The Suffering Of Jesus

[chrisdownunder]

The first thing you hear christians say about jesus is how much he suffered for you on the cross. Ok has no one in the world ever suffered more than jesus has? No wonder so many christians lack sympathy and compassion, because everyone's pain and suffering is negated by the suffering messiah.

[MerryG]

This is something that's bothered me, too. Jesus (IF he existed and IF the accounts of his crucifixion are true; both doubtful) suffered hellishly for three hours or so. Longer with the whippings, cross-carrying, etc. But others have suffered years of hell on earth in concentration camps or prison. Or weeks or months of sadistic tortures at the hands of psychopaths. Or lifetimes of painful, debilitating disease. Heck, even a bunch of the church's own saintly martyrs have suffered more gruesomely and longer than Jesus did.

 

While I wouldn't wish the sufferings of crucifixion on anybody, they're not even close to the worst that humans have endured. Of course, we're supposed to believe Jesus suffered worse than any mere human in the same circumstance would have because he was so divinely sensitive and all.

 

Anyhow, since the whole business of suffering and dying for our sins is nonsense, it probably doesn't much matter. But yes, I agree it's one of the things that makes many (not all) christians so smugly insensitive to the real pain of real people.

[chrisdownunder]

This is something that's bothered me, too. Jesus (IF he existed and IF the accounts of his crucifixion are true; both doubtful) suffered hellishly for three hours or so. Longer with the whippings, cross-carrying, etc. But others have suffered years of hell on earth in concentration camps or prison. Or weeks or months of sadistic tortures at the hands of psychopaths. Or lifetimes of painful, debilitating disease. Heck, even a bunch of the church's own saintly martyrs have suffered more gruesomely and longer than Jesus did.While I wouldn't wish the sufferings of crucifixion on anybody, they're not even close to the worst that humans have endured. Of course, we're supposed to believe Jesus suffered worse than any mere human in the same circumstance would have because he was so divinely sensitive and all.Anyhow, since the whole business of suffering and dying for our sins is nonsense, it probably doesn't much matter. But yes, I agree it's one of the things that makes many (not all) christians so smugly insensitive to the real pain of real people.

Yes, but then why? Did these people who constructed these elaborate story's not foresee the terrible consequences they would unleash on the world.

[MerryG]

Of course they didn't foresee. Can mythmakers ever foresee what will become of their myths? Do people who crave power over others (as the christian mythmakers obviously did) even care about the long-term consequences? Do people with agendas even want to look honestly at where their agendas might lead?

[chrisdownunder]

Of course they didn't foresee. Can mythmakers ever foresee what will become of their myths? Do people who crave power over others (as the christian mythmakers obviously did) even care about the long-term consequences? Do people with agendas even want to look honestly at where their agendas might lead?

Are we just fucked as a species? I mean what the fuck are we all doing.

[Guest afireinside]

We are Homofuckedis Erectus Chris. We are destroying ourselves and our planet because Jack And The Beanstalks followers, Moby Dicks followers and Goldilocks' followers can't live in harmony cause their fairy tales don't agree.

 

As far as Jesus' suffering goes: If a company CEO goes to work on the factory floor for an afternoon who the fuck cares? Billions of others have done so with no fanfare or recognition. Big deal, a couple hours of hardship while billions have suffered from conception til death and apparently into eternity......

[Ellinas]

The Christian claim is not that the physical suffering was greater than any other's, but that what was suffered was the eternal punishment of god's eternal justice.  When I used to preach, I used to rationalize this by saying that, as he was the eternal son, so he could suffer all of that eternity even in the space of a mere three hours.  To be honest, it never really convinced me, but I couldn't think of any other way of justifying this nonsense.

 

The reason Christianity hides its' vaunted tenderness and love so effectively is because it denies any worth to humanity.  If we are worthless, our pains and sufferings are irrelevant.  And, of course, the Christian can always (if not actually admitting this) take comfort in the "I'm O,K, so stuff everyone else" mentality.  (I was going to right "'I'm alright, Jack' mentality" but I'm unsure whether that idiom would mean anything outside of the U.K.)

