MerryG Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Okay, I know this probably isn't reasonable. But after the latest entertainingly stupid thread was started by a Christian in the Lion's Den (http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/60629-first-question/), I find myself wishing ... * That every true-believing christian who signs up here would have to agree to certain rules. * That those rules would include agreeing to answer every question put to him or her -- no drive-bys, no less-than-artful dodging. * That they would have to sign a notice affirming that they understand that we are not just poor, benighted ignorant non-believers, but are actual EX-christians who've already read the bible and heard all the standard christian cant ad infinitum and ad nauseum. I'm not saying they'd be forbidden to quote and cant away to their heart's content. I'm just saying they'd have to acknowledge upon joining that THEY know that WE ALREADY KNOW THAT STUFF. * That they'd sign an agreement to at least read or view all our counter arguments, including those presented via links and videos. (Again, not that they'd have to agree with anything. Just that, if they expect us to listen to them, they'd have to agree, as a condition of being allowed on a forum where their religion has caused endless pain and grief, to listen to us.) Okay, I know. Not going to happen. But I am so sick of these smug people coming in here, time and again, talking down to us. I am so sick of them making the same old, same old arguments. So sick of them always being unwilling to do any homework (because after all, they're RIGHT and we're WRONG, so why even bother finding out where we're coming from). So I know it's wishful thinking. But still, I wish, I wish ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yeah, they're really irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted January 24, 2014 I feel you MerryG. I've often toyed with the idea that christians who sign up should be required to read at least 30 deconversion stories in the Testimonies forum before they have posting privileges. That way, at least they would know who they are dealing with before we have to start dealing with them. It would be unfair, though, I suppose. Besides, although I could be wrong and will promptly admit it if I am, I don't think that particular horse is as iron as he believes himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I wish it too but you are just not going to get a fundie to admit anything that makes their religion look bad. They have to start deconversion before they are ready for that. That is why we get so many of these authentic believers who really think they know everything because God is on their side and they must be in direct combat with Satan . . . because how else is it possible that they are so flustered and stumped by our questions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 25, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2014 They may see something here that eventually makes them think. Many are too far gone, but most of us were in that place at some point; something had to start us questioning and thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 * That those rules would include agreeing to answer every question put to him or her -- no drive-bys, no less-than-artful dodging. To be fair to the christians, this is really not possible. Epicurus' "Problem of Evil" has been waiting for an answer for nearly 1800 years. They come here unknowingly wielding the proverbial knife in a gunfight. I think that they really have no clue about what they are about to go up against. Even if they had lurked on this site for some time prior to signing up, they really believe they have the holy spirit on their side. They think that they will have the divine help and inspiration to succeed where their predecessors have failed. I can only hope that occasionally, a few of the christians that wander into our midst begin to finally ask themselves the hard questions that we had to face. Maybe their experience here will be the first step on their path to freedom. That might be hoping for too much, but it is why I think that The Lion's Den is one of the most important forums on this site. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodsy Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Maybe they come here because they unknowingly have a nagging doubt but still want to perform their "spiritual warfare" to see if everything still works. Been there, done that, didn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Maybe they come here because they unknowingly have a nagging doubt but still want to perform their "spiritual warfare" to see if everything still works. Been there, done that, didn't work I hope that's true, Woodsy. I hope what Florduh and WarriorPoet suggest is also true. And I do see that the Lion's Den is an important forum -- not because the glassy-eyed true believers, trolls, and would-be martyrs who enter it might actually learn something -- but because others (christian and non) with more functional minds get such a perfect gilmpse of how religion crumbles under even minor questioning. I also understand that some Ex-C's welcome those discussions as a chance to sharpen their own intellectual skills (though I don't see how much sharpening is gained trying to debate people like ironhorse; it's like taking a well-honed sword into battle against a bag of marshmallows). I also realize that I should personally avoid the Lion's Den because mindless proselytizers horrify me so