Forgiveness

[Guest taryn]

This is random, and I am sure a topic that may bring some ridicule with it. I ran across this site randomly, and like so many others that have done likewise I am sure-- had a sort of morbid curiosity, being myself a believer, and frankly- just human.

 

I was humbled wondering into the site, as I realized that I am probably one amongst a hundred Christians that have come in here-- and I have seen at least one example of attack directed at you from other Christians... almost amusing even is that they attack you for attacking our faith...

 

please understand that as a believer I cannot condone the statements made in the forums and throughout the site, but as a Christian and a sinner (realizing my own crap) I cannot condemn any of it either. Rather I wanted to extend to you love and compassion-- as I have been to that side of there is no God, this is all fake-- and I have had my doubts... so I do understand... and if you need a place to vent about your frustrations with the faith, again I understand... but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you-- not the churchy, screwed up, minister-rapist, corrupted by the world faith, love, and truth-- but that of a holy and righteous God...

 

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker... I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

I'm hoping that this short post will be a break in the battle and attack between believer and non that is demonstrated on the forums-- its not a war between us, but rather one on the heavenly realm... I am sorry that so many believers so often forget this... and that you must reap the effects of that ignorance.

[MQTA]

This is random, and I am sure a topic that may bring some ridicule with it. I ran across this site randomly, and like so many others that have done likewise I am sure-- had a sort of morbid curiosity, being myself a believer, and frankly- just human.

 

I was humbled wondering into the site, as I realized that I am probably one amongst a hundred Christians that have come in here-- and I have seen at least one example of attack directed at you from other Christians... almost amusing even is that they attack you for attacking our faith...

 

please understand that as a believer I cannot condone the statements made in the forums and throughout the site, but as a Christian and a sinner (realizing my own crap) I cannot condemn any of it either. Rather I wanted to extend to you love and compassion-- as I have been to that side of there is no God, this is all fake-- and I have had my doubts... so I do understand... and if you need a place to vent about your frustrations with the faith, again I understand... but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you-- not the churchy, screwed up, minister-rapist, corrupted by the world faith, love, and truth-- but that of a holy and righteous God...

 

 

Welcome to EX-Christian.net, most of the interest here is on the Other side of Christianity, AFTER it. The experience with Christianity is quite high. The determination wasn't "this is all fake", but actual research and realizing it is all fake. Not that it's just fake, but HOW it all came together.

 

It's a great story, as they say, the greatest STORY ever told.

 

There's Tradition

 

and then there's History

 

What Christians see as Facts of life, our history, the development of the story, EX-Christians see how it was all reverse engineered from the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew OT, combed and created.

 

Many ex-Christians believe in Creationism AND Evolution, in that The Bible was Created, and then Evolved, by the powers in charge through history. To the victors go the spoils.

 

If you take the Bible, which is 1% of all man's knowledge, and in your mind turn it into 100%, you never have to worry about anything else, you just miss 99% of the human experience.

 

If you research everything else, you see the place of the Bible and how it keeps people on the inside until they, themselves, break free of the chains.

 

 

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker... I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

Yeah... how ironic.. the ones who come to preach love seem to spew more venom than talking serpents.

 

 

I'm hoping that this short post will be a break in the battle and attack between believer and non that is demonstrated on the forums-- its not a war between us, but rather one on the heavenly realm... I am sorry that so many believers so often forget this... and that you must reap the effects of that ignorance.

 

People come here wearing their Armor of God. Most of us accept all, and all beliefs. We're not the ones saying "Turn or burn". BeLIEve this Or ELSE. And Never Question.

 

Have a nice day

[Fweethawt]

Rather I wanted to extend to you love and compassion-- as I have been to that side of there is no God, this is all fake-- and I have had my doubts... so I do understand... and if you need a place to vent about your frustrations with the faith, again I understand... but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you-- not the churchy, screwed up, minister-rapist, corrupted by the world faith, love, and truth-- but that of a holy and righteous God...

First post - bad start. These are quite condescending remarks to direct towards those who have freed themselves from the cult. Of course, I don't expect you to understand this. Perhaps in time, you may, but it's not likely.

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker... I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

Go take a look at the prayer thread over in the Lion's Den. Let's see how many excuses you can come up with for God's lacking.

