No More Kid Gloves

[Checkmate]

Far too often we who have abandoned faith in Christ/Jehovah-god try explaining our departure WITHOUT destroying the faith of those who would hear us. This waffling is ludicrous and pointless.

 

Why should we even TRY to cushion the blow? Do we secretly believe that our decision is wrong? Why shouldn’t we “disturb” the faith of our listeners? Is it wrong to inform someone walking on crutches that they no longer need crutches? That their legs are indeed healthy and whole? How is this “wrong” or “cruel”?

 

The fact of the matter is, once we reasonably explain our non-belief we will of necessity take our audience through the steps of unbelief. It is very much like explaining to a prisoner how we escaped the prison, showing them our path to freedom. Should we be surprised or apologetic when this fellow prisoner exercises his/her individual rights and opts for freedom?

 

Disturbing someone’s “faith” is unavoidable. It is inevitable. Truth™ is funny that way.

 

This is NOT cruelty! This is NOT deception! This is NOT a conspiracy! People want to KNOW “Why” we left Christianity. How else can we tell them except we demonstrate the way? To flippantly say, “It just didn’t work out for me” is disingenuous and deceitful. It misleads your audience into believing that there is something wrong with YOU and not the religion. They may believe that YOU wanted to “sin” and so you “rebelled against God”. Or maybe it was just an accident, or a failure on your part to pray or believe hard enough. (Or some other sophomoric drivel Christians spew forth to explain apostasy.)

 

We owe it to everyone to speak the Truth. (Wouldn't YOU have preferred it if someone had shown you the escape hatch before you wasted years living in prison?) If their “faith” is strong enough (i.e. if their brainwashing is complete) then NOTHING that we say will disturb them. However, IF they possess “weak faith”, and our walking away appeals to them and gives them courage to do likewise, then so be it. That is their choice. We are doing nothing wrong. In fact, we should celebrate as does the Christian when he/she “wins” a soul to “Christ.”

 

Christians are “bold” in evangelism, so why shouldn’t WE be bold in walking free?

 

“Am I now your enemy for telling you the truth?”

 

Christians LOVE to ask that question of us. I say that it is high time we turn the tables.

[Dhampir]

Absolutely. Anyone who can be crushed but remains willing to listen afterward should not be allowed to persist in their delusion just because it makes them feel better.

[waynus]

You are right. It's a hangover from christian brainwashing. If all we have done is follow the truth then why hesitate to speak it plainly.

 

How many of those here have had to put up with countless attempts to reconvert them?

 

Good Post!!!

[cathuria]

 

Disturbing someone’s “faith” is unavoidable.

 

 

It's also the right thing to do.

Bravo

[Gobbler]

Mr. Grinch, thank you for the encouragement! You also posted your advice to me on another post regarding my niece. Why can't I be bold in my "truth" just as christians are? I admit, there is a certain amount of fear. This comes from years of indoctrination. It will take time to put it behind me.

[Lycorth]

I agree - it's one thing if you went out of your way to attack someone's faith, but there's no need to tiptoe around the issue. If you think Xianity is crap, just say it. Perhaps you'll get someone else to think about your reasons and plant the seeds of doubt. I am revealing my deconversion to some friends right now and I know they will not be broken into pieces if I say Xianity is sick, and I intend to.

 

And if their faith ends up in pieces, just be there to be supportive as they endure their own deconversion. It's not as if they can't live without being Xians.

[pitchu]

I'm in complete agreement, Mr. Grinch.

 

Aside from situations where it would be self-protective, why would the truthful explanation for our apostasy be the one truth we'd now withhold?

[charley]

Who are these people that we are supposed to "let have it", and why bother talking to them? The only situation where I may engage in some discussion is when an evangelist would bring it up with me. But since they are unbable to think consecutively to any meaningful depth on the issue, I cut it short. I've got no desire to "convert " people away from christianity. I think the very nature of being independent from christianity makes it impossible to "convert" any of them, because for them to free themselves of it they have to strive for self awareness and think for themselves, as opposed to someone being converted to christianity only needing to submit. That means that anyone coming from their side to ours has to do it on their own completely, there is no argument. Something inside them has to compel them to think.

