SilentLoner Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What I'm always trying to tell people who use the term "militant" atheist. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying. Yeah right, religion of peace. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying. Oh Ninurta, you and your obsessions! You are well on your way to being a good muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthseeker4 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 i don't really believe in man-created religion but i still somehow believe we are more than just smarter apes. i believe in doing good to another human, so we are not just plain selfish creatures. In fact, i have found love and help here on ex-C. it really gets my mind going and i know as most of you are wary to sign on to any new "religion". anyhow you folks are great, and any thoughts that may help me along would be superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 i don't really believe in man-created religion but i still somehow believe we are more than just smarter apes. i believe in doing good to another human, so we are not just plain selfish creatures. In fact, i have found love and help here on ex-C. it really gets my mind going and i know as most of you are wary to sign on to any new "religion". anyhow you folks are great, and any thoughts that may help me along would be superb. Since you are open to other peoples' opinions on this subject, I would suggest looking into the subject of Comparative Psychology. The false dichotomy that creationists have repeated about humans not being animals because we care for one another is not really fair to animals. Many social animals work together in teams. When I put the dogs out in the yard and they are hungry, what is stopping them from eating one another? Is it perhaps their loyalty and affection for one another? Or, is it the big spook in the sky? Creationists put humans on a pedestal and animals down below, but animals are just as capable of love and altruism as we are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 My point was a fairly straightforward one. It's funny how you make assumptions of what I think about Islam, or assumptions about me, because I'm pointing out that you are wrong about something. I can use both the Quran and I'm sure the Hadiths as well to point out why terrorism is actually against Islam. Maybe I'd let your inaccuracies go unquestioned, if it weren't that in my town a man was kidnapped and imprisoned for a crime he did not commit. And when the actual criminal died, because we was imprisoned without trial, for his religion and having a similar name, they still didn't let him go. We have a paranoia as a culture about muslims, and some of peoples fears are founded. Though if you did a little bit of research, you'd see that mass murderers exist around the world, and the only role religion plays in their murderous rampages, is their justifications and seekings of grandiosity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Yeah the whole murder the gays, murder raped women, murder apostates, and mass murder of hundreds, and thousands of people, without muslims denouncing said atrocities (many of them cheering them) doesnt help matters. Maybe once muslims stop acting like rabid animals, people will lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Yeah the whole murder the gays, murder raped women, murder apostates, and mass murder of hundreds, and thousands of people, without muslims denouncing said atrocities (many of them cheering them) doesnt help matters. Maybe once muslims stop acting like rabid animals, people will lighten up. Who are you looking for an official statement from? The Pope of Islam? He doesn't exist. As far as the issue of gays and rape victims, it really does depend on what place you go to and how ignorant the people are there. And its not against the "thoughts" but the "acts" of being gay, which honestly, isn't much different than how we secular countries deal with 20 year olds that have consentual intercourse with someone 16. We imprison them. It's not right and needs to change, but that's not what is being described above. If you wish to lump them together. then you MUST lump together the jews killed in stalinist russia under "atheism", which we both agree doesn't make sense. As far as apostates, that's shitty too. Christians would do all three of the above if they were still given that change, just look at subsaharan africa. Most muslims do denounce the way ignorant people in their midst act, and they don't act like rabid animals. Though honestly, I think they should do more to point out how people are judging them for acts they didn't commit, as people like you need to be challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Oh my Allah! I honestly thought you were just being an attention seeking joker about this islam stuff. It seems like I was mistaken. Either that, or it is growing on you like a bad funk. Leave this crap behind, and live your life. Islam is not really a peaceful religion any more than christianity is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Why any free person would willingly become a slave to an imaginary dictator, whose messengers pronounce what direction to piss is beyond me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Oh my Allah! I honestly thought you were just being an attention seeking joker about this islam stuff. It seems like I was mistaken. Either that, or it is growing on you like a bad funk. Leave this crap behind, and live your life. Islam is not really a peaceful religion any more than christianity is. If I'm not actually a muslim, does that mean that I can't still be honest about a subject? Does that mean that I must jump on the bandwagon? I never claimed any religion was a "religion of peace", what I did claim, was that the "religion of war" ideologies have more to do with the political motives of the adherents than the religions themselves. Did I not say that before? You may not have been on the forum yet, but it is true. You don't wish to have an honest discussion, and I get that. Though if you want to address the concerns like I do of ignorance and oppression, then you don't do it the way you are doing it. What you do would be devisive, it'll be a great rallying call to send believers to oppression, and to send believers into radicalization further, but it won't by any means get them to have an honest discussion with you. If you want to have an honest discussion, you meet someone where they are. You discuss your thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and if they don't want to hear it, you move on. That doesn't mean allow them to stone innocent people if you can stop it, but it means that you meet people where they are at, and try to persuade them warmly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Oh my Allah! I honestly thought you were just being an attention seeking joker about this