Why was it a Christian-motivated group?

[SOIL]

( This is taken from an email response - which I sent to one of our members who kindly pointed me to Amnesty International when I asked about what other organizations might be doing the type of work the IJM organization is doing. (On earlier versions of this board, some of us have been through this subject before - but I am still looking for an answer to my principle question - so I am starting this thread (again) here. )

 

....

 

Thank you for pointing me to the Amnesty International site!

 

Certainly that organization provides excellent information of the type I am interested in knowing about (for instance I am particularly interested in the information about the situation in Nepal).

 

However, so far anyway, it appears to me that Amnesty International, (like several other very good organizations) is not so involved in the key distinctive element (see 'Casework' at : this page), which has principally attracted me to the work of IJM, that - being actively involved in providing legal expertise from the U.S. while working personally alongside law enforcement and judicial indigenous people who currently occupy legitimate positions of power in governmental structures in countries where human rights abuses have been repeatedly identified - thus playing an integral role in actually providing RESCUE for some who suffer from the injustices the organization seeks to make known to any who desire to help others become rescued..

 

See Below (which I have copied from Justice through casework):

Justice through casework

 

Casework is the unique approach that International Justice Mission uses to seek justice for the oppressed around the world.

 

IJM casework consists of investigation and intervention by law enforcement and legal professionals on behalf of victims in specific cases of abuse, oppression, and injustice. The term intervene literally means "to come in between." When IJM intervenes, we use the factual information that we have gathered to persuade a legitimate authority to act on behalf of the victim.

 

Why does IJM seek justice through casework?

 

Casework leads to an accurate diagnosis of the problem.

 

Casework allows us to dissect the real power behind the oppression with specificity.

 

Casework allows us to attack the oppressor at his point of greatest weakness - his lies.

 

Casework gives us concrete intelligence about the abuse of power that can helpfully inform policy and structural solutions.

 

Casework provides concrete benchmarks for measuring good faith and promises to act by government officials.

 

Casework is hard work -- it is the work of making good laws a reality for the poor who cannot afford an advocate.

To read about IJM's Casework process, click here

 

.......

 

FAQ’s

 

I am an attorney and would like to help with the work of IJM. What can I do?

Although IJM's casework usually requires very specialized legal and investigative skill, we often encounter projects that are ideal for volunteer professional assistance. Click here to read more about volunteer and employment opportunities.

 

IJM has received pro bono assistance from law firms willing to contribute their services for casework. For more information on having your law firm partner with the IJM in casework, please email us with your contact information, the name of your firm, and the firm's areas of expertise.

 

What right do you have to enforce American standards in other countries?

IJM intervenes in cases in which the abuse or injustice complained of violates local or national laws of the country in question. The countries in which we work already have laws in effect that should protect their citizens from abuse and injustice, but these laws are often unenforced or under enforced. IJM strives to encourage all countries in which we work to create systems of internal accountability. We work in cooperation with government officials of goodwill to encourage structural accountability that is sustainable without continued external pressure. It is our objective to empower those with whom we work- NGOs, government officials, and individual citizens-- to utilize local and national systems to increase accountability and protect the citizenry from abuse or injustice.

 

Do your attorneys represent clients in court in your overseas offices and if so, what country's laws do they use?

In most of the countries in which IJM works, American attorneys cannot represent clients in court. IJM retains attorneys in those countries to advocate on behalf of the victims. IJM utilizes the country's domestic laws prohibiting the injustice to obtain relief for the victims. IJM also references relevant international norms, agreements and protocols.

 

You are a Christian ministry. Do you evangelize the victims of oppression that you assist?

Our organizational objective is to rescue victims from the hands of their oppressors by using our particular strengths (legal expertise and investigative experience). By doing so, we are demonstrating the love of Christ. We help victims regardless of their religious beliefs, ethnicity, or gender. As an organization, we do not engage in direct evangelism of the victims we assist.

 

We do make every effort to refer victims to appropriate aftercare from Christian providers, where the victim will be cared for emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

 

-Dennis

 

P.S. Sorry about that very long and complex sentence - in the course of the coming discussion I will likely need to "break it down" (so maybe even I can understand it!).

[atheist_thinker]

Here what I got from their mission statement.

 

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/aboutai-index-eng

 

Amnesty International (AI) is a worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights.

