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What's So Wrong With Luke Warm?


xtify
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When I was a christian, this verse used to haunt me:  

 

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!" (Revelation 3:15 NIV)

 

The very reading of it got my anxious heart pounding.  I hated the thought of jesus, my saviour, rejecting me because i wasn't hardcore enough.  I wanted to loyally follow him to the death. I wanted to be ok with dying for him as he had done for me.  At times when I was manically devoted, i looked down on the less devoted christians and blamed them for the state of this idolatrous world. Those damn Anglicans!!!

 

Now that I am no longer a christian, this verse reeks of stupidity.  I can't believe how foolish i was to consider that a creator god would have this as a system.  It makes no sense whatsoever!  

 

Yesterday, I was reading Ironhorse's latest cut and paste apologetics about how god worked slowly to change human morality incrementally.  He allowed our cultures to grow progressively more moral by hearing and preaching the good news message of the cross.  It occured to me, if that were the case, why does he hate luke warm people?   Are they not a notch or two better than the evil, cold people he loves to hate?  Why would he rather people be hot or cold if we are to slowly progress towards a more acceptable morality?

 

Looking back, I can see the effect that this verse had on my mind.  It stopped the doubts from taking hold and silenced the cognitive dissonance.  It caused me to become more radicalized.  

 

But when you are outside of the paradigm, it makes NO SENSE!  Unless god is just too lazy to bother having to judge the luke warm people, wouldn't he prefer a slightly less evil person with vague beliefs in a creator over a purely evil person?  But the bible warns that he hates these people far more, and spews them out in disgust.  

 

I don't believe the bible, or in Yahweh, but  if he did exist and the bible were true, it would mean that he would rather me be an atheist!

 

Why? 

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It's a great way to scare the moderates.  If you are a cult leader you don't get much money or power from having half-interested followers.  So convince them that God hates that.  Convince them that God will punish that.  Convince them that being indifferent is worse than anything else.  Some will leave but your cult will become more fanatic.  Being the leader of fanatics gives you power.

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That verse more than anything else caused me to be as hardcore and radical as I possibly could.  Oh the embarrassment I could have saved myself!

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This is one of the favorites in adventism.  SDAs believe they're the one true church who really follows the biblical teachings.  You're a badventist if you're lukewarm, so you better follow, obey, and tithe. 

 

But I thought the same way you did, X, when you said: "I wanted to loyally follow him to the death. I wanted to be ok with dying for him as he had done for me. "

 

Yeah, fanatical faith that has me perfectly OK with being a martyr for jesus.

 

But those verses about killing kids just knocked me for a loop.  Would I kill for jesus?  Kill children?  "Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth." 

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A badventist!  hahahha.  

 

I agree with everyone here.  That verse drives people back into the fold.

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"Anyone can die for jesus.  But it takes a Real ManTM to live for him".  Stupid Youth Pastor, what did you know?

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My parents expected us kids to be just as on fire for Jesus as they were.  I once added up the hours per week spent in church or church related activities - 15.  That's a lot for a child/early teenager.

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Appears more about commitment to me. Luke warm anything is frustrating.

 

Yet another version of "keep believing in things despite all the evidence to the contrary." 

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Appears more about commitment to me. Luke warm anything is frustrating.

 

 

Says the Luke warm ex-C member!   :)

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The xian meme has survived because it has all these built in prods and fail safes.

 

initially you are told it's free, just confess and believe. After the euphoria dies, you learn that your thoughts are wicked and that consecration is necessary. Then you learn that you have to carry around a big ol cross and that this life is supposed to Suck. To make matters worse, our are now condemned for not being on fire. From time to time you can get hopped up on Jesus juice, but it gets harder and harder over time and you wallow in guilt for your lack of commitment, for those dirty, evil thoughts and you spend time praying for strength to get through the crisis that is your latest cross.

 

But don't worry, Jesus promised peace and Jesus always delivers. So you put on your fake smile and you push on through.

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Guest afireinside

Or Jesus just doesn't like warm jizz, need consult an apologist for context.

If he spits out the lukewarm believers he obviously swallows the hot ones.

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Guest afireinside

Seriously though this verse haunted me for years and got me so down and so condemned. Between this verse and the other nasty chestnut where Jesus says he never KNEW us and we were told to "depart" from him-this after serving him and trusting him for salvation but not completely knowing him-WTF?!? It's not a mindfuck it's a goddamn mindassrape!

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The xian meme has survived because it has all these built in prods and fail safes.