islam stuff. It seems like I was mistaken. Either that, or it is growing on you like a bad funk. Leave this crap behind, and live your life. Islam is not really a peaceful religion any more than christianity is. If I'm not actually a muslim, does that mean that I can't still be honest about a subject? Does that mean that I must jump on the bandwagon? I never claimed any religion was a "religion of peace", what I did claim, was that the "religion of war" ideologies have more to do with the political motives of the adherents than the religions themselves. Did I not say that before? You may not have been on the forum yet, but it is true. You don't wish to have an honest discussion, and I get that. Though if you want to address the concerns like I do of ignorance and oppression, then you don't do it the way you are doing it. What you do would be devisive, it'll be a great rallying call to send believers to oppression, and to send believers into radicalization further, but it won't by any means get them to have an honest discussion with you. If you want to have an honest discussion, you meet someone where they are. You discuss your thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and if they don't want to hear it, you move on. That doesn't mean allow them to stone innocent people if you can stop it, but it means that you meet people where they are at, and try to persuade them warmly. Geesh, this from a guy who has no respect for using politically correct language. I'm not the welcome wagon for Muslim assimilation, ya know! I'm on an ex-christian forum where being snarky about monotheism is acceptable behaviour. Where's your sense of humour these days? Do I have to point out to you that you've contradicted yourself up there in bold? Why, would I need to be concerned that muslims would be stoning innocent people, again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Oh my Allah! I honestly thought you were just being an attention seeking joker about this islam stuff. It seems like I was mistaken. Either that, or it is growing on you like a bad funk. Leave this crap behind, and live your life. Islam is not really a peaceful religion any more than christianity is. If I'm not actually a muslim, does that mean that I can't still be honest about a subject? Does that mean that I must jump on the bandwagon? I never claimed any religion was a "religion of peace", what I did claim, was that the "religion of war" ideologies have more to do with the political motives of the adherents than the religions themselves. Did I not say that before? You may not have been on the forum yet, but it is true. You don't wish to have an honest discussion, and I get that. Though if you want to address the concerns like I do of ignorance and oppression, then you don't do it the way you are doing it. What you do would be devisive, it'll be a great rallying call to send believers to oppression, and to send believers into radicalization further, but it won't by any means get them to have an honest discussion with you. If you want to have an honest discussion, you meet someone where they are. You discuss your thoughts in a clear and concise manner, and if they don't want to hear it, you move on. That doesn't mean allow them to stone innocent people if you can stop it, but it means that you meet people where they are at, and try to persuade them warmly. Geesh, this from a guy who has no respect for using politically correct language. I'm not the welcome wagon for Muslim assimilation, ya know! I'm on an ex-christian forum where being snarky about monotheism is acceptable behaviour. Where's your sense of humour these days? Do I have to point out to you that you've contradicted yourself up there in bold? Why, would I need to be concerned that muslims would be stoning innocent people, again? It's not anything you specifically said that irked me. Honestly, It's exactly what I said. If you want to have dialougue with the believers, and you want to put an end to the ignorance, we also need to do our part and try to reach a nonjudgemental stance, especially when its difficult, especially when we're being judged. Rant about them all you want, I'll still address points where people are inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying. tbh, no one knows what is the genuine islam, genuine christians, genuine buddha, genuine religion x, etc The problem is the figure is not there anymore, so that religion has been splitting into many denominations, sects, brotherhood, cults over thousand of years, generations, cultures, locations, etc one can proclaim himself a islam/christian/ buddhist etc and it is ridiculous to think that my version is the most genuine one and person x is not a real islam/christian/buddhist etc because nobody knows what is the real one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Let's define militant first. Because atheists are way ahead of their monotheistic brethren if being militant means having others see one's point of view gently at first, and then later by force. At least, that's how militant atheists used to be with their politics. Militant Christians were that way too, until they found their way into politics. This all happened in the last century. Either one of them is better than militant Muslims, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 If Christian nations were treated the way some of the me countries and it's people's fought back using the only means available while wrapping their motives in their religion, would they be terrorists or REVOLUTIONARIES? (Didn't mean to use caps) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying. tbh, no one knows what is the genuine islam, genuine christians, genuine buddha, genuine religion x, etc The problem is the figure is not there anymore, so that religion has been splitting into many denominations, sects, brotherhood, cults over thousand of years, generations, cultures, locations, etc one can proclaim himself a islam/christian/ buddhist etc and it is ridiculous to think that my version is the most genuine one and person x is not a real islam/christian/buddhist etc because nobody knows what is the real one I guess this is true, but I was referring to the Islam as practiced by the vast majority of believers. It actually is quite peaceful when compared to what is always assumed on this board to be the norm. It just seems unjust. If Christian nations were treated the way some of the me countries and it's people's fought back using the only means available while wrapping their motives in their religion, would they be terrorists or REVOLUTIONARIES? (Didn't mean to use caps) This is true. But it must be worse, they dare stand up to the glorious west! The supreme race of northern europeans (predominantly)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Just remembered the irish. They were oppressed for a thousand years and when they fight back, they did so behind religion and we're indeed labeled terrorists, yet