I'm hoping that this short post will be a break in the battle and attack between believer and non that is demonstrated on the forums--

It won't. You're hardly the first who has tried. You won't be the last.

its not a war between us, but rather one on the heavenly realm...

We've heard this before too. If the "war" was in the "heavenly realm" instead of down here, then it wouldn't be here now, would it?

 

Don't bother answering that question.

I already know the answer.

It starts out with, "The Bible tells us...."

 

I am sorry that so many believers so often forget this... and that you must reap the effects of that ignorance.

If there is one thing that can be called "sin" that both believers and unbelievers can come to some sort of agreement on, it is indeed ignorance. At this site, you'll find that we tend to stray from ignorance as much as possible.

 

Enjoy your stay.

[knowmad]

Well taryn, there's no need to hope that your post will be a break in the war between some xians and nons.

Logic states that the time spent by any warrior reading your post will in fact cease fighting for that duration.

Hope or faith is not required, it's inevitable.

 

Sadly, what's also inevitable is the battle will resume as soon as the post has been read, but you did get that break you were hoping for.

 

I learnt early on in my xianity that if I am hurt by another xian, especially someone who is in spritual authority over me,

then I have already fallen way short of the whole deal Jesus was teaching by word and example.

 

I mean should I be offended if a blind person bumps into me ?

Should I be offended if an ignorant person criticises me?

Should I be offended if a self righteous person judges me?

Should I be offended if a lost person laughs at me for going the wrong way?

I stopped following people very early on in my xian walk and began to follow Jesus and it was that change that freed me from being offended by the unchristlike behaviour of 99.9%of all xians.

 

You ask for our forgiveness, fair enough. But what about when we ask for you to repent.

Repent and you won't have to ask for forgiveness.

The war will stop when xians truly and fully reflect the lifestyle and attitude of Jesus.

 

But with 33000+ variations of xianity I suspect the war will continue.

When I deconverted I debated for a few months, but upon seeing the vast difference in perception between the two warring parties I knew it was time to move on and let people believe whatever they want to believe.

 

Where I live there is no war, just different people believing different things. Xians aren't the enemy to me, most are just people trapped in their belief, trapped by fear and guilt, I really feel for them.

 

And of course there are the odd few xians who are totally free within their belief and that's all I want to say about this right now.

[godlessgrrl]

Ummm.... how many testimonies and posts did you read before posting?

 

I ask because it seems you may be suffering the same misconception that many Christians have, both here and elsewhere - which is that in general non-believers leave the church because the church "let us down" or "made us resent [it]". Or that it was some human failing, abuse, attack, or whatnot that drove us away.

 

You seem remorseful that many Christians do act like utter jerks, and I have no quarrel with you there. But I would advise against assuming that the jerkiness of Christians is the only reason why many of us left. It isn't even the primary reason, for a lot of us here. I'd say it's safe to say that most posters here left because something caused them to take a closer look at their faith, and they found the religion as a whole wanting somehow. It wasn't a case of resentment, or of being "let down". It was just looking at it and realizing Christianity simply doesn't make good sense.

 

This isn't to say that nobody here was ever treated like crap by a Christian. I know I have been, on a number of occasions. But something I've learned in the time since is that ultimately, those people just used their religion as a tool. It wasn't the religion itself that was an issue. In fact the religion was irrelevant. The Christians who have mistreated me in whatever way didn't do it because they were Christians, they did it because they were assholes.

 

So don't assume that there's anything about your religion that let anybody down. Don't assume there's anything you need to ask our forgiveness for, either. The people who really need to offer apologies probably never will. You're not responsible for their lousy behavior.

[Vixentrox]

Holy and righteous god....

 

The one who orders his chosen to cut pregnant woman's bellies open.

 

The one who encouraged slaughter on a grand scale by his followers.

 

The one who kills babies for fun. Do you really think babies in Sodom were evil?

 

The one who according to many sects will burn those that don't bow and scrape before him forever in a lake of fire.

 

The one who made sure to harden pharoh's heart so he could send his death angel to once again kill babies and children.

 

The one who sent a bear to kill children for teasing a prophet.

 

Christians just act as evil the tribal monster god they worship. Why shouldn't they? Read your bible and you can say with a straight face that your beast-god deserves admiration, love and worship?