I think the best way to represent our views publically is to just show how we live well without the fearful encumbrances of their faith. Those christians who we know can see how we handle all the challenges in life: loss and grief, work and happiness, without needing assurances that we are blessed by god and guaranteed an afterlife. I think people have to earn their way into our ranks. The mere claim of being emancipated from christianity I always answer with "...oh yeah?...". That's because the emotional ties of christian pathology are so strong, as we well know, that people are driven to not only go back to the flock as we all have seen. They are also driven to find all the comforts of christianity in new forms...while thinking that the mere sleeping in on sundays and some blasphemous speech iis all that is needed to sever the ties. To completely split, people have to rid themselves of the expectation that "...good things happen to good people...", that all love will be returned to you, and that all work is never wasted. Most people still believe those things in their heart of hearts, it's a basic formating of thought derived, I think, from religious influence.

I point out all that detail to show that for someone to feel an un-christianlike world-model as a fact it takes a lot more than a changing of mind by debate, and instead require a radical re--wiring that they can only do themselves. Accurate perceptions of how the world works is needed, followed by accurate reasoning. Shouting people down is for christians, because it doesn't take much to be one of them.

[Checkmate]

Who are these people that we are supposed to "let have it", and why bother talking to them? The only situation where I may engage in some discussion is when an evangelist would bring it up with me. But since they are unbable to think consecutively to any meaningful depth on the issue, I cut it short. I've got no desire to "convert " people away from christianity.

.........snipped............

Charley, I think you missed my point.

 

"These people" are merely friends and family who seek to know why we've left Christianity. My post is not a call to anti-evangelism, but an encouragement NOT to shy away from honest discussion. All I am saying is that we should not be squeamish or embarrassed or afraid to talk someone through our faith exiting. I'm not advocating that we go knocking on doors and challenging anyone. I'm saying that if and when the subject comes up, we should NOT leave the field of battle for fear of hurting someone's feelings, or upsetting someone's faith.

 

We "bother" talking to them because they asked us for information. We aren't "letting them have it". We're telling them the truth.

 

Personally, I despise talking about religion. But if the subject comes up and someone wants to know why I am an apostate atheist, then I'm going to tell them.

 

This is not a desire to de-convert anyone. This is my desire to speak my mind honestly as Christians are allowed to do.

[Vigile]

To flippantly say, “It just didn’t work out for me” is disingenuous and deceitful.

 

Amen Brother!

 

(Wouldn't YOU have preferred it if someone had shown you the escape hatch before you wasted years living in prison?)

 

Absolutely! I wish to hell someone would have pointed me in the right direction earlier in life. I wouldn't have wasted my early 20s when I should have been out sewing wild oats.

 

When going through my deconversion and examining my faith with a fine tooth comb I justified it by saying that if the foundation was real, the faith would stand. If it wasn't real, it should necessarily fall. The same should be true for others.

 

But alas, most xtians have voluntarily lobotomized themselves, so explanations are likely to fall on deaf ears. It can be very freeing for us to at least maintain our own intellectual honesty though.

[SkepticOfBible]

Being an Indian, I always believed in Self Defense. You don't attack me, I don't attack. However if you dare to challenge me. BRING IT ON!!!!!!

[Alice]

In essence I agree with you Mr.Grinch - but not in tone and not in some of the detail.

 

Why should we even TRY to cushion the blow? Do we secretly believe that our decision is wrong? Why shouldn’t we “disturb” the faith of our listeners? Is it wrong to inform someone walking on crutches that they no longer need crutches? That their legs are indeed healthy and whole? How is this “wrong” or “cruel”?

 

Some people are psychologically dependent on their belief system - I would always seek to be gentle and supportive with those I care about. As I deconverted my marriage went into a tail spin, I experienced so much internal stress and strife I couldn't concentrate on my work and made several 'mistakes' because I was so distracted. I believe that I have a responsibility to others not to push them into situations where I have no idea how they will or will not cope.