much. Still, to whatever extent Ex-C serves as a place to heal from the damage inflicted by bible religion, to whatever extent it serves as a place to feel safe against ignorant prejudices ... it always seems less so every time one of these preacherman-trolls brings his marshmallowy smugness in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I also understand that some Ex-C's welcome those discussions as a chance to sharpen their own intellectual skills (though I don't see how much sharpening is gained trying to debate people like ironhorse; it's like taking a well-honed sword into battle against a bag of marshmallows). Ive found most christians don't know how debate. Ive had to explain what a straw man and a red herring are to a few of them. They all are like iron horse in some way or another. By engaging with them here I learn how they think and I am better able to counter them when they knock on my door or stop me in the grocery store parking lot. During my last religious conversation I realized I can almost predict what they are going to say before they say it based on what has been said already and can quickly formulate a return volley before they even finish speaking. This seems to really confuse some of them, cause from their perspective I haven't had time to think about the "great depth of ideas" they just presented to me… lol That is a direct result of reading so much here over the years. I am so glad this site exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Ive found most christians don't know how debate. Ive had to explain what a straw man and a red herring are to a few of them. You can also have a logically sound argument, but that doesn't mean it is a correct one. That's why it's important to keep testing and questioning. Science stands up to this. Religion, not so much. I've got such a "bless your heart" feeling about the Christians who register, post something like ironhorse did, and really think that's going to be effective in any way. They think they're on third base having hit a triple, but they haven't left the dugout yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It’s easy to forget what is was like when we were born again dysfunctional members of the collective, but I think it’s important to try and remember who we were then and how we thought before we agree to engage a believer. I understand I’m stating the obvious, but sometimes the obvious may not be as obvious as we assume. Christians do not come here seeking information. The come here to dispense information in the hope that something they post will trigger some deeply buried “truth” that one of us has forgotten about, and that will be the beginning of repentance and ultimately a “lost sheep” will be found and returned to the herd. Engaging an indoctrinated person intellectually is pointless. They simply do not process information that challenges their beliefs in logical or rational ways. Lest we forget, they are brainwashed members of a cult. Therefore, engaging a born again believer is a futile pointless exercise and a complete waste of time. You aren’t going to change their mind and they aren’t going to change yours. So, what’s the point? The only time to engage a born again believer is when they are honestly asking questions about their faith because they have developed doubt. At that point, biblically speaking, they are “good spoil” because cracks have developed in their faith and their minds have opened, if only a little bit. When that happens they are much more likely to actually be receptive to new information. Ignore them and they eventually go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Seems to me that the vast majority that come here are woefully uneducated (even about their own book) and have many faulty preconceptions about us Ex-christians. Yet, they plow right in without any examination. I would think when going into 'enemy territory' it would be prudent to get the lay of the land and do some scouting first. They wouldn't last long in reconnaissance. I wonder how well they fare when visiting a foreign country? I'm sure the faux pas are excessive and embarrassing, if not dangerous. (Darwin Awards for everyone!) Sorry, couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MadameX Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The come here to dispense information in the hope that something they post will trigger some deeply buried “truth” that one of us has forgotten about, and that will be the beginning of repentance and ultimately a “lost sheep” will be found and returned to the herd. Please tell me about this motivation, how it works from the other side. I don't really understand it. Most Christians are indifferent about what others believe. Are these proselytizers hoping to score points with the boss in the sky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Are these proselytizers hoping to score points with the boss in the sky? Can't speak for Geezer. But from my own observation they're definitely hoping to score points with the skyboss. If they can't score points by "converting the heathen" or "bringing lost sheep back to the fold," then they're equally happy to score points by becoming "christian martyrs." Martyrs without any actual blood, suffering, or any other icky stuff, of course. Martyrs in the cozy, modern, narcissistic "I have a special relationship with Jesus and those nasty Ex-Cs hurt my poor feelings" sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Seems to me that the vast majority that come here are woefully uneducated (even about their