[I Broke Free]

please understand that as a believer I cannot condone the statements made in the forums and throughout the site

 

But these same people you speak of told us that they too were believers . How do I know you are not deceiving me? If there is no consensus among Christianity then stating you are a believer is meaningless.

 

 

I wanted to extend to you love and compassion... but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you

 

You seem like a nice person. I wish you the same

[Mythra]

but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you-- not the churchy, screwed up, minister-rapist, corrupted by the world faith, love, and truth-- but that of a holy and righteous God...

 

wait - wait -

 

Don't tell me - let me guess.

 

It's not religion; it's a relationship!

 

woohoo dudes.

 

We have a true christian on our hands. I give taryn about two days here.

 

I can hardly wait to be exposed to the truth he/she brings.

[white_raven23]

First of all, Taryn, Welcome to our Forum.

 

 

 

 

 

This is random, and I am sure a topic that may bring some ridicule with it. I ran across this site randomly, and like so many others that have done likewise I am sure-- had a sort of morbid curiosity, being myself a believer, and frankly- just human.

 

That's good! Curiosity is very healthy, regardless of what the curiosity happens to be about. I'm sure you know there are people who would be upset that you came here, let alone became a member. Well done!

 

 

please understand that as a believer I cannot condone the statements made in the forums and throughout the site, but as a Christian and a sinner (realizing my own crap) I cannot condemn any of it either. Rather I wanted to extend to you love and compassion-- as I have been to that side of there is no God, this is all fake-- and I have had my doubts... so I do understand... and if you need a place to vent about your frustrations with the faith, again I understand... but I do hope that some day the truth will come to you-- not the churchy, screwed up, minister-rapist, corrupted by the world faith, love, and truth-- but that of a holy and righteous God...

 

Just so you know, being ex-christian doesn't automatically make everyone instant atheists (just add skepticism). There are Deists, Agnostics, Pagans (don't panic...it doesn't mean what you may think it does), Buddhists, and lot's of people who don't fit firmly in any one category. You don't automatically go directly from believing in God to not believing there is a god at all.

 

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker... I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

It is something I try to keep in mind....which is why my first post to your thread is very polite. Your future response will guide and directly affect how I respond to you in the future.

 

I can only forgive a fresh attack from a fresh source. When someone offends you once...it is easy to forgive.

 

But I'm not a doormat. Those individuals who have constantly come in here, blasting away with their eyes closed without attempting to learn anything....REPEATEDLY do not deserve forgiveness.

 

It is worthwhile to remember to stop and take a breath before accidentaly tearing into someone who really does want to learn and understand, and had chosen poor words unthinkingly.

 

I am sorry that so many believers so often forget this... and that you must reap the effects of that ignorance.

 

I'm sorry they forget that too. Ignorance is curable though. It is inconsideration that is intolerable.

 

Welcome and stick around.

[Taphophilia]

Taryn,

 

Welcome.

 

The first couple paragraphs of your post seemed sincere, however the next ones were full of assumptions that are simply untrue. Although, I think you are trying to be helpful and are concerned about us in a condesending sort of way. However, we are grown ups here and can handle the things Christians throw at us. It is the Christians who seem to flee with their tails between their legs because their pat answers and memorized arguements don't work on us.

 

I have to ask if you have even read through a discussion where we discuss Christianity in a serious tone? Some of the things you read here will be a shock to your system. However, the beginning stages of detox are not pleasant. Few Christians can take it.

 

Taph

[Poonis]

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker... I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

Taryn,

 

The very root of christianity is founded in structured and intentional deceit and the promotion of ignorance as truth. Those who cling to this filth, even if only to say that any one verse in the bible is considered "good", are themselves guilty of perpetuating the needless suffering of humanity. For the magnitude of this corruption, through this disgusting forfiture of knowledge and reason for blind obedience to a myth, there can be no forgiveness, save for the whole-hearted rejection of christianity itself.

 

If you want forgiveness, begin by looking closer at the crumbled, cracked, and disintigrated foundation that you have built your so-called faith upon. The rest will follow.

[Purple]

First of all hi Taryn, do you have any intention of coming back or are you a fly by??

 

This is random, and I am sure a topic that may bring some ridicule with it. I ran across this site randomly, and like so many others that have done likewise I am sure-- had a sort of morbid curiosity, being myself a believer, and frankly- just human.[/

quote]

 

I really want to know why you think we ridicule anyone here? I am not saying we do not, but ever stop and wonder why??

 

I was humbled wondering into the site, as I realized that I am probably one amongst a hundred Christians that have come in here-- and I have seen at least one example of attack directed at you from other Christians... almost amusing even is that they attack you for attacking our faith...

 

Thanks for noticing, yeah, sometimes people suck, what can I say.

 

please understand that as a believer I cannot condone the statements made in the forums and throughout the site,

 

kay, but it is not up to you to condone or not, since you are a Christian your feelings and opinions about ex-christian.net don't matter.

 

but as a Christian and a sinner (realizing my own crap) I cannot condemn any of it either.

 

no you cannot condemn this site, nor can you condone it, oh you can say I condemn, condone, don't condone, but its all just malarkey, so much ado about nothing.

 

 

My faith, when I had one, was not about church, people or ministers. It was about believeing in God, Jesus and the Bible. I went into the church due to the bible and I left due to the bible.

 

I will accept your love and compassion, when you accept mine, otherwise I will say your offer IS churchy, worldly, screwed up by peopel religion.

 

furthermore, I ask your forgiveness for the attacks that have been made by others claiming to represent the faith, displaying neither love nor their Maker...

 

I assume they are grown ups and can apologise for themselves, I will accept their apologies when they do.

 

 

I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

The church did not let me down, you ... I don't even know you. You want to apologise, apologise for assuming I do not have brain enough to hold onto some cosmic truth because people are jerks. Again I, and many here, did not leave the church cuz peopel suck, people in the church suck, peopel out of the church suck, pretty much people suck. Sometimes certain people do not suck, those people I will do back flips to keep in my life. The bible is BULL thats why I left, pure and simple.

 

 

Maybe your heart is in the right place. Maybe if you had read enough to not once again say, oh I am so sorry the people of the church let you down blah blah blah, this might have been a break, instead it is same ole same ole.

 

 

its not a war between us, but rather one on the heavenly realm...

 

Bible snake snot.

 

If ya want I am sure many of us could find you the "We battle not against fleash and blood" verse.

 

I am sorry that so many believers so often forget this... and that you must reap the effects of that ignorance.

 

They do not forget this bible verse, it's quoted often, it is used as an excuse to be here doing "battle". Then when we say nay to anything they say, they can go back to church, or their small group, and/or bible study and talk abuot how thay witnessed to us, and tell how they were persecuted, and get a bunch of pats on the back. Atta boy!

 

Ignorance?? yeah there's a lot of that going around.

 

So, Taryn have you been ridiculed enough now? Do you think you could actaully get to know people here before you decide why we are ex-christians?

 

Lets try this again shall we?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Hi, I'm Purple, I used to be a Christian, now I am an agnostic, that has respect for the ancient Roman Lares out of respect for my Erus. I left the Christian church several years ago because it became apparent to me that it was not truth. If you would like to read my ex testimony you can find it here...

 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2405

 

You can read the testimonies of many of the rest of us here

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showforum=5

 

You will find many reasons why people have left Christianity, maybe even a few who were hurt by it. You will find though, if you read, that is not the most common reason by far.

[BlueGiant]

Going through your points one by one, taryn ...

 

Welcome to the site. It's always interesting to see a Christian come in here and admit their curiosity.

 

As for the attacks: we're used to them. Some of us engaged in them in the past, others were attacked for being the "wrong" type of Christian, etc. It is more of a human nature thing, that hasn't seemed to change, to me, no matter how much Jesus a person gets.

 

You are coming and trying to understand, a good sight more than most of our most ardent critics have ever done. I hope you stick around for a while and eventually do so. (and while I don't like to proselytize, at the same time, I will admit that I feel that Christianity is a sham on an objective level, and I hope that you find the truth that many here have, I guess in the same way that you hope that we find yours, so that you can be free as well. Our biases are important to admit, are they not?)

 

I accept your apology, though forgiveness for others is nor yours to ask and until they do so, is not mine to give. Especially without compensation for what wrongs were done. The church should get on its knees and beg for forgiveness from most of us, most of us feel wronged, cheated or worse. It wasn't the chruch that drove me away, and it did open my eyes to the truth, and for that I thank them, it was the first clue that led me to the truth I have found (and no, it isn't Christ.) Perhaps we can call it even...