 

 

People want to KNOW “Why” we left Christianity. How else can we tell them except we demonstrate the way? To flippantly say, “It just didn’t work out for me” is disingenuous and deceitful. It misleads your audience into believing that there is something wrong with YOU and not the religion. They may believe that YOU wanted to “sin” and so you “rebelled against God”. Or maybe it was just an accident, or a failure on your part to pray or believe hard enough. (Or some other sophomoric drivel Christians spew forth to explain apostasy.)

 

I agree that the 'truth' needs to be told - but I am not sure if this applies in every situation. If someone is so entrenched in their beliefs that all the 'truth' will do is cause them pain and heartbreak - why inflict it? I am having this dilemma at the moment. My sister is an ardent fundamentalist, she also has a level of learning difficulty, she lives quite an isolated life in which all her support networks ar other fundamentalists who would 'expel' her should she change her beliefs. I do not get on with her - we clash terribly and I do not want to be responsible for her after care. If I was to tell her my understanding of 'truth' and it caused her to question her's ... well I don't want that responsibility on my shoulders. if she starts to question herself rather than ask questions of me, I'll be happy to share my honest answers with her ... but I will wear my kid gloves - because I remember how I was and I was not someone who was shaken out of my beliefs ... I walked away very slowly. Perhaps being bluntly confronted with another worldview was a good exit route for for some people - does that necessarily mean it will be for everyone?

 

 

In fact, we should celebrate as does the Christian when he/she “wins” a soul to “Christ.”

 

Christians are “bold” in evangelism, so why shouldn’t WE be bold in walking free?

 

Christians LOVE to ask that question of us. I say that it is high time we turn the tables.

 

Bold evangelism is something I'm really glad to have left behind where I think it belongs - in the heartless tool kit of the christian who thinks other people should believe as s/he does to booster his confidence in the system.

 

Although you later on say that your post was not a call to anti-evangelism, I think it sounds like that here.

 

 

"These people" are merely friends and family who seek to know why we've left Christianity.

 

I don't understand the concept of mere friends and family. My friends and family(for the most part) are made up of people that I love and cherish. I would always prefer to act in way that caused them as little hurt as possible - eventhough I don't always manage this.

 

My post is not a call to anti-evangelism, but an encouragement NOT to shy away from honest discussion. All I am saying is that we should not be squeamish or embarrassed or afraid to talk someone through our faith exiting. I'm not advocating that we go knocking on doors and challenging anyone. I'm saying that if and when the subject comes up, we should NOT leave the field of battle for fear of hurting someone's feelings, or upsetting someone's faith.

 

I think I have gone through stages of being 'afraid' to let people know - this was about my 'fear' of the consequences, i.e that they would then try and reconvert me or that they would cut off contact with me. I think that is a stage that it is good to be encouraged to come through, becauses in essence if we 'hide' where we are at and what we believe, we deny ourselves and that is not good, but I think there are good grounds for being cautious, for 'softening the blow' for being careful that we don't unduly hurt those whom we claim to love and care about.

[Cat]

This is a really useful thread for me at the moment, as I'm in the early stages of letting friends and family know and finding it hellishly difficult. The level of emotion I feel anyway is high, losing faith after 40 years has shook me to the core, so trying to explain stuff to people who just can't comprehend it all and whose reactions are shock and horror and all round negative towards me only makes things worse and tends to force me into a defensive "clamming up" position. I don't have the energy really to explain and if I did, I'm a little afraid I'll go over the top due to the level of emotion I'm keeping in and start ranting and raving, which won't help anyone, especially me. I also don't have anyone in real life I can discuss this with or get support from. I think my failure to engage in conversation is more self preservation than anything else currently.

 

But I take on board Mr Grinch's point, and when I get my strength up, I'll try and dialogue and explain exactly why after 40 years I suddenly see it all as so much fantasy and myth. But at the moment I'm just concentrating on letting people know without resulting in too much damage to my system.

[Checkmate]

In essence I agree with you Mr.Grinch - but not in tone and not in some of the detail.

.....................

I agree that the 'truth' needs to be told - but I am not sure if this applies in every situation. If someone is so entrenched in their beliefs that all the 'truth' will do is cause them pain and heartbreak - why inflict it? I am having this dilemma at the moment.