 

AI’s vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards.

 

In pursuit of this vision, AI’s mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights.

 

AI is independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion. It does not support or oppose any government or political system, nor does it support or oppose the views of the victims whose rights it seeks to protect. It is concerned solely with the impartial protection of human rights.

 

AI has a varied network of members and supporters around the world. At the latest count, there were more than 1.8 million members, supporters and subscribers in over 150 countries and territories in every region of the world. Although they come from many different backgrounds and have widely different political and religious beliefs, they are united by a determination to work for a world where everyone enjoys human rights.

 

AI is a democratic, self-governing movement. Major policy decisions are taken by an International Council made up of representatives from all national sections.

 

AI’s national sections and local volunteer groups are primarily responsible for funding the movement. No funds are sought or accepted from governments for AI’s work investigating and campaigning against human rights violations.

[Cerise]

Why exactly is your question? Why are Christians doing this? Well why wouldn't Christians be doing this? Isn't it something your religion professes to try and do (although some protest with kind of vauge references to the whole "render unto Ceaser" bit Jesus was doing)?

 

I don't think that's your question though. I don't think you really have a question, I think you wish to point and say "look at what christians are doing! Look, look! Secular groups aren't doing that! So we're better nya nya."

 

In any case, I already dealt with this kind of pointing from you. I gave you a list. Read it or don't, but there are secular groups out there working every bit as hard as your christian groups.

 

Also, what can IJM do when the law is not on their side? What can they do in a country where it is perfectly legal to stone a woman you think might be cheating on you, or burn female babies, sew their vaginas up, or use child labour? What can IJM do in a country where it is legal to sell your children in order to get food for your other children? Sell your own babies into prostitution otherwise they shall starve? What is casework going to do for these people?

[SOIL]

...

I don't think that's your question though.  I don't think you really have a question, I think you wish to point and say "look at what christians are doing!  Look, look!  Secular groups aren't doing that!  So we're better nya nya."

 

In any case, I already dealt with this kind of pointing from you.  I gave you a list.  Read it or don't, but there are secular groups out there working every bit as hard as your christian groups.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good questions (again, as usual) Cerise!

 

I don't have time to respond thoroughly to each question just now (probably I will this weekend though) - however I will at least put this link into this thread back to part of that other discussion - my earlier response.

 

-Dennis

 

P.S.

 

As far as the "... So we're better nya nya" thing - no that is not actually what I was/am trying to communicate - (I know what happened in Rwanda). What I am looking for however, is something that will motivate someone (who lives in the U.S.A) to DO SOMETHING that will actually be an integral part of a chain of events that results in one of those girls getting RESCUED. Ever since I received the news that the young girl who our family sponsored through the World Vision child sponsorship program was hanged by her father in India (after she eloped with a local boy he didn't approve of) -- I have been trying to locate a world view that is powerful enough to cause human males to have more compassion for human females. I am looking for something that has proven to motivate a person to act on behalf of someone else when injustice is causing pain (even if their lives don't normally intersect) - I think something must have happened in Gary Haugen's heart (while he was in Rwanda - I suspect).

[SOIL]

Why exactly is your question?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

I'm sorry - I was trying to post several things before 8:00A.M. - and I didn't make any of the posts very thoroughly.

 

First of all I will try to clarify what my question is - and then I will try to follow with "Why" I ask the question.

 

There are only so many words/characters allowed for the title (and subtitle) of a thread - and I was having a rough time getting my intended "title" to fit into the allowed space.

 

I want to discuss this question:

 

Why has many (if not most) of the first significant prosecutions against people who enslave others (in such places as India, Thailand, and Cambodia for instance - but other nations as well) in the small beginnings (in recent years), been associated with efforts of the (relatively small) human rights organization: IJM?

 

This organization was formed by people who claim they are motivated by Christian teachings as opposed to some secular organization, such as some of the ones you mentioned in the older thread, or Amnesty International (e.g. a very large and well known organization), which have been working in human rights related arenas for many years.

 

Perhaps the premise of my question may be incorrect - feel free (anyone who knows) to correct me - if I am wrong.

 

Here is something Gary said : back on June 6, 2002 in his testimony to the Congressional Human Rights Caucus :

....