[xtify]

We are Homofuckedis Erectus Chris. We are destroying ourselves and our planet because Jack And The Beanstalks followers, Moby Dicks followers and Goldilocks' followers can't live in harmony cause their fairy tales don't agree.

 

As far as Jesus' suffering goes: If a company CEO goes to work on the factory floor for an afternoon who the fuck cares? Billions of others have done so with no fanfare or recognition. Big deal, a couple hours of hardship while billions have suffered from conception til death and apparently into eternity......

 

Good point.  Had jesus thought for even one moment that his suffering was permanent, he would have lacked faith.  He knew it was temporary and that he'd be back in heaven after a few short days. When he got back, he knew he would be King of Kings for all eternity.  

 

When it comes to pain, there is physical suffering and psychological suffering, and combinations of both.  But, considering jesus was never without hope, he could have never experienced psychological suffering the way humans do. 

[mymistake]

Optimums Prime suffered more than Jesus.  He got killed and resurrected more than Jesus too.

 

 

While he never died you have to admit detective John McClane suffered more than Jesus.

[Guest afireinside]

^exactly, it's a token gesture at best, an insult at worst.

[Guest afireinside]

Optimums Prime suffered more than Jesus. He got killed and resurrected more than Jesus too.

Haha Optimus Prime and the 12 Autobots. Came to earth to resume humanity from the clutches of Starscream. In 2000 years time this could just be the religion we follow.

[midniterider]

Transformers are much better fiction than the bible.

[Guest afireinside]

And now a reading from the first letter to Bumblebee chapter 2 verse 9; "be transformed by the renewing of your circuitry". And Chapter 6 verse 3 "brethren be on your guard against your enemy Bruticus who roams around like a roaring Decepticon looking for someone to disassemble"

 

Let us pray-dear Optimus who art in Galaxy 326491 mighty be thy name, we ask of you to bless our hybrid souls and and lead us into victory over the Decepticons who war against us, in your Prime name we ask- all who love Optimus say it-Amen

 

We are now taking up a love offering for an extension to our new intergalactic space port, The Lord is good and blessing us immensely Primealujah!! brothers and sisters please give generously or Optimus will be less than impressed!

[Deva]

Much like what Ellinas said, I was taught that it was not crucifixion alone that make the suffering of Jesus extraordinary. It was because he took on our sins. Only God as a perfect and totally sinless being can experience how awful this was, and then he was (this makes no sense!) cut off from the rest of the Trinity, abandoned by God.

 

This really makes kids feel good about themselves (sarcasm).

 

Sin is this thing that is so horrible to God, its like the ultimate torture.  This nonsense actually was persuasive to me at one time - because everyone else I knew believed it and I was just a child.

[chrisdownunder]

Yes, I always thought that when christians said "Jesus suffered for you on the cross" they ment he suffered for all the worlds sin while on the cross.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I understood things similarly to both Deva and Ellinas.  It was not the physical torture that caused jesus to suffer so much as his innocence being awash in the eternal sin of humanity.  jesus became our sin which was detestable to his holiness.  Of course, if he hadn't set us up to fail in the garden of eden, then he wouldn't have had to go through all that; so it's kind of hard for me to feel sorry for him.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Sin is this thing that is so horrible to God, its like the ultimate torture.  This nonsense actually was persuasive to me at one time - because everyone else I knew believed it and I was just a child.

 

When you look at it that way, it makes all of this make even less sense than it did before. Since God is supposed to be eternal and all-knowing, there would have had to have been a time when it was just him that existed and nothing else, therefore, it was he that invented sin and decided what was bad and what was good (though some of what he defines as bad hurts only him and some of what he defines as good is only good for him, which tells us a lot about this deity's character and state of mental health).

 

What is even worse is that he allowed humans to be born with a sinful nature after Adam and Eve, in their ignorance and poor understanding of certain concepts he warned them about, disobeyed. Since, as the Bible clearly states, all humans have sinned, because we are incapable of not sinning (due to a sinful nature that we were born with and did not choose to have), and he knows the future (including every sin we will commit before we're born), then he has basically hurt himself.

 

If an all-knowing, omnipotent god abuses himself (whether it's on purpose or because he's just plain stupid is never revealed) and then blames the creations that he designed in such a way that they'd end up hurting him down the road, then he has some serious psychological issues. For such an entity to be that sick in the mind, he can hardly be called perfect, therefore his temporary sacrifice and regeneration of a part of himself is completely pointless and not worth much.

 

Trying to understand all of this with god-glasses on is very likely to give someone a headache...

[BrotherJosh]

Sisyphus is suffering worse than Jesus did. Imagine the maddening futility of eternally rolling a boulder uphill only for it to roll back down again. 

[Neverlandrut]

To be completely honest, as much as I feel like I understood and as much revelation as I felt I had, I still could never really understand why Jesus had to suffer and die for our sins. I get that it was substitutionary atonement, dying our death (spiritually) so we wouldn't have to. Blah blah. But still, I always thought that god could have come up with a better way that didn't involve anyone needing to suffer. Once I put the Jesus story in historical cultural context, it makes sense that his followers would have viewed his death as the ultimate sin sacrifice. That's the type of religion Judaism was, a sacrificial religion. It would have been very enticing, the idea that Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that we would never have to make one again.

[themonkeyman]

This is something that's bothered me, too. Jesus (IF he existed and IF the accounts of his crucifixion are true; both doubtful) suffered hellishly for three hours or so. Longer with the whippings, cross-carrying, etc. But others have suffered years of hell on earth in concentration camps or prison. Or weeks or months of sadistic tortures at the hands of psychopaths. Or lifetimes of painful, debilitating disease. Heck, even a bunch of the church's own saintly martyrs have suffered more gruesomely and longer than Jesus did. While I wouldn't wish the sufferings of crucifixion on anybody, they're not even close to the worst that humans have endured. Of course, we're supposed to believe Jesus suffered worse than any mere human in the same circumstance would have because he was so divinely sensitive and all. Anyhow, since the whole business of suffering and dying for our sins is nonsense, it probably doesn't much matter. But yes, I agree it's one of the things that makes many (not all) christians so smugly insensitive to the real pain of real people.

 

Hey,

 

This is what I never understood about General Christianity,  Jesus supposidly had more suffering than anyone else,  I am sure those victims in Guantanimo Bay would disagree with that.  Jesus was punished for 2 days with a Whip and a Crown of thorns.  He was then nailed to a cross which again was a common occurance in Galilee.

 

People in North Korea are subject to worse in a Labour Camp,  Infact in North Korea it is not only the person punished but their family relatives and cousins including any children.

 

On the whole Jesus got let of pretty lightly with two days of torture,  Christians argue that he was innocent however that is only from a biblical perspective where as Jews and Romans had a different view.

 

Jesus who was also supposed to be God surely would know that no suffering in this life would compare to his heavenly realm so for him I am sure it was something very minor in the time of eternity.

 

Strangely him being put on a cross and a whip and crown of thorns is enough to enable a person to forgive all humanity?  If Jesus needed to be devine to take the sins of us all then why did he need to die?  Infact even if he needed to die why did he need to die at the hands of the Romans?

[themonkeyman]

Of course they didn't foresee. Can mythmakers ever foresee what will become of their myths? Do people who crave power over others (as the christian mythmakers obviously did) even care about the long-term consequences? Do people with agendas even want to look honestly at where their agendas might lead?

 

Theres a reason Celsus picked at the fact that Jesus openly blasted anyone who was intrested in knowledge and said that people had to be as children .e.g.  Ignorant

 

Just sadly afew cleaver people centuries later started believing what was in essence bull shit.

[themonkeyman]

The Christian claim is not that the physical suffering was greater than any other's, but that what was suffered was the eternal punishment of god's eternal justice.  When I used to preach, I used to rationalize this by saying that, as he was the eternal son, so he could suffer all of that eternity even in the space of a mere three hours.  To be honest, it never really convinced me, but I couldn't think of any other way of justifying this nonsense.