....................

Perhaps being bluntly confronted with another worldview was a good exit route for for some people - does that necessarily mean it will be for everyone?

..................

Although you later on say that your post was not a call to anti-evangelism, I think it sounds like that here.

Hello, Alice (Did you used to be "Hesitent"?)

 

Of course every situation is different, and not all people "need" to hear the Truth™. Many members here have parents and grandparents whom they will NOT EVER speak of their apostasy, for fear of causing them harm. Just as with your situation, their is wisdom in not UNNECESSARILY disturbing someone's faith.

 

But, as I keep stressing, I'm speaking of those people STRONG enough to confront YOU and DEMAND an accounting from you. THESE people CAN handle the news. In fact, they are ASKING for it. There is no harm in telling them the Truth™, is there?

"These people" are merely friends and family who seek to know why we've left Christianity.

 

I don't understand the concept of mere friends and family. My friends and family(for the most part) are made up of people that I love and cherish. I would always prefer to act in way that caused them as little hurt as possible - eventhough I don't always manage this.

...................

As to my use of the word "merely", I don't use it in the sense of denigration. If you'll place it in context you will see that I mean only to distinguish one group of people from another. "Friends and family" as oppossed to "others". Take the word "merely" out of the sentence and you'll see that it is "merely" a qualifier.

 

This is the trouble with the internet. Since we cannot hear the words spoken, nor see the person speaking, people rely on checking the "tone" of someone's written words. And many times this "tone" is in the imagination/interpretation of the readers. Sometimes correct, sometimes wrong.

 

I can't help this. I just wish people would leave my "tone" out of this and just deal with the "essence" of my post.

 

But, for the record, my "tone" in this thread is one of encouragement. I'm not throwing down a gauntlet, nor am I commanding anyone to take up the Anti-Christ Banner and assault the Christian stronghold of weak-minded believers with impunity.

 

I'm MERELY saying that IF and WHEN the situation arises, don't feel compelled to back off from defending your unbelief. Christians are a LOT tougher than they look. I doubt if your "anti-testimony" will make a dent in their faith anyway.

 

Just speak your piece and get on with your life.

 

Or DON'T speak your piece. If silence better suits YOU, then remain silent. But if biting your tongue is pissing you off, then I strongly suggest that you open your mouth and be HONEST with people.

[charley]

"These people" are merely friends and family who seek to know why we've left Christianity. My post is not a call to anti-evangelism, but an encouragement NOT to shy away from honest discussion. All I am saying is that we should not be squeamish or embarrassed or afraid to talk someone through our faith exiting. I'm not advocating that we go knocking on doors and challenging anyone. I'm saying that if and when the subject comes up, we should NOT leave the field of battle for fear of hurting someone's feelings, or upsetting someone's faith.

 

We "bother" talking to them because they asked us for information. We aren't "letting them have it". We're telling them the truth.

 

Our differences are that you are assuming that these things can be honestly discussed, whereas I think that in most cases they can't. I think that christian influence is too pervasive in most christian minds. When they bring up the subject, I have for years been just as forthright as you have suggested. I even wear a pentagram ring, and carry an identification card identifying me as a contributing member of the First Church of Satan (paradoxically, a fervently atheist organization). People ask me about the ring almot daily and I've shown the card many times. What I'm pointing out is what I think can be reasonably expected in doing this. Apart from enjoying being yourself, as I do, the answer is not much as far as persuasive influence on people. Most people aren't interested in what proves to be true, they just want their desires to become true. The proof of that is in every scrap of advertising that drives our consumer culture. I am not saying to shy away, only that don't expect people to really be very interested in what you think.

[Checkmate]

This is a really useful thread for me at the moment, as I'm in the early stages of letting friends and family know and finding it hellishly difficult. The level of emotion I feel anyway is high, losing faith after 40 years has shook me to the core, so trying to explain stuff to people who just can't comprehend it all and whose reactions are shock and horror and all round negative towards me only makes things worse and tends to force me into a defensive "clamming up" position. I don't have the energy really to explain and if I did, I'm a little afraid I'll go over the top due to the level of emotion I'm keeping in and start ranting and raving, which won't help anyone, especially me. I also don't have anyone in real life I can discuss this with or get support from. I think my failure to engage in conversation is more self preservation than anything else currently.

 

But I take on board Mr Grinch's point, and when I get my strength up, I'll try and dialogue and explain exactly why after 40 years I suddenly see it all as so much fantasy and myth. But at the moment I'm just concentrating on letting people know without resulting in too much damage to my system.

Cat, you take your sweet time "getting your strength up". I fully understand and agree with waiting until YOU are healthy enough to have these discussions. We ALL had/have to go through these stages, and in the ealier stage we usually tend to be "snippy" with our answers. (I know I was!)

 

That is what is so great about this forum and forums like this. Not having anywhere else to vent and work out our unbelief in conversation, we can come here and decompress. After you've chopped off the heads of a few internet Christians, you'll find that you've had a cathartic release and will eventually come to a place of peace and comfort where you can calmly discuss things with "real" people.

 

So, my unsolicited advice to you?: Head over to the Lion's Den and take out your frustrations on some visiting Fundy. It's a lot like screaming into a pillow, or punching a bag. No one gets hurt, AND you work out some issues/"demons". Once you're finished, you'll be better able to speak calmly with loved ones.

[Checkmate]

Our differences are that you are assuming that these things can be honestly discussed, whereas I think that in most cases they can't. I think that christian influence is too pervasive in most christian minds. When they bring up the subject, I have for years been just as forthright as you have suggested. I even wear a pentagram ring, and carry an identification card identifying me as a contributing member of the First Church of Satan (paradoxically, a fervently atheist organization). People ask me about the ring almot daily and I've shown the card many times. What I'm pointing out is what I think can be reasonably expected in doing this. Apart from enjoying being yourself, as I do, the answer is not much as far as persuasive influence on people. Most people aren't interested in what proves to be true, they just want their desires to become true. The proof of that is in every scrap of advertising that drives our consumer culture. I am not saying to shy away, only that don't expect people to really be very interested in what you think.

First off, Charley, I'm ASSUMING nothing. I'm ADVOCATING honesty. And THAT is something WE can do. You said that you do it all the time. Thus proving my point. WE can be honest about our unbelief.

 

Will the Christian be "honest"? Who knows? That's out of my hands. I don't even expect it from the Christian as I suspect they will desire to shelter themselves from the Truth. All I'm saying is that we don't HAVE to hide our true colors. Not from everyone, and certainly not all the time.

 

And if people don't want to have an "honest discussion", then don't have one at all. Change the subject. BUT, if they want answers, give them honestly.

 

I'm not on some crusade to get Christians to accept or believe what we say. I'm not. This is NOT about "winning" a debate with Christians. I know beforehand that Christians don't listen well. I know beforehand that their "faith" will remain unchanged. This thread is NOT about "changing a Christian's mind".

 

It's about NOT being afraid to speak about our unbelief. SOME people are having a problem in this area because they fear what it will do to the Christian. And I say that for the MOST part, any Christian who is TOUGH enough to desire this conversation can handle ANYTHING we can dish out.

 

And YES, they ARE interested in what we say. Why else would they ask us for what we think?

[Alice]

Hello, Alice (Did you used to be "Hesitent"?)

 

Yes - I am one and the same - although no longer the same. I changed my name to mark the fact that I no longer felt hesitant about my decision and the direction my life has moved in (I was also finding the ongoing embarrassement over my misspelling a little hard to bear )

 

Of course every situation is different, and not all people "need" to hear the Truth. Many members here have parents and grandparents whom they will NOT EVER speak of their apostasy, for fear of causing them harm. Just as with your situation, their is wisdom in not UNNECESSARILY disturbing someone's faith.

 

I hope this is the case - as I said it is kind of a dilemma for me, because sometimes I find myself in situations where my omission is a dishonesty of sorts but I hope that my intent is in the right place.

 

But, as I keep stressing, I'm speaking of those people STRONG enough to confront YOU and DEMAND an accounting from you. THESE people CAN handle the news. In fact, they are ASKING for it. There is no harm in telling them the Truth, is there?

 

I hadn't picked up on the fact that you were stressing this - but I hear it now, and no I wouldn't think there was any harm in speaking the truth to those that can handle the truth. My difficulty is - I don't find this a straightforward assessment to make.

 

I recently visited a close friend - who I had decided NOT to tell of my apostacy, mainly because she has a whole load of difficult things to deal with - like the fact her sister is dying. However, others had deemed it appropriate to tell her - my apostacy is currently a topic of various 'prayer groups' around the town where I live and she was confronted with this 'truth' in the form of a 'prayer letter' as she sat in her pew.

 

She cried while I tried to explain this to her - needless to say she's pretty close to tears a lot of the time for other reasons but it still upset her. I guess this being the case I may be oversensitive to what at first read as a declaration of 'tell it how it is' to all and sundry. Apologies.

 

As to my use of the word "merely", I don't use it in the sense of denigration.

 

I can see that now.

 

This is the trouble with the internet. Since we cannot hear the words spoken, nor see the person speaking, people rely on checking the "tone" of someone's written words. And many times this "tone" is in the imagination/interpretation of the readers. Sometimes correct, sometimes wrong.

 

So true.

 

 

I can't help this. I just wish people would leave my "tone" out of this and just deal with the "essence" of my post.

 

Seeking clarification can help. Thank you for the claification.

 

If silence better suits YOU, then remain silent. But if biting your tongue is pissing you off, then I strongly suggest that you open your mouth and be HONEST with people.

 

We are in complete agreement on this - if you take a look at the thread odintim started in response to your post - this is the advice I offered.

[Antlerman]

I recently visited a close friend - who I had decided NOT to tell of my apostacy, mainly because she has a whole load of difficult things to deal with - like the fact her sister is dying. However, others had deemed it appropriate to tell her - my apostacy is currently a topic of various 'prayer groups' around the town where I live and she was confronted with this 'truth' in the form of a 'prayer letter' as she sat in her pew.

Hi Alice (the artist formerly know as hesitant ),

 

I couldn't help but feel hurt in my heart to hear this happened like this. It really icky, for lack of a better word for it.

 

I agree with Grinch that being able to stand up for what you believe is an important part of the healing process. I can see it like someone admitting they are a recovering alchololic. But, the truth is not always prudent. Sometimes it's too much for someone else to hear and better left unsaid for those reasons, not because of personal fear. And even so, if someone doesn't feel they want to open a can of worms that they're going to have to go through a painful process to explain to eveyone, then that's fine. It's all about feeling confident in our decisions and how we feel about ourselves.

[Alice]

Thanks Antlerman,

 

I think that timing is important in this respect -as it often is. Both for ourselves and for those we are talking to. There are definitely stages to deconverting and telling those we love and don't want to hurt when we are in an 'angry' stage or a 'healing from hurt' stage is probably fraught with all kinds of risks!

 

Whilst I struggle myself to know when to say something or not - it is truly horrid when someone else takes this decision for you - as with the prayer letter, for I would have no more burdened her with the fact I'd mislaid my car keys than tell her I'd 'lost my religion' at this point in her life and because I'm still healing - I kept crying too! It doesn't look very convincing if you tell someone that in many ways you have never felt happier and this was a very positive step forward - if your mascara is running

 

I told a couple of friends when I was still pretty angry - one of them being my own hubby, and I kind of steamrollered him along the way to his own deconversion, something I now regret.

 

Anyhoo - Mr Grinch - I hope this doesn't look too much like I was having a go at you. I really do appreciate the discussion in this thread. You are so right about it being difficult to know intent over the net and it does seem that somewhere you and I got our lines crossed and I hope they are now uncrossed again

[I Broke Free]

Sometimes it's too much for someone else to hear and better left unsaid.

 

 

I have read through this thread twice now and I keep finding myself wavering back and forth on the issue.