No one disputes, least of all the State Department, that India and Thailand have massive numbers of victimizations. They have sent virtually no one to jail in the face of hundreds of thousands of sex trafficking offenses; they have pervasive corruption and participation by the government in the offenses; and they have no record of ever disciplining or punishing these officials. Yet, the State Department has publicly granted a passing grade to these countries. In doing so, the State Department is effectively reversing the intended purpose of the Act. When the State Department endorses blatantly egregious records as acceptable, one begins to wonder if it would have been better if the Congress had never passed the Act rather than empower the State Department to put the U.S. Government on record as granting a satisfactory grade to countries that actively tolerate and protect sex trafficking.

....

(I added the Bold for emphasis)

 

(I suggest folks click on this link to read the full testimony - warning: it is rather graphic in nature - there is some better news though - here is a PDF document containing Gary's testimony to the Senate during the following year.

 

..................

 

Now regarding "Why" I ask the question:

 

I (like Gary) would like to see injustice stop - and I don't think enough of us folks in this world (including me, here in the United States) - are doing as much as we should and could do to stop injustice. I want to know what it takes to motivate people to actually do something that helps RESCUE people (people who are victims of injustice and are suffering regularly). If you (anyone!) knows of motivations which appear to be helping people to help others - please let me know about them. That is one - if not the MAIN - purposes for this thread - I really want to know, and of course I am happy, since I am a Christian myself, to be able to let you folks know about what has been done, and is being done, by IJM.

 

I ask you to do your own research - and report here what you are finding!

 

(and like I say - if the claim I am making is not appropriate - feel free to tell me why you dont think so).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Why exactly is your question?

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

I'm sorry - I was trying to post several things before 8:00A.M. - and I didn't make any of the posts very thoroughly.

 

First of all I will try to clarify what my question is - and then I will try to follow with "Why" I ask the question.

 

There are only so many words/characters allowed for the title (and subtitle) of a thread - and I was having a rough time getting my intended "title" to fit into the allowed space.

 

I want to discuss this question:

 

Why has many (if not most) of the first significant prosecutions against people who enslave others (in such places as India, Thailand, and Cambodia for instance - but other nations as well) in the small beginnings (in recent years), been associated with efforts of the (relatively small) human rights organization: IJM?

 

This organization was formed by people who claim they are motivated by Christian teachings as opposed to some secular organization, such as some of the ones you mentioned in the older thread, or Amnesty International (e.g. a very large and well known organization), which have been working in human rights related arenas for many years.

 

Perhaps the premise of my question may be incorrect - feel free (anyone who knows) to correct me - if I am wrong.

 

Here is something Gary said : back on June 6, 2002 in his testimony to the Congressional Human Rights Caucus :

....

No one disputes, least of all the State Department, that India and Thailand have massive numbers of victimizations. They have sent virtually no one to jail in the face of hundreds of thousands of sex trafficking offenses; they have pervasive corruption and participation by the government in the offenses; and they have no record of ever disciplining or punishing these officials. Yet, the State Department has publicly granted a passing grade to these countries. In doing so, the State Department is effectively reversing the intended purpose of the Act. When the State Department endorses blatantly egregious records as acceptable, one begins to wonder if it would have been better if the Congress had never passed the Act rather than empower the State Department to put the U.S. Government on record as granting a satisfactory grade to countries that actively tolerate and protect sex trafficking.

....

(I added the Bold for emphasis)

 

(I suggest folks click on this link to read the full testimony - warning: it is rather graphic in nature - there is some better news though - here is a PDF document containing Gary's testimony to the Senate during the following year.

 

..................

 

Now for the WHY I ask the question:

 

I (like Gary) would like to see injustice stop - and I don't think enough of us folks in this world (including me here in the United States) - are doing as much as we should and could do to stop injustice. I want to know what it takes to motivate people to actually do something that helps RESCUE people (people who are victims of injustice and are suffering regularly). If you (anyone!) knows of motivations which appear to be helping people to help others - please let me know. That is one - if not the MAIN - purposes for this thread - I really want to know - and of course I am happy, since I am a Christian myself, to be able to let you folks know about what has been done, and is being done, by IJM.

 

 

 

I ask you to do your own research - and report here what you are finding!

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

... I gave you a list.  Read it or don't, but there are secular groups out there working every bit as hard as your christian groups.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

I have been revisiting the web sites (which I found using the names on the list you kindly provided for me).