 

The reason Christianity hides its' vaunted tenderness and love so effectively is because it denies any worth to humanity.  If we are worthless, our pains and sufferings are irrelevant.  And, of course, the Christian can always (if not actually admitting this) take comfort in the "I'm O,K, so stuff everyone else" mentality.  (I was going to right "'I'm alright, Jack' mentality" but I'm unsure whether that idiom would mean anything outside of the U.K.)

 

If we look at this logically - Considering we are dealing with the eternal realm,  Lets remove the word eternal as in and of itself means its stateless and never ending or beginning.

 

Basically Jesus suffered Gods Just Punishment that he would put upon all man kind.

 

Oddly enough Jesus suffered for 2 days tops and then rose again so either this means that God did not accept this as punishment or that it only takes 2 days for any one human to atone for the sins of all other past / present and future?

[xtify]

The idea that jesus was sinless and blameless, and therefore was a perfect atoning sacrifice can easily be disputed.  If you take the NT literally, there are several examples when jesus sinned against both the Levitical law and the Roman law.  He was neither blameless nor sinless, according to his own book.

 

Examples of his sins from the Gospels:

He says the laws about consumption of foods don't matter

He does his work on the sabbath

He lies to the Romans about only teaching in the temple

He steals a donkey

He trashes the holy temple

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

The idea that jesus was sinless and blameless, and therefore was a perfect atoning sacrifice can easily be disputed.  If you take the NT literally, there are several examples when jesus sinned against both the Levitical law and the Roman law.  He was neither blameless nor sinless, according to his own book.

 

Examples of his sins from the Gospels:

He says the laws about consumption of foods don't matter

He does his work on the sabbath

He lies to the Romans about only teaching in the temple

He steals a donkey

He trashes the holy temple

 

Though it's impossible to get around all of those with apologetics, there are some that can be "refuted" using apologetic excuses techniques.

 

2. Since Jesus is actually Yahweh in human form, the laws about the Sabbath only apply to humans, therefore, because he is Yahweh (God) in human flesh, he has not sinned.

 

4. Since Jesus is actually Yahweh (God) in human form, he already owns the donkey, therefore, he could not have stolen it.

 

5. Since Jesus is Yahweh (God) in human form, the holy temple is his, so he can trash it if he wants to.

 

I don't know how apologists can get around the others though. Since he is supposed to be unchanging, they can't just say, "He changed his mind about the consumption of certain foods". As for lying, they'll just pretend that Jesus' lies weren't even there.

[Ellinas]

 

The Christian claim is not that the physical suffering was greater than any other's, but that what was suffered was the eternal punishment of god's eternal justice.  When I used to preach, I used to rationalize this by saying that, as he was the eternal son, so he could suffer all of that eternity even in the space of a mere three hours.  To be honest, it never really convinced me, but I couldn't think of any other way of justifying this nonsense.

 

The reason Christianity hides its' vaunted tenderness and love so effectively is because it denies any worth to humanity.  If we are worthless, our pains and sufferings are irrelevant.  And, of course, the Christian can always (if not actually admitting this) take comfort in the "I'm O,K, so stuff everyone else" mentality.  (I was going to right "'I'm alright, Jack' mentality" but I'm unsure whether that idiom would mean anything outside of the U.K.)

 

If we look at this logically - Considering we are dealing with the eternal realm,  Lets remove the word eternal as in and of itself means its stateless and never ending or beginning.

 

Basically Jesus suffered Gods Just Punishment that he would put upon all man kind.

 

Oddly enough Jesus suffered for 2 days tops and then rose again so either this means that God did not accept this as punishment or that it only takes 2 days for any one human to atone for the sins of all other past / present and future?

 

 

What's logic got to do with it?  This is based in doctrine...

 

To be honest, I doubt if it matters how we look at this - it will collapse into contradictions.  If we assert the relevance of eternity, we have to explain how unchanging divine wrath can ever be assuaged (and therefore changed) in relation to any given individual.  If we remove the concept of eternity, the whole basis of divine wrath and justice is destroyed and we end up with the ridiculous alternatives you suggest.