 

It angers me that I DO edit myself to spare religious family members from the truth about my reasons for de-converting, but yet they feel no need to edit themselves about their faith. It DOES sadden me to hear they have fallen into a religious trap that I feel is limiting their happiness and potential. Why am I not given the same degree of consideration that I give them? The only reason I can think of is because they are not aware of how saddened I am at their life choices. The Grinch may be right, I need to voice my sadness or they will have no reason modify their behavior. When I censor myself, I am in a sense telling them that their views carry more validity than my own. That is not the message I want to project.

 

In a few months my nephew will be going a two-year mission for the Mormon Church. He is only eighteen years old and I am very troubled about this. He is not doing well in school and has no direction in his life right now. This is not terribly unusual for an eighteen year old and both his father and I were the same at that age. Sending him on a mission in my eyes is a dreadful thing to do and can do much harm, yet I say nothing at all. He is such a nice kid and I know at that age you think everyone else has all the answers. If my nephew were considering the armed forces I would be all over my brother and my nephew with my opinion; yet because it involves his stupid religion, I remain quiet.

IBF

[Checkmate]

..............

Anyhoo - Mr Grinch - I hope this doesn't look too much like I was having a go at you. I really do appreciate the discussion in this thread. You are so right about it being difficult to know intent over the net and it does seem that somewhere you and I got our lines crossed and I hope they are now uncrossed again

We're good, Alice. After spending so much time arguing over the internet, and getting into misunderstandings, I'm getting pretty good at spotting them when they occur. I don't get mad anymore. I just try and explain myself better.

 

Peace.

[Checkmate]

I have read through this thread twice now and I keep finding myself wavering back and forth on the issue.

 

It angers me that I DO edit myself to spare religious family members from the truth about my reasons for de-converting, but yet they feel no need to edit themselves about their faith. It DOES sadden me to hear they have fallen into a religious trap that I feel is limiting their happiness and potential. Why am I not given the same degree of consideration that I give them?

.....................

If my nephew were considering the armed forces I would be all over my brother and my nephew with my opinion; yet because it involves his stupid religion, I remain quiet.

IBF

I feel you, IBF. Why, indeed, do we censor ourselves? Why do we consider religion an off-limit/taboo subject? When the subject is politics or warfare, we have NO problem shouting out our opinions. But religion? "Shhhhh! Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're talking gawd!" Crazy, huh?

 

Religious people have NO problem condemning us and telling us what is "right" and "wrong". What happened? Did we somehow LOSE our right to have an opinion because we no longer believe?

[Alice]

IBF, in a case like that of your nephew, I think my 'fear' would be that I wouldn't know how the parents would respond - its because of how those with the beliefs see their beliefs rather than how I see them ...

 

My hesistency (there I go again ) in sharing my non religious views is that I remember how secular views were dismissed and how they were viewed, which was 'of the devil' I guess, by the fundamnetalist mindset. I know about it and remember it because I was one. I hate the thought of being subject to the sort of speculation and assumptions that I used to at least listen to - if not fully participate in.

 

I can see that in the long run - the more people that know and realise that leaving fundamentalist beliefs behind doesn't mean I've gone over to the dark side, wish to embrace sin, have let the devil get a foothold or whatever - the better but the process sucks, and along the way there are those who would cut off all contact as a result.

 

I will be cautious with my nephews and niece consequently - because I want to be in their lives and not barred from them by zealous mums and dads I guess.

[Japedo]

 

 

We owe it to everyone to speak the Truth. (Wouldn't YOU have preferred it if someone had shown you the escape hatch before you wasted years living in prison?) If their “faith” is strong enough (i.e. if their brainwashing is complete) then NOTHING that we say will disturb them. However, IF they possess “weak faith”, and our walking away appeals to them and gives them courage to do likewise, then so be it. That is their choice. We are doing nothing wrong. In fact, we should celebrate as does the Christian when he/she “wins” a soul to “Christ.”

 

Christians are “bold” in evangelism, so why shouldn’t WE be bold in walking free?

 

“Am I now your enemy for telling you the truth?”

 

Christians LOVE to ask that question of us. I say that it is high time we turn the tables.

 

 

Thank you Mr Grinch for such an inspiring post.