 

Note: I am not certain if each of the websites that I found are for the same organizations which you were talking about (since some of them are for overtly Christian oriented groups).

 

Here is some of the good news!

 

Via a chain of links which I started searching, beginning from one of those organizations you listed (I'm not sure which one) - I ran into two sites which I consider to be very interesting (both, I think - are not at a high level, overtly Christian in nature) - but each site is interesting enough to me, that I am sure I will be exploring them more in the next few days (when I find the available time).

 

Here is perhaps one of the most interesting : Protection Project

 

(It looks to me as if the executive director, Dr. Mohamed Y. Mattar, may be a believer in Islam? - I notice there is the following link on the site : Faith-Based Responses

 

 

And here is a site run by the U.S. government (I think):

The Campaign to Restore Victims of Human Trafficking

 

For anyone not familiar with how the term "trafficking" is used Overview of Human Trafficking Issue

 

(I think the activities of Gary Haugen were one of the things that seemed to finally get the U.S. government more proactive in this area - but it is possible that people like Dr. Mattar may have also been involved in that capacity - I honestly am just not certain who was involved (I suspect the Spirit of God had something to do with it though - but that is just me talking).

 

I am afraid the United States has been guilty of some incredible neglect toward victims of injustice in relatively recent years (see The US and the Genocide in Rwanda 1994 - Evidence of Inaction )

 

 

I'm interested in seeing what else others can locate.

 

I appeal to anyone to please provide links, especially when (and/or if) you locate organizations which appear/claim to have beeen actively involved in cases where perpetrators actually end up in jail.

 

 

(Just before pressing the "Add Reply" button - I found on the Protection Project site (under 'Seminar Series', 'Archive of Transcripts') various resources that were covered in Seminars - and I happened to notice the very last one on that page is by one of the guys I read about in the book I have mentioned several times : Terrify No More)

 

-Dennis

[♦ nivek ♦]

Dennis..

 

I've sat here and tried to post a response to this line of thought for hours now, subject bothers me horribly.

 

My Passport is stamped with many Nations stamps, all In, even a few "not out" and unexplained to various State Department Office shits as to why.

 

I've escorted a few kids back, alive, to their parents or those they are remanded to.

 

A few have come home in boxes, bags and urns..

 

Once pretty boys and girls, taken, "sent south", or taken in custodial problems, then cast off or taken in things better left to screen writers and horror stories..

 

Not a great place to carp, save to say this, "Let everyONE be armed, that they not be taken slave".

 

If you have time and inclination to do so, read RAH's "Citizen of the Galaxy"..

 

n, who sometimes can't sleep

[Fweethawt]

I gave you a list.  Read it or don't, but there are secular groups out there working every bit as hard as your christian groups.

 

Cerice,

 

I'm going to make a comment here that is more intuitive than it is educated. However, I'm willing to bet that it would be difficult to refute.

 

I highly doubt that there are secular groups out there that are working "every bit as hard" as the christian groups. I would think that the secular struggle is much more difficult due to its lack of funding. Where you have one group that generates its funds through guilt, fear, and mental manipulation, you have the opposite group generating its funds from people who are willing to do good just to do good.

 

Okay, I'm all done now.

[Cerise]

You want to know? You really want to know what it takes? It takes pain. It takes open wounds of the eyes, open wounds of the mind, open wounds of the ears. It takes a whole lot of suffering and then it takes a whole lot of boiling, seething, steaming, screaming anger at the very thought of the allowance of such darkness taking place. And then it takes the courage to face your own darkness before you can start screaming defiance at the darkness surrounding you. And then it takes a shit load of support. Financial support. Legal support. General live bodies at your command support. Government support. National support would be nice.

 

That's what it takes to motivate people to actually do something.

 

Don't give me shit about "passive action" vs "actual action" either. I told you last time, you change minds before you change situations. It's always been that way.

 

Injustice. Don't talk to me about injustice. Don't talk to me about kids in pain. Don't talk to me about it, 'cause I know. Talk to other people who might not know. Talk to them and maybe you'll be off your ass and doing something, just like you always wanted. Do that. You do that and then you come talk to me.

[SOIL]

You want to know?  You really want to know what it takes?  It takes pain.  It takes open wounds of the eyes, open wounds of the mind, open wounds of the ears.  It takes a whole lot of suffering and then it takes a whole lot of boiling, seething, steaming, screaming anger at the very thought of the allowance of such darkness taking place.  And then it takes the courage to face your own darkness before you can start screaming defiance at the darkness surrounding you.  ...