their religion got a free pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Although I'd say that there is an element to Koranic teaching that is definitely poisonous, there is certainly a lot of diversity in Islam. The Sufis stand out to me with their focus on love-- they have also been on the receiving end of persecution many times at the hands of Sunnis. Here's some poetry of the Sufi Rumi if anyone is interested http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/rumipoetry1.html Some Christians are jerks, some Muslims are jerks, some atheists are jerks. You have St. Francis and Torquemada. You have Hafez of Shiraz and the Taliban. You have Dawkins and Stalin. While it's true enough that Stalin's problem was not his atheism but his virulent anti-humanism and delusional form of communism, he was an atheist nonetheless. (And also true enough, he was completely justified in his rejection of Islam and Christianity-- he just added some non-religious delusions when he cast off his religious ones.) Personally, I think that humanism is much more important than atheism. Dawkins not only sees that traditional Abrahamic religions are BS, but he's trying to make the world a better place. And succeeding I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninurta Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Just remembered the irish. They were oppressed for a thousand years and when they fight back, they did so behind religion and we're indeed labeled terrorists, yet their religion got a free pass. This is true. Although I'd say that there is an element to Koranic teaching that is definitely poisonous, there is certainly a lot of diversity in Islam. The Sufis stand out to me with their focus on love-- they have also been on the receiving end of persecution many times at the hands of Sunnis. Here's some poetry of the Sufi Rumi if anyone is interested http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/rumipoetry1.html Some Christians are jerks, some Muslims are jerks, some atheists are jerks. You have St. Francis and Torquemada. You have Hafez of Shiraz and the Taliban. You have Dawkins and Stalin. While it's true enough that Stalin's problem was not his atheism but his virulent anti-humanism and delusional form of communism, he was an atheist nonetheless. (And also true enough, he was completely justified in his rejection of Islam and Christianity-- he just added some non-religious delusions when he cast off his religious ones.) Personally, I think that humanism is much more important than atheism. Dawkins not only sees that traditional Abrahamic religions are BS, but he's trying to make the world a better place. And succeeding I think... The taliban are a drug cartel, they're about as Islamic as the mafia is a catholic organization. They even drink and gamble, engage in prostitution and break nearly every islamic law there is. As far as Hafez, I'll have to look them up. And the "sunnis" are a mixed bunch, and different states have used sectarian differences as a justification for persecution, which in the end, has had nothing to do with religion otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 But are "true Muslims" (however you define that) better than "true Christians" (however you define that)? There are undoubtedly many kind and just Muslims in the world-- but there is no such thing as a "pure" or "undefiled" Islam IMO. You can go back to the life of Mohammed or the Koran if you want-- it's not all peace, kindness, and justice there either. Wife-beating, oppression of unbelievers, threatening people with gruesome tortures, holy war, belief in "jinn," are all part of the Koran. Following Islamic law is not always a good thing (to say the least) IMO... From Sura 9: Attitudes toward non-believers “Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.” From Sura 22: Tortures in hell “Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, the angels will drag them back, saying: ‘Taste the torment of Hell-fire!’” From Sura 22: Hang yourself if you doubt Islam “If anyone thinks that Allah will not give victory to His apostle in this world and in the world to come, let him tie a rope to the ceiling of his house and hang himself.” From Sura 7: Allah predestines men and jinn for hell “The man whom Allah guides is rightly guided, but he who is led astray by Allah shall surely be lost. We have predestined for Hell many jinn and many men.” Sura 66: Make war on unbelievers "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.” Sura 4: Men should beat disobedient women “Men have authority over women because Allah made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme.” 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 11, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 11, 2014 But are "true Muslims" (however you define that) better than "true Christians" (however you define that)? There are undoubtedly many kind and just Muslims in the world-- but there is no such thing as a "pure" or "undefiled" Islam IMO. You can go back to the life of Mohammed or the Koran if you want-- it's not all peace, kindness, and justice there either. Wife-beating, oppression of unbelievers, threatening people with gruesome tortures, holy war, belief in "jinn," are all part of the Koran. Following Islamic law is not always a good thing (to say the least) IMO... From Sura 9: Attitudes toward non-believers “Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.” From Sura 22: Tortures in hell “Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, the angels will drag them back, saying: ‘Taste the torment of Hell-fire!’” From Sura 22: Hang yourself if you doubt Islam “If anyone thinks that Allah will not give victory to His apostle in this world and in the world to come, let him tie a rope to the ceiling of his house and hang himself.” From Sura 7: Allah predestines men and jinn for hell “The man whom Allah guides is rightly guided, but he who is led astray by Allah shall surely be lost. We have predestined for Hell many jinn and many men.” Sura 66: Make war on unbelievers "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.” Sura 4: Men should beat disobedient women “Men have authority over women because Allah made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme.” The apologists and politically correct will simply ignore those parts of the Koran. They will compare/justify it against the Bible. They will say the majority of Muslims do not follow such commands. Unfortunately, too many Muslims do not ignore those commands from Allah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Yeah, fuck nuance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 11, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 11, 2014 Nuance? It's plainly written words that are clearly followed by a not insignificant number of believers. How does nuance come into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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