own book) and have many faulty preconceptions about us Ex-christians. Yet, they plow right in without any examination. I would think when going into 'enemy territory' it would be prudent to get the lay of the land and do some scouting first. They wouldn't last long in reconnaissance. I wonder how well they fare when visiting a foreign country? I'm sure the faux pas are excessive and embarrassing, if not dangerous. (Darwin Awards for everyone!) Sorry, couldn't resist. And a big amen, sistah. I agree it's the lack of education that gets me -- not only the lack of it but the absolute, stunning, prideful confidence that they don't need it. With a handful of carefully selected bible verses they'll either conquer the world or earn martyr points for tossing their little quotes to an unfriendly audience. Research? Facts? As one of our current trolls declared, that's all irrelevant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 What annoys me most is that they don't answer a lot, and of course they can't answer everything, but it makes their discussions rather pointless. You ask them a serious question, like, why this version of christianity? Everything is just dumb blind faith which, when dealing with topics that demand but do not have enough evidence to discuss either way, just become opportunities to reaffirm the subscription to their unfounded belief. I wouldn't even mind if they admitted that their belief is unfounded and rather irrational, and that there is no logical reason to believe it, but they knowingly choose to. That I could accept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 ignorance is expected from indoctrinated people (being indoctrinated, a person's logic is less than a lobotomised mentally challenge cockroaches) I also cannot stand their arrogance, act like they have some secret information directly from god, and they masked it with "I'm just being proud" well, to speak with such an authority about something while nobody knows the truth is an arrogance, not being proud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The come here to dispense information in the hope that something they post will trigger some deeply buried “truth” that one of us has forgotten about, and that will be the beginning of repentance and ultimately a “lost sheep” will be found and returned to the herd. Please tell me about this motivation, how it works from the other side. I don't really understand it. Most Christians are indifferent about what others believe. Are these proselytizers hoping to score points with the boss in the sky? MerryG’s response was correct. The conservative versions of Christianity believe their primary mission is to save the lost and restore those who have left the faith as per the great commission. Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The come here to dispense information in the hope that something they post will trigger some deeply buried “truth” that one of us has forgotten about, and that will be the beginning of repentance and ultimately a “lost sheep” will be found and returned to the herd. Please tell me about this motivation, how it works from the other side. I don't really understand it. Most Christians are indifferent about what others believe. Are these proselytizers hoping to score points with the boss in the sky? a typicall heavengate pastor actually think like that they are really proud to say I have x thousands members (hundreds is humiliating), as reference, jesus fed 5000 thousand peoples they are also proud to said I already baptised X thousand people, y hundred non-christians, z numbers of famous people (celebrities, politicians, etc) soo in some sense yes, it's really like a game where the heavengate priest tries to make the highest score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I feel you MerryG. I've often toyed with the idea that christians who sign up should be required to read at least 30 deconversion stories in the Testimonies forum before they have posting privileges. That way, at least they would know who they are dealing with before we have to start dealing with them. It would be unfair, though, I suppose. Besides, although I could be wrong and will promptly admit it if I am, I don't think that particular horse is as iron as he believes himself. While it might be difficult to implement this (e.g. what's to stop them from just registering as ex-Christians), in principle I think this would be a great idea. There are former Christians out there who merely leave Christianity out of intellectual laziness, but I've found that people who actually label themselves as ex-Christians as opposed to lapsed Christians, and who bother to seek out a community of ex-Christians like this one, have much more thoughtful reasons for leaving the religion. Perhaps some of the Christians who come here think that we are merely lapsed in our faith. Then again, I've always assumed that most of the "Christians" on this forum are merely trolls, and may not even be Christians at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'll double up on WarriorPoet's "knife to a gun fight" analogy. That, to me, is one of the best things about the Lion's Den: if you're going to wade into an EX Christian site, you'd better have your best arguments available. Yet, every time, all they do is make themselves, and their own arguments look tremendously ineffective, ignorant, and weak. Arguably, those annoying, question-dodging Christians are doing far more to undermine their faith than anyone else is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts