Journey Into The Abyss

[knowmad]

Had this frightening experience and I really need to express it and hopefully someone may have some insight or info of what it means or how to face it with more understanding because I do not want to experience this type of thing again with the level of ignorance and inability I have at the moment.

 

I've been on holidays for over a month and life is pretty relaxed. I've even severely cut down on my usual deep explorative thinking that I do. My mental state has been one of extreme relaxation, enjoying nature and the slow meandering pace of life.

The only things this week that have been slightly negative are my teen son has stayed with me and I've been exploring how reality perceives me instead of how I perceive reality.

 

I mention these two things because it troubled me a little to think about what reality perceives me to be, and my boy who is usually quiet and non expressive has been overly uncommunicative and unexpressive to the point where he seems catatonic.

 

These two things have slightly frustrated me but not enough that it would cause me to experience what I had yesterday and last night.

I mention them only because they did have a negative influence on me.

Then there was this thing. It was a few days ago as I was joyfully and enthusiastically working on a page for my web site.

The words were flowing effortlessly and I was on a creative high. The next time I hopped on the puta to add to the work, my mind was a complete blank and I could sense this wall stopping me.

 

I was disheartened that my creativity was gone. As I tried to establish what had happened to it I had a symbolic vision that it was like some creature had appeared up out of nowhere, grabbed everything creative about me and had disappeared down again just as quickly as it had appeared.

I was shocked at the speed of this loss of creativity and the symbolism that seemed to portray what had transpired.

 

After a while I had accepted it as typical creative block and my son and I continued to go swimming and shopping etc and we enjoyed ourselves and each other's company.

One afternoon while at the mall, I began to be overwhelmed with severe frustration with the people there so we left abruptly and went to the video shop and hired 2 movies that we both have been looking forward to watching for some time.

 

By the time we arrived home, I was so overwhelmed with anger and frustration I made a coffee and without a word went straight to my room and didn't come out till 12 the next day.

My son quietly packed his things and asked me to take him back to his mother's. I wanted to explain my horrible behaviour but I just couldn't, I was so bound up and it hurt me so much to see my boy being hurt by my behaviour.

 

But he did an amazing thing that afternoon, he came over and watched a movie with me. I knew then that he hadn't taken my behaviour personally , he just didn't want to be around in that horrible atmosphere.

We didn't talk much and he went back home. The next day I apologised to him and explained what I was going through to reassure him he had done nothing wrong and that I loved him.

 

Then that night the shit hit the fan. I was sitting in the dark just thinking about all the strange things that had transpired these last few days as I haven't experienced anything like this for a year,

and then I began to go off into a vision sort of thing.

 

Try to visualise a mixture of what it would be like to be gandalf fighting the balrock as they plummeted down that chasm and being ensnared by a giant squid as it drags you down to the very depths of the ocean.

 

This is the thought journey I had that lasted about 12 hours, while I was asleep and awake. About a third of this time I was awake and it started while I was awake and alert.

Let me assure you there were no heroics on my part in all this as it was a frightening experience.

I was battling in my mind just to stay in control, I was ensnared in this downward swirling thought journey into some abyss and I couldn't break free. And it wasn't a battle of winning or losing against some foe, it was more of a battle to find understanding or remain coherent.

 

During all this time, the visual representation of it remained constant and clear. The thoughts were furious and swirling as were the jagged, shiny black and purple sides of the chasm I was falling down. I had nothing to grasp onto and all I could remember from the whole experience was that I mustn't try to escape from the experience. Don't let fear take me over.

 

Even though this mind trip was scary, I kept telling myself that I will come through this intact only if I stay focused on thinking with a clear rational mind and not be overwhelmed by the onslaught of thoughts and not to let my fear make me give up.

 

I awoke many times through the night and the journey didn't abate or change.

It started to subside by around 10 am this morning. I got out of bed thoroughly exhausted, shaken and defiantely wobbly on my feet and mentally dazed and dizzy.

 

It's now 5 pm and I am calm enough to write about it.

Holy fuck, I hope someone has some insight into this shit.

I've spent nearly all day calmly going over it trying to establish any connections as to what set it off.

As I mentioned before, the three things that were different these last couple of days are the only clues I have but I, as of yet, can't see any relation between them and what I experienced.

 

Fuck I don't even know if I'm still in the abyss or if I actually was in one.

Ah, there is one thing that seems to me that it may be related.

How do I know that what I perceive to be real is actually real if it's only my perceptual interpretation of whatever reality is ?

Could this whole abyss trip be excessively expressed uncertainty ?

I dunno , I'm not consciously fearful of uncertainty, I actually enjoy exploring it.

I hope I will be able to remember at least some of the thoughts that took place in this abyss journey.

 

The good thing is I have experienced it so if it happens again I will be more equipped.

You're insights and observations will be much appreciated.

[godlessgrrl]

Good thing you were able to communicate at least some of this to your boy. Teen/parent stuff can be tricky. Talking is important.

 

These are my thoughts just sort of on the outside looking in, with some personal POV based on what I see and feel during strange times like you mention.

 

It's interesting that you mention the ocean and the abyss, because in dreamwork both are often symbols of the unconscious. To dream that one is falling or being dragged into water or into a chasm is often a sign that there's some deep issue pulling you into yourself, that you'll need to confront somehow. (I understand this is happening every time I dream of ships sinking. I had one of those dreams just a few days ago.)

 

Falling into the abyss isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. It's in some ways a mental death and rebirth metaphor. It sounds like there's a sense of feeling lost going on, is that correct? If so, loss isn't always bad either. Having no direction both means you're lost, but it also means you can go anywhere you want to. Plus if you have no map, you can't really get lost, either.

 

I'm also hearing a metaphor about some beast from below reaching up and taking away a creative mental process. Could just be writer's block. I get that a lot too, with making art. I work in bursts of creativity anyway, I don't just go full-bore all the time. Sometimes stuff just magically flows out and sometimes it doesn't, so if you work like this, maybe it's just part of a normal ebb and flow. And perhaps the beast you've envisioned is your frustration at losing that, even temporarily.

 

On the other hand, if there's a deep "issue" coming up, that beast could certainly represent the issue coming up and sort of taking over something else, demanding attention, demanding power.

 

The thing that I find amazing is that our minds can work on this stuff when we're not even conscious of it. I mean it seems like a mystery to you why this happened at the moment, but maybe 6 months down the line you'll have processed it a bit, and be able to make some connections. "Oh yeah, X happened, and it triggered Y, and I had a paradigm shift in Z way." Or whatever it is.

 

Maybe do some journaling about the experience, just to explore it. Don't worry about gaining insight Right Now about it; sometimes stuff needs to just simmer under the surface for awhile. If I'm totally off or something, too, by all means don't take my comments to heart - take what feels right, if anything, and leave the rest. In the end, I think the most important piece is what all of what you've experienced means to you.

 

Good luck.

[Fweethawt]

I'd go back an try to make a list of everything that I ate,

and where I ate it at within a 24 hour period before this started.

 

Then - I'd have somebody come in and check my place for gas leaks.

[waynus]

Fweethawt is right, it sounds like a "drug" induced response. Assuming you have not done any drugs as such it may be related to something you were exposed to in that timeframe. A blood test might not be a bad idea.

 

It does not sound like a mental illness at all.

[pandora]

Did you take any Valerian Root or chamomile? Melatonin? Anything over the counter for sleep/relaxation?

 

Sometimes when I take these I have very very vivid dreams. It sounds a little drug induced, either that or you are just a very creative person and your subconscious is working through some things.

[Ro-bear]

Sounds like a trip. Could someone have slipped you a mickey? Seriously, this sounds like the work of LSD.

[pandora]

Sounds like a trip. Could someone have slipped you a mickey? Seriously, this sounds like the work of LSD.

 

 

I didn't want to scare him, but yeah, it sounds VERY trippy. Seriously.... who made your food that night? If you are sure you didn't take anything, then I don't know what to think either. Maybe you were just in some altered state of consciousness. You said you meditate a lot. Perhaps you have learned to induce this in yourself, and you reached a point that you have not before. Maybe you just had a night of really vivid dreams combined with writer's block. Who knows. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[ped]

perhaps its simply a rapid moving seasonal effective disorder. I must admit i have been moderatly depressed these days, i seem to get overwhelmed by average stress.

have you experienced a bad trip before, cause they way you describe your inner thoughts seems to suggest you have. an exercise i try to keep in mind is to simply let your thoughts pass over, let them go..forget about it. it works for me.....

 

"over thinking, over analyzing seperates the body from the mind"

[Ouroboros]

Bi-polar disorder? It almost sounded like you flipped from a mania state to a depression state.

[white_raven23]

Sounds like you are experiencing some serious hormonal imbalances. Sudden bursts of creativity, followed by a sudden absence of creativity......and the mind trip you went on.....

 

Fwee is right. Check what you ate, check for gas leaks, and last but not least......if it doesn't stop, get a brain scan or something! I don't want to scare you, but this could be the symptoms of some serious shit, and you don't want to wait too long!

[Joyous1]

See a doctor, it could be something as simple as a vitamin deficiency or dehydration.

 

If your son has been "catatonic" lately I think the LSD thing is worth considering too. Take him to the doctor as well.

[Open_Minded]

I've been on holidays for over a month and life is pretty relaxed. I've even severely cut down on my usual deep explorative thinking that I do. My mental state has been one of extreme relaxation, enjoying nature and the slow meandering pace of life.

The only things this week that have been slightly negative are my teen son has stayed with me and I've been exploring how reality perceives me instead of how I perceive reality.

 

Knowmad - by all means you may want to see a doctor, because there may be other issues at play. But what you said above leads me to give you information about another possibility.

 

Do you meditate a lot? Your statements above lead me to believe that you do.

 

If so... you should find a spiritual director, or master in some form of meditation.

 

I am Christian (I've used meditation consistently for 30 years). The only language I know to guide you is the Christian language.... so you should try very hard to find someone who is well versed in the type of meditation you practice - if you do.

 

Anyway - in Christian language - you may be experiencing an "unloading of the unconsciousness". This dynamic can range from very subtle and harmless negative emotions during meditation all the way to very intense negative experiences that you describe. The reason I ask whether you meditate or not, is that these experiences can be the result of regular, disciplined meditation. The physical act of centering ones mind every day, does have a physical impact on the brain. At some point it is natural for the unconscious emotions we've buried for years to surface.

 

Over the long haul it is a good thing because your unconsciousness is getting rid of a lot of "garbage" and it will clear you out a bit. But, while you are experiencing it - it can be very distressing. You may feel as though you are loosing touch with reality. And that is why it is very important to find a master/spiritual director in your particular path of meditation. These experiences can be brought on in other ways as well, I am familiar with the contemplative path and so that is why I write from this perspective.

 

What is important for you to understand here - and why you need to find someone familiar with your path of meditation - is that if you are truly having one of these experiences medication can suppress &/or prolong it.

[Fweethawt]

If so... you should find a spiritual director, or master in some form of meditation.

 

I am Christian (I've used meditation consistently for 30 years). The only language I know to guide you is the Christian language.... so you should try very hard to find someone who is well versed in the type of meditation you practice - if you do.

 

Anyway - in Christian language - you may be experiencing an "unloading of the unconsciousness". This dynamic can range from very subtle and harmless negative emotions during meditation all the way to very intense negative experiences that you describe. The reason I ask whether you meditate or not, is that these experiences can be the result of regular, disciplined meditation. The physical act of centering ones mind every day, does have a physical impact on the brain. At some point it is natural for the unconscious emotions we've buried for years to surface.

 

Over the long haul it is a good thing because your unconsciousness is getting rid of a lot of "garbage" and it will clear you out a bit. But, while you are experiencing it - it can be very distressing. You may feel as though you are loosing touch with reality. And that is why it is very important to find a master/spiritual director in your particular path of meditation. These experiences can be brought on in other ways as well, I am familiar with the contemplative path and so that is why I write from this perspective.

 

What is important for you to understand here - and why you need to find someone familiar with your path of meditation - is that if you are truly having one of these experiences medication can suppress &/or prolong it.

Your reply belongs in the humor section.

 

Nice try!

 

That wasn't "Christian Language™"!

That was a bunch of New Age bull-hockey mixed with a bit of science!

 

Oh God! You're killin' me!

 

If you would have written your reply in "Christian Language™", your reply would have been much shorter.

 

Christian Language Response™ - Satan wants you! Those weren't visions you were having! What you described is what was actually happening to your very soul at that time! Repent of your sin, and seek Jesus!

 

 

There! Much better.

[Open_Minded]

Christian Language Response™ - Satan wants you! Those weren't visions you were having! What you described is what was actually happening to your very soul at that time! Repent of your sin, and seek Jesus!

 

No that would be literalist christian language. The experiences I am talking about are cross cultural and span written history of contemplative practice.

 

You don't have to believe it, there was a time in my life where I would have laughed just as you do.... now.

 

But... keep in mind when a person practices regular and disciplined meditation, the brain will be impacted. One does not sit down and meditate two times a day - for at least 20 minutes each period - without a physical change in the brain. Scientists are studying the changes which take place in the brain as a result of regular meditation.

 

Feel free to do a google search under: "effects of meditation on the brain". You will find that scientists are studying this topic with the help of monks - including the Dalai Lama.

[knowmad]

tnx for the posts ppl have copied them and am working on them offline will respond tonight or tomorrow.

have to have a think about them.

[Fweethawt]

The experiences I am talking about are cross cultural and span written history of contemplative practice.

Regardless, your response includes knowledge based upon observations outside of Christian teachings, not from within. That's why your reply was not a Christian response. <--- period

You don't have to believe it, there was a time in my life where I would have laughed just as you do.... now.

You would still be laughing if you would actually make an honest attempt at lining up your response with actual Christian teachings. It can't be done. You are using "Knowledge of this world" (what you've learned from other religions/experiences) and attempting to claim it as something of Christian origin when indeed, it is not. <--- 'nuther period

But... keep in mind when a person practices regular and disciplined meditation, the brain will be impacted. One does not sit down and meditate two times a day - for at least 20 minutes each period - without a physical change in the brain. Scientists are studying the changes which take place in the brain as a result of regular meditation.

This is old news. Been there - done that - got the t-shirt... This says nothing about coming before The Lord™ in fear and trembling. These facts - these scientific facts, have nothing to do with Christianity. Hence my point.

Feel free to do a google search under: "effects of meditation on the brain". You will find that scientists are studying this topic with the help of monks - including the Dalai Lama.

I know. It has a calming effect due to the fact that meditation can cause certain types of natural chemicals to be produced and released into the body. No amount of meditation is going to turn water into wine, produce water from a rock, make a dragon swipe the stars from the sky with his tail, feed the masses with a few loaves of bread and fish, etc...

 

Like I said, you're response has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. What you've done here is The Age-old Christian Practice™ of taking information found elsewhere by other people and claiming it for yourself and your paper God.

 

Yes, I'm still laughing.

[Astreja]

Knowmad, first assess every obvious physical factor... Hallucinogenic agents, recent injury to the head, everything you can think of.

 

Beyond that point, it seems to fall into the nether world between spirituality and psychiatry. It does have some elements that suggest a "dark night of the soul" crisis, particularly the "Abyss" imagery.

 

My definition of this "dark night": Essentially a grief-like transition stage that occurs during a major reworking of one's worldview. In order to grasp a new set of memes, one must let go of the old set. The resulting mental free-fall can last for hours, days, months... It's frightening because of its suddenness and intensity, difficult to deal with on rational terms (although reason is absolutely essential if one wants to remain functional in this state), and painful because one is temporarily without an acceptable frame of reference for one's emotions.

 

I'm just getting out of a mini-DNoTS crisis as I write this. Like your experience, mine coincided with several weeks of reduced activity. (I quit my previous job on December 30 and have been relaxing at home and keeping very irregular hours.)

[white_raven23]

Like your experience, mine coincided with several weeks of reduced activity. (I quit my previous job on December 30 and have been relaxing at home and keeping very irregular hours.)

 

 

Holy Crap!!

 

Astreja you just reminded me of my last period of unemployment!

 

Knowmad!!! Don't forget to eat!

 

I know that sounds nuts, but for three weeks (I.....think....it was at least that) out of two months unemployment, I forgot to eat food! I was quite literally living on Coca-Cola, and water. I know it was at least 3 weeks, because after a while, I started to feel very strange. The energy it took just to get the paper in the morning completely wiped me out!

 

I actually had to realize...."When was the last time I ate?" And I completely freaked out. I got in my car, drove to Subway (sat in the car for ten minutes resting) got a little deli size (round 4 inch) turkey sandwich, and proceeded to take my slow....sweet time eating it (over an hour). I have never felt so awful! Making your stomach take food after it's shrunk is exhausting and nauseating. I'm guessing I wasn't looking too hot either, the looks I was getting from the employees were a bit odd, but I didn't have the energy to go home and eat! I kept having to take little breaks too, chewing was soooo tiring!

 

I can't even fully remember what I was up to during those weeks up until I'd realized I hadn't eaten!

 

Stay in contact with people! Keep track of time, even though it seems meaningless!

 

I didn't drink Coke for over three years after that....it felt like "the enemy".

[Open_Minded]

Regardless, your response includes knowledge based upon observations outside of Christian teachings, not from within. That's why your reply was not a Christian response.....

 

You would still be laughing if you would actually make an honest attempt at lining up your response with actual Christian teachings. It can't be done. You are using "Knowledge of this world" (what you've learned from other religions/experiences) and attempting to claim it as something of Christian origin when indeed, it is not....

 

Quote from Father Thomas Keating - leader of the Centering Prayer movement in contemporary contemplative Christianity....

 

Empirical evidence seems to be growing that the consequences of traumatic emotional experiences from earliest childhood are stored in our bodies and nervous systems in the form of tension, anxiety, and various defense mechanisms. Ordinary rest and sleep do not get rid of them. But in interior silence and the profound rest that this brings to the whole organism, these emotional blocks begin to soften up and the natural capacity of the human organism to throw off things that are harmful starts to evacuate them. The psyche as well as the body has its way of evacuating material that is harmful to its health. The emotional junk in our unconscious emerges during prayer in the form of thoughts that have a certain urgency, energy, and emotional charge to them. You don't usually know from what particular source or sources they are coming. There is ordinarily just a jumble of thoughts and a vague or acute sense of uneasiness. …

 

Contemplative prayer has a way of completing everything unfinished in your life by allowing the emotions to have an outlet in the form of moods or thoughts that seem but a jumble. This is the dynamic of unloading (purification). The intensity of feelings of fear, anxiety, or anger may have no relationship to your recent experience.

 

Does Father Keating use more contemporary language... you bet he does. It is wonderful too, we are not left with 13th century language of "dark night" imagery that Astreja referred to below.

 

Beyond that point, it seems to fall into the nether world between spirituality and psychiatry. It does have some elements that suggest a "dark night of the soul" crisis, particularly the "Abyss" imagery.

 

My definition of this "dark night": Essentially a grief-like transition stage that occurs during a major reworking of one's worldview. In order to grasp a new set of memes, one must let go of the old set. The resulting mental free-fall can last for hours, days, months... It's frightening because of its suddenness and intensity, difficult to deal with on rational terms (although reason is absolutely essential if one wants to remain functional in this state), and painful because one is temporarily without an acceptable frame of reference for one's emotions.

 

Astreja... please don't misunderstand me, I've read John of the Cross and his works. And they have been very helpful in my own journey. But many people can not get beyond the language and culture of John of the Cross... that is why I prefer to use the contemporary language of Father Keating and the Centering Prayer movement.

 

BUT Fweethawt, Father Keating has tried to take known experiences in the Christian contemplative movement (like the Dark nights of senses and soul) and interpret those experiences in light of modern psychology. I am a user of Centering Prayer - I know its language and that is why I said the only language I know is "Christian". As I've said many other times on this board - I am NOT a literalist Christian. So please do not go there... I won't follow or engage in a debate over it.

 

Within the context of this thread I'm trying to present possibilities I know about in such a way as to be more inclusive - rather than exclusive.

 

In that regard you may want to check out the following link:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050706/health.htm#1

 

Search for the following article - Meditation is not free from side-effects

 

Following is a quote:

 

These effects can prove helpful in a number of psychological and physical problems. But thinking that meditation can cure everything would be a wrong impression. Now, let us look at the negative effects of meditation (which have been found in different scientific studies) :

 

Boredom, impaired reality testing

Less motivation in life

Relaxation-induced mild-to severe anxiety

Paradoxical increases in mental tension

Confusion and disorientation.

Feeling of “spaced out”.

Depression, increased negativity, being more judgmental.

Feeling addicted to meditation.

Psychosis-like symptoms,

Appearance of hidden memories from the past, such as incest, rejection and abandonment.

Other adverse effects are uncomfortable bodily sensations, feelings of guilt , grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings.

 

Some people might say “adverse effects are only a part of the path. It takes years of practice”. How much this statement is true needed to be debated. Even highly experienced meditators or experienced teachers have reported such side-effects.

 

For my own part - I have come to believe these experiences are an expected and normal part of the path. Just as pain in exercising any other muscle of the body is considered part of the process (no pain, no gain). The important thing is to find a means of support and grounding during these experiences.

 

Back to the original topic.... Knowmad... if you've practiced meditation in a disciplined way you really need to take this as a serious possibility. Psychologists are increasingly studying these areas, also - it's important for you to find someone within your own path of meditation that can help you interpret the experience. One thing needs to be emphasised here - if you are going through such an experience then depending on the circumstances medication can either be of some help in the "grounding" process or (adversely) it can suppress. This is why it is important to explore your situation with someone who is knowledgeable about meditation and all of its dimensions.

[Astreja]

Astreja... please don't misunderstand me, I've read John of the Cross and his works. And they have been very helpful in my own journey. But many people can not get beyond the language and culture of John of the Cross... that is why I prefer to use the contemporary language of Father Keating and the Centering Prayer movement.

Understood. But in choosing my analogy I was thinking more of the personal phenomenon rather than a literal reference to the opus by John of the Cross.

 

I googled Father Keating... The technique for the Centering Prayer is quite interesting in its simplicity.

[Fweethawt]

Search for the following article - Meditation is not free from side-effects

 

As I mentioned above, I already know this.

I wasn't contesting the fact that meditation is good.

 

What I was contesting is how you seem to think that meditation and these side-effects are somehow linked to Christianity. There is nothing in the Bible that explains this. There is, however, basic instructions in the Bible on how to pray. From what Christianity teaches about prayer, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with meditation.

 

Biblically speaking, did the character of Jesus teach how to pray, or how to meditate? Once you answer that, then maybe you'll see the point I am trying to make.

[Open_Minded]

Understood. But in choosing my analogy I was thinking more of the personal phenomenon rather than a literal reference to the opus by John of the Cross.

 

Yes... "Dark Nights" are very intense. To be honest I saw the language and was wonderfully surprised that an ex-christian would embrace the analogy

 

I googled Father Keating... The technique for the Centering Prayer is quite interesting in its simplicity.

 

Yes... the Centering Prayer movement is starting to make headway into mainstream churches. In time I think it will play a real role in moving Christianity towards a more universal understanding of Christ....

 

Father Keating is also very involved in interfaith dialog and learning meditative techniques of other world religions.

[Open_Minded]

Knowmad... you've been in my thoughts pretty consistently and I'm wondering if things have settled down any? And am hoping you're feeling better.

_______________________________

 

Fweethawt.... this thread is Knowmad's thread. Specifically it is centered around...

 

Had this frightening experience and I really need to express it and hopefully someone may have some insight or info of what it means or how to face it with more understanding because I do not want to experience this type of thing again with the level of ignorance and inability I have at the moment.

 

In your original (charging post - I might add) you challenged me in such a way as to suggest my response about meditation was not legitimate. That it was ....

 

a bunch of New Age bull-hockey mixed with a bit of science!

 

Because Knowmad is in such a distressing place right now.... you had every right to challenge the legitimacy of my suggestion. He needs real options to consider right now. So.... I approached your concerns from that perspective.

 

And now it comes down to this.... ????

 

What I was contesting is how you seem to think that meditation and these side-effects are somehow linked to Christianity. There is nothing in the Bible that explains this. There is, however, basic instructions in the Bible on how to pray. From what Christianity teaches about prayer, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with meditation.

 

Biblically speaking, did the character of Jesus teach how to pray, or how to meditate? Once you answer that, then maybe you'll see the point I am trying to make.

 

In a thread requesting help because of a very intense psychological/physical experience?????? You're kidding me right??????

 

Knowmad doesn't need this right now.. I'm assuming he started the thread for two things.

 

1. He needs concrete information about his immediate problem

2. He needs support

 

And you want to have a debate about what is "Christian" and what is not "Christian"?????

 

OK... short answer ...

 

Christianity is NOT limited to black and white words - read literally & out of context. It is not limited only to the books within the commonly accepted canonized scripture. Christianity is a 2000 year old religion built upon an even older foundation of ancient Judaism. Contemporary Christianity is NOT limited to the literal masses; there are many dimensions, layers and nuances.

 

Specifically in regards to the way Jesus taught people to pray you may want to check out the following link: http://www.metamind.net/klotz3.html

 

This takes you to a site explaining Original Prayer: Embodied Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus

 

Reading the words of Jesus without studying context and culture - is literal in the extreme. It is not the form of Christianity I participate in. And it should be no surprise to you, that there are - and have been for hundreds of years - forms of Christianity that are NOT literal.

 

The fact that you feel you must debate this point in the context of this thread - says much, Fweethawt. It says much about your own extreme emotions towards Christianity. But this is neither the time nor the place to explore those emotions.

 

If you want to have a discussion about these issues - feel free to start another thread. If it is a discussion - and not a debate - I'll join you. But know this; I've reached a point in my life where I no longer feel the need to prove other people wrong. It is not about right or wrong, nor is it about being a "true" Christian, or not. It is about a search that every human being is on. We can either learn from each other's perspectives, or we can fight about. I'm past fighting about.....

[Fweethawt]

Knowmad doesn't need this right now.. I'm assuming he started the thread for two things.

 

1. He needs concrete information about his immediate problem

2. He needs support

 

And you want to have a debate about what is "Christian" and what is not "Christian"?????

 

Good for you, you opened the way for me to make my next point. It's funny how I knew that the conversation would lead this way.

 

Yes, Knowmad did indeed come here looking for support.

He came to ExChristian.net looking for support.

He did not go to Seekinganswersinchristianlanguage.bs.

 

You, came to the wrong place to give advice. If you wish to (ever so gently) attempt to try and make an ExChristian (or whatever Knowmad is) believe that the solutions to his problems are going to be found in Christianity or some other form of help that Christianity is so "obviously" responsible for, then keep it in the Lion's Den or build your own site.

 

It's that simple.

 

If you want to prosyletize, the Lion's Den is the only place it is permitted.

Keep the Christian crap out of the rest of the forum.

 

==================================

btw - Yes, I did ignore (probably) about 95% of what you said.

I figured it was the least I could do in order to keep the conversation

at an equal level. You weren't listening to me, I wasn't going to listen

to you. Maturity comes in such tiny packages.

[Open_Minded]

You, came to the wrong place to give advice. If you wish to (ever so gently) attempt to try and make an ExChristian (or whatever Knowmad is) believe that the solutions to his problems are going to be found in Christianity or some other form of help that Christianity is so "obviously" responsible for, then keep it in the Lion's Den or build your own site.

 

Well now then... this little discussion should be over. As I've said before... I'm past fighting about this kind of stuff. We agree this little side discussion is over and will let the thread focus on Knowmad's concerns.

 

I will continue to offer advice when I feel it is warranted, and you can continue to believe I am here to "prosyletize".