 

In any event, it was not the people that woke most of us up.

 

There is a battle only because others want one. I have no more desire to fight, but I cannot sit by and do nothing when someone declares me and mine their enemy. I cannot forgive those who persist, it is impossible, even a Christian agrees with me on that. I cannot forgive a nonexistent god either, just doesn't work.

 

I am with you on wanting to find the love of a god, but at the same time, what I see around me and have grown up with shows me a simple fact: even if a god exists, it doesn't care, and there is no love to be had. That last part is up to us.

 

If you made it through that ramble, I commend you. And I am truly impressed if you get through all of this (an actual curious Christian is an oddity around here). Perhaps this can be the starting point for a dialogue.

 

As I have said above, as it seems you seek to learn: welcome.

[Guest taryn]

hey guys... haha, i was quite shocked by the number of comments already recieved-- so often these boards are just dead...

 

but I will not lie, I haven't yet read everything- and probably won't get around to that immediately because I have a frackin 12 page paper due the day after next, exams to study for... gah. trying to make rent, and make As... i'm quite certain this isn't what college life is all about...

 

also in response to the question posed by some of you, as far as- have i read all of this or that... no, no i haven't... i'll admit my faults, laziness even- i've been so swamped with work and find that reading 9000 pages a day for classes sufficient to meet my reading quota for the day... perhaps i will eventually get to know what yalls real thoughts are from present conversations- rather than going through all of the forum archives...

 

and i guess it would be simple enough for us to hear lay out all of our cards on the table and get it out of the way-- i'm not ignorant, and will not try to insult you by assuming that you are. i don't assume that i have any magic words or powers that will bring you to my truth... please don't expect that you do either. My beliefs are firmly implanted, and I do not come here out of wondering whether or not my truth is real-- i have tasted too much of it, smelt too much of it, felt too much of it to believe otherwise...

 

and i'm sure that you are equally set in your own ways and beliefs... so lets not try to fool each other... i come here not out of seeking "truth", or others versions of it... but rather out of seeking people... you know the old saying, "ask not for whom the bell tolls..."? i think that mentality has gone too long neglected, ignored-- Christian, heathen, pagan, black, white,gold, whatever-- we're a part of the fabric of humanity, are we not? so lets pretend that that is somehow enough reason to communicate with one another, rather than with motive...

 

you say that you have all been Christians- then you should understand that I cannot condone you and say, in view of my own beliefs, that its okay-- believe what you want, that's dandy! nor will i try to be your BEST FRIEND or whatever... as we haven't the necessary common ground for such an intimate bond... with those things out of the way... and the clock nearing midnight I guess that it is time that I end this ramble and get back to work...

 

also- i'm getting a feeling already that i am going to be offended in my interactions in the forum, and have already been somewhat so... i guess people just tend to get that way... am i the only one that is sick of the attempts to tiptoe around offending people? nobody is ballsy enough in their convictions anymore... boo. (and yes i know, i over generalize... i apologize)

[Guest taryn]

one last thing- since it was so frequently addressed in the replies....

 

you say that i cannot ask forgiveness for the wrongs of other Christians...

 

yet, and you cannot tell me that I would be completely wrong here, there are those who would hold the transgressions of my fellow-Christians against me, as a part of the whole...

 

so i do not withdraw my apologies and repentance... because truth is i am a part of the whole... and that's all i can say.

[crazy-tiger]

one last thing- since it was so frequently addressed in the replies....

 

you say that i cannot ask forgiveness for the wrongs of other Christians...

That is true... asking someone to forgive someone who harmed them, when the one who harmed is convinced that they did the right thing, is condoning it...

 

Not quite the result you are wanting, but that's how it is. (we went overboard on this last week, so please, don't bring it up)

yet, and you cannot tell me that I would be completely wrong here, there are those who would hold the transgressions of my fellow-Christians against me, as a part of the whole...

Again, that is true. But it's deeper than you think... It's not just the transgressions of your fellow Christians, but the mind-set of the religion itself that is held against you.

 

We can usually tell within a couple of posts just what attitude a Christian has when they arrive here. So far, you are showing that you are better than the typical Christian. You'll still be labouring under a cloud until we get to know you, but there's a good chance that it's already lifting...

so i do not withdraw my apologies and repentance... because truth is i am a part of the whole... and that's all i can say.

Hmm... are you responsible for anothers actions? No?

 

That is why your apologies and repentance on others behalf is hollow... inevitable, given our nature to remove the "stain" of badness from whatever group we belong to, (who want's to belong to a bad group?) but still hollow.

 

 

Not that I'm having a go here... it's rare that we get a Christian who recognises the harm Christianity has done, but it's just that apologies by proxy sound insincere(sp?) and can really annoy people.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and welcome... I'll keep the oven turned down low, you don't sound like a roaster.

 

also- i'm getting a feeling already that i am going to be offended in my interactions in the forum, and have already been somewhat so... i guess people just tend to get that way... am i the only one that is sick of the attempts to tiptoe around offending people? nobody is ballsy enough in their convictions anymore... boo. (and yes i know, i over generalize... i apologize)

By the way... if you really want to spend some time where avoiding offending someone is not so, well, insisted upon, can I recommend taking a look at the Lions Den forum...

 

 

Just put your asbestos suit on first... it can get pretty hot in there.

[aynalhub]

one last thing- since it was so frequently addressed in the replies....

 

you say that i cannot ask forgiveness for the wrongs of other Christians...

 

yet, and you cannot tell me that I would be completely wrong here, there are those who would hold the transgressions of my fellow-Christians against me, as a part of the whole...

 

so i do not withdraw my apologies and repentance... because truth is i am a part of the whole... and that's all i can say.

 

your calm defenses only strengthen what is obvious to others and seemingly not to you: you are here to assert moral superiority over us. you are trying to redeem your religion and beliefs in our eyes by undoing what the more hot-headed and simple-minded among you have said and done to people like us, but in doing so, you are only reinforcing your ego, attempting to settle the unrest of the embarrassment you felt, making yourself the center. a humble person would quietly regret these things and pray in secret for them, you, in fact, are trying to "win" something.

 

i have had emotional experiences in christian churches and also in dabbling with other religions and philosophies, and they have all been eerily similar. the only thing with christianity is that the god of the old testament is a murderous monster, that looks on at all sorts of atrocities and has childish human emotions, and the new testament is a self-contradictory hodge-podge which can't even agree on the details of jesus' life aside from some of his sayings. jesus is a magician, then messiah, then god, and then john throws things in like jesus saying only god, and not himself, is good, and that his "father is greater than he is". women are liberated in one passage and condemned as inferior in the next, and all in all, christianity is responsible for countless unnecessary deaths and alienations.

 

if you are like me, you hold on to your beliefs by seeing the bible in its blatant falseness through the lens of your emotional experiences. maybe you also fear disappointing all the lovely society you have in the church, and your family members that are also believers. you see, there is so much psychological pressure on you, you scarcely have a chance to even consider that it is false.

 

the bible is patently ridiculous and christianity has created so much destruction and separation, so much so that despite my emotions, i finally saw the chaos and insufficiency of my own mind and realized that anything i think can never approach the truth. and to me, to be a christian, to make-believe with others once a week, in front of children, poisoning their minds through their innate respect for adults, is inexcusable for a compassionate human being.

 

then again, now *i* am asserting moral superiority over you, in the guise of loving compassion. doesn't feel great, does it? and besides, both of our conceptions of the universe and god are full of paradoxes, because we are animals with finite brains, and we are both likely to be very, very wrong in the end. only, i am aware of that.

 

thanks for coming here, it helps us on a certain level.

[Guest taryn]

first- do not assume that i hold on to my faith because it is sooo pleasing to me. faith is hard, life is hard... but i've chosen my side... its not based on family, they aren't Christians, it's not based on happiness and harmony, they aren't always present... but on hope.

 

i think that some of you are just looking for me to say the wrong thing and want to attack every i say, when said not in the way that some of you are taking it at all, so as chase me off or whatever... for those of you who have been less shallow than all of that, i appreciate it and thank you.

 

"you are here to assert moral superiority over us. you are trying to redeem your religion and beliefs in our eyes by undoing what the more hot-headed and simple-minded among you have said and done to people like us, but in doing so, you are only reinforcing your ego, attempting to settle the unrest of the embarrassment you felt, making yourself the center."

 

i am sorry that you see my prescence here as being such... again i think that you are expecting that i am searching for something i do not... i come here not to assert moral superiority, but to give a face, a personality to those that I pray for... and what's more, to extend the realm of my experience from the safe... that you would condemn me for this I am sorry.

 

But you will expect what you will I suppose. The bias are on both sides i'm sure.

[waynus]

Taryn

 

Like you we have a hope and are happy to share it with you. Most of us look to the day when with calm and rational minds we all can put off ignorance and superstision. This is the hope we wish to share with you, this is the wisdom that we bring to your life.

 

 

You are not to blame for the actions of others. This is profound truth for you to learn. You are only responsible for your own actions. Accept this and feel the freedom it brings you.

 

 

The hope, peace and freedom we offer is yours for the taking. We understand that it is hard for many to follow this path, you are always welcome to ask for help. Just remember to listen and act on the guidence offered.

[aynalhub]

i come here not to assert moral superiority, but to give a face, a personality to those that I pray for... and what's more, to extend the realm of my experience from the safe... that you would condemn me for this I am sorry.

 

i am doing what you want, extending the input you receive outside of your safe zone, to see your reaction, to give you a face. you are sorry that i condemn you for this, but that very apology is the only thing i was condemning in the first place: it is the work of your ego, desperately trying to maintain the image you have of yourself as a kind person with good intentions. no matter what i say, your ego will think of a new way to distract you from its self-protective techniques, resulting in your 'meek as a lamb' tone. in essence, though you appear humble, your utter security in your own ideas betrays your conceit.

 

i completly would agree with you if you said *i* was conceited to imagine what you are thinking...please understand that 80 percent of what i say is devil's advocate material designed to make you think. minds are like anything physical, they receive information and react to it according to their constitution. that's all i'm doing. it is the very exercise which i believe compelled you to actually post a message, rather than just read and experience other postings. don't reject what i say, experience it as outside your safe zone, as you yourself say you wanted.

 

you say you believe because of hope, and i would agree. i do not, however, agree that hope is a good thing. hope is an extension of the ego, a kind of picture of the world as it would please you most, as you personally desire it to be. of course we all want the same things, peace, love, health, for mankind...but to indulge in a fairy tale that promises to bring this about by magic is a waste of energy which could actually be used to improve your immediate surroundings.

 

while hope of rescue and hope of improvement of various kinds can be a kind of psychological 'food' which aids in survival, the hope that you indulge in, that an outside entity will come and do everything for us, is counter=productive for humanity. not only that, but, as i said, as an exclusive system, it has, like all exclusive systems, led to countless needless murders of the people it purports to shepherd!

 

you *do* in fact, claim superiority because you claim to have not only found, but recognized and stuck with what is true, and we have not. you say we have been led astray by disappointment or spiritual warfare while you, in your superior nature, have remained immune to such attacks.

 

you may say it is the work of the holy spirit that has given you the understanding to recognize the truth, but then, why doesn't he do it for us, too, if it's that easy? and if you say he does, but we are too stubborn to respond to it or have some other fault, then again, you say you are superior to us by being of such a nature to respond to him whereas we are too stubborn.

 

what if i said i pray to whatever it is might hear me that you will see the truth of what i'm saying? would you see simple compassion there, or would you see the work of the ego again?

 

i too can claim that i say all this out of compassion for you, wanting to open your eyes. it doesn't feel quite right, though, does it.

 

but honestly, and i mean this from the bottom of my heart, i do care for you for some reason, and am pouring out my heart...thank you for the chance.

[Amanda]

 

 

WOW!!!! Aynalhub... that was wonderful!

[Eponymic]

i think that some of you are just looking for me to say the wrong thing and want to attack every i say, when said not in the way that some of you are taking it at all, so as chase me off or whatever... for those of you who have been less shallow than all of that, i appreciate it and thank you.

 

Oh yeah, there's plenty of people around here who are still very irate & bitter at what Christianity has done wrong to them. So you'll just have to understand & expect that angle while you're around. Hopefully you'll come to understand the reasoning behind it though.

 

i am sorry that you see my prescence here as being such... again i think that you are expecting that i am searching for something i do not... i come here not to assert moral superiority, but to give a face, a personality to those that I pray for... and what's more, to extend the realm of my experience from the safe... that you would condemn me for this I am sorry.