 

initially you are told it's free, just confess and believe. After the euphoria dies, you learn that your thoughts are wicked and that consecration is necessary. Then you learn that you have to carry around a big ol cross and that this life is supposed to Suck. To make matters worse, our are now condemned for not being on fire. From time to time you can get hopped up on Jesus juice, but it gets harder and harder over time and you wallow in guilt for your lack of commitment, for those dirty, evil thoughts and you spend time praying for strength to get through the crisis that is your latest cross.

 

But don't worry, Jesus promised peace and Jesus always delivers. So you put on your fake smile and you push on through.

 

Vigile, that pretty much summarizes the christian 'walk'.  Such a bait and switch!

 

I remember many times at the pente church I was forced to attend growing up, where almost everyone's smile was fake.  The appearance of the whole charade - the dead smiles pasted on adult faces - was frightening to us kids.  Most of us knew there was something fake about it, but we didn't know why.  

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Seriously though this verse haunted me for years and got me so down and so condemned. Between this verse and the other nasty chestnut where Jesus says he never KNEW us and we were told to "depart" from him-this after serving him and trusting him for salvation but not completely knowing him-WTF?!? It's not a mindfuck it's a goddamn mindassrape!

 

Me too!  Both those verses used to make my stomach churn.  It was almost a relief when I decided as a teen not to try and follow Jesus even though I hadn't stopped fully believing.  Atleast then I knew I would be rejected instead of having to wonder.  The wondering made me incredibly anxious.

 

When I was an adult believer, I never really got back into the church fully.  I tried out a few baptist churches for a while, but attending used to give me anxiety (stange I didn't recognise the connection).  My neighbour, an elderly woman, was dying of cancer.  We were friends but I had never forced jesus on her.  

 

For months while she was dying, a guilty inner voice that I thought was the holy spirit, was constantly prodding me to go over and have the "have you accepted jesus as your personal savior?" talk.  I kept putting it off and it never happened.  When she died, I was wrecked with guilt.  I imagined she was in hell and it was all my fault.  The fear of being rejected by jesus for being ashamed of him and the message was overwhelming.  I felt like the worst, lukewarm christian ever and fell into a depression until that spring.

 

Now I realise that I was just following my own gut by not going over and burdening her mind with a bunch of supernatural bullshit.  I'm glad that I didn't let my indoctrination take charge of me.  It would have embarrassed both of us and made her short time left much worse.    

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Ha xtify...this is the verse that gave me the final push to finally leave it all behind. Because of my conception of what a "burning" heart for God would be I finally realized that as hard as I tried all my life, it would never get hotter than lukewarm...and since Jesus did not like lukewarm I decided to rather be cold because that's what it says. You should rather be cold than lukewarm. When I left church behind I was still holding on to Jesus and my believe in him and thought I just had to readjust my faith. So to me this verse meant that I should be real instead of trying to get hot for Jesus on my own strength. Because trying to be hot would only lead to be lukewarm. To be fake. And that's what I decided, to be real whatever the consequences would be. And off I was on a journey away from fakeness, away from superstition, away from weird expectations, away from a believe system that made my life so empty and dull. I am glad I took that verse serious...yellow.gif it changed my life for good.

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So IH's definition is keeping the 'law' (which christians interpret 40k+ different ways, and they all think they have the 'right' law). 

 

And End3's definition is just commit yourself despite any other evidence to the contrary.  Don't think, just kill children if ordered.

 

Is this the work of the omniscient omnipotent deity (btw what makes you think there's only 2 choices, 0 or 1?  Why not 2+?)

Or is this the ramblings of 2 men who desperately want to believe in their santa?

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Several contradictions in there, Ironhorse.  

What are your thoughts on this subject?  Or, are you capable of having your own thoughts anymore?

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I used to be lukewarm for Jesus. But then my faith evaporated. It's not even wet. :-)

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Several contradictions in there, Ironhorse.  

What are your thoughts on this subject?  Or, are you capable of having your own thoughts anymore?

 

 

He's a Christian. Original personal thoughts are forbidden.

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Several contradictions in there, Ironhorse.  

What are your thoughts on this subject?  Or, are you capable of having your own thoughts anymore?

 

 

 

I'm interested in what contradictions you see in the link I posted.

 

My thoughts? I have been saved by grace, not works.

I try to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do,

not to earn points with God.  

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I try to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do,

not to earn points with God.  

 

hey, I love that, Ironhorse:  trying to do the right thing because (my added emphasis) it is the right thing to do.  I think most of us will agree on that as a goal.

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