 

The above statement really relates back to the first part of what I said though. There's an over stuffed convoy of semi-trailers full of animosity, bitterness, & other feelings of anger against Christianity by many people around here. If you come to understand why, you'll see why that anger is in many ways justified.

 

Personally, I don't think you have to take back in anyway you're desire to apologize for the attacks of other Christians. If anything, it shows a good amount of character on your part.

 

But you will expect what you will I suppose. The bias are on both sides i'm sure.

 

You could call it bias, I call it knowledge. I don't harbor resentment against Christianity. But I do condemn it and other religions for all the atrocities they have been and continue to be responsible for. There's more harm than help wrapped up in organized religion, occassionally the good person emerges from it (which you seem to be), but more often than not, it causes more harm than good.

[Pariah]

Welcome Taryn.

 

I'm curious, how did you find this site?

[sonofspong]

Ummm.... how many testimonies and posts did you read before posting?

 

I ask because it seems you may be suffering the same misconception that many Christians have, both here and elsewhere - which is that in general non-believers leave the church because the church "let us down" or "made us resent [it]". Or that it was some human failing, abuse, attack, or whatnot that drove us away.

 

You seem remorseful that many Christians do act like utter jerks, and I have no quarrel with you there. But I would advise against assuming that the jerkiness of Christians is the only reason why many of us left. It isn't even the primary reason, for a lot of us here. I'd say it's safe to say that most posters here left because something caused them to take a closer look at their faith, and they found the religion as a whole wanting somehow. It wasn't a case of resentment, or of being "let down". It was just looking at it and realizing Christianity simply doesn't make good sense.

 

This isn't to say that nobody here was ever treated like crap by a Christian. I know I have been, on a number of occasions. But something I've learned in the time since is that ultimately, those people just used their religion as a tool. It wasn't the religion itself that was an issue. In fact the religion was irrelevant. The Christians who have mistreated me in whatever way didn't do it because they were Christians, they did it because they were assholes.

 

So don't assume that there's anything about your religion that let anybody down. Don't assume there's anything you need to ask our forgiveness for, either. The people who really need to offer apologies probably never will. You're not responsible for their lousy behavior.

 

 

 

Like gwenmead here said, not everyone leaves the church due to bad experiences. I grew up in a loving christian family, was treated well, and had no particularly bad experiences at church. Christians in general seemed ok to me.

 

I deconverted for several reasons. My family are very liberal christians, in a sense. They believe mostly because its what they were taught when growing up...they just accepted it, rather than question it. But they still cling to rediculous superstitious beliefs like "blaspheming god will bring bad luck" or "demons can get in the house". You would probably call them "false christians", because they sure as hell arent going to church on a wedesnday. And maybe you are right.

 

I left the faith because, unlike my family, them, I chose to question god and Christianity. If you're god does exist, its his damn fault for giving me that urge to question. I first began to question your god when I was quite young, but instead put my questions aside, and just accepted what I knew to be unfair and wrong.

 

"Yeah, its horrible that millions of good people will burn in hell simply because they never heard of Jesus, but, oh well. Whats important is that "I" was lucky enough to be born into this faith, so good for me"

 

The irony of all this is, it was AFTER my deconversion that I saw my family for who they are: Hypocritical bastards. I still love them of course, and they still love me, but I can't deny im viewed in a different light. I hurts when relatives have the audacity to call ME a dark, confused, and empty soul, when they, at my age, had endulged in every vice known to man, 20x as worse as what I ever have done.

 

And they were the ones with a preacher father. Imagine that.

[Seabiscuit]

I ask that you forgive me and the rest of the church that let you down, and made you resent us. We are all alike human, and will all alike stumble-- but there is no excuse for God to be lacking when we claim to speak in His name.

 

 

For some of us, or at least me, "let you down" is hardly the case. Your post sounds more like two people accidently bumping into one another or steping on another's toe. Try child abuse in the name of biblegod and all for the good of a child--out of love. Try "spare the rod and spoil the child" to the tune of bruises, cuts, and broken skin on the place we'd be arrested for if not clothed.

 

Your post just bearly scratches the surface of "let you down." You've much more research to do before you can get into the layers of "let you down."