 

That's what it takes to motivate people to actually do something.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that almost gives new meaning to the old exclamatory phrase: "good grief".

 

Somehow when reading your subscription (for how to gain the proper motivation to help people), I was thinking about God coming to earth in the person of Jesus, and enduring the crucifixion.

 

OK, well, ... if that is what it is going to take.... where do I sign up?

 

Oh wait..... I'm a Christian - I guess I already did - and how is it again, that I am supposed to "'take up your cross" ?

 

<edited in parenthetical thought:

Sorry Cerise, that last question was not directed to you, rather I was just asking God a not-so-rhetorical question.>

 

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

Don't give me shit about "passive action" vs "actual action" either.  I told you last time, you change minds before you change situations.  It's always been that way.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, if "changing minds" is so important (which I don't deny, btw), then could it be possible, one of the reasons I have been posting things about injustice, is because I am hoping to change my own mind - which evidently doesn't care all that much - given I rather doubt I can be accurately characterized as one who has exerted a massive volume of "actual action" (directed toward stopping unjust suffering)?

 

Also, perhaps I happen to think Jesus demonstrated "actual action" - by suffering unjustly himself - to provide a way so other people could avoid suffering (justly) in a way which perhaps they , would regard as unjust (in hell, for instance).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

Injustice.  Don't talk to me about injustice.  Don't talk to me about kids in pain.  Don't talk to me about it, 'cause I know.  Talk to other people who might not know.  Talk to them and maybe you'll be off your ass and doing something, just like you always wanted.  Do that.  You do that and then you come talk to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

Actually one of the reasons I do talk to you about injustice, is precisely because I know you know.

 

I don't spend my time on some Christian board talking with "people who might not know".

 

Maybe I have already done that? Maybe I have already come back, and I am now talking to you!

 

At any rate, I appreciate that you continue to "talk to me".

 

I want to really listen to you (even if it doesn't look to you as if I am).

 

Actually, one of the reasons I hang out here - is because I want to really listen - to anyone who wants to talk to us "Christians".

 

I don't always respond - and I don't have enough available time to read all posts - but when I can, I do try to listen.

 

I hope you can understand that - I think maybe some of the folks here do.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

I highly doubt that there are secular groups out there that are working "every bit as hard" as the christian groups. I would think that the secular struggle is much more difficult due to its lack of funding. Where you have one group that generates its funds through guilt, fear, and mental manipulation, you have the opposite group generating its funds from people who are willing to do good just to do good.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fweet,

 

That is a very interesting post!

 

If you are correct, about secular groups having more trouble raising funds, then what does that say about "motivation"?

 

I understand what you are saying about how "guilt, fear, and mental manipulation" have been used (IMO, not only by Christians though) to motivate people to do something (whatever that "something" might be).

 

I think God probably wants us to be motivated to help others, in part, because we are thankful given our understanding of how we (ourselves) have received help. Maybe when a person does not think they have received any help from God, in that case, that particular motivation would not be applicable.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

OK,

 

Now for even more clarification,

 

I am (in this thread) asking for people (anyone) to help me to locate organizations who do some of the "actual action" type of thing (basically implied) in the last three points found in the "Mission" page at the Protection Project website. (found by navigating through 'About Us', to 'Mission').

 

(below is close to what I am looking for: )

...

-- Developing model legislation to assist foreign countries in adopting effective legislative measures for the prevention, control and criminalization of trafficking.

 

-- Providing practical training for law and law enforcement personnel on law enforcement techniques and resource available to victims.

 

-- Collaborating with academic institutions, governmental agencies, non-governmental organizations and advocacy groups in the development and implementation of resolutions to the problem of trafficking.

However,

I am even more impressed with one of the things that IJM does (documented in the book Terrify No More) This involves sending in people (from a country such as the U.S.A) who are highly trained in the process of gathering evidence (the kind that will stand up in a court of law). I like to see the skill of specially trained law enforcement officers assisting the good folks who attempt to run the court systems in the countries where human rights laws are often being flagrantly and repeatedly broken. I want to learn about any and all organizations who actually "get personally involved" in the process of seeing that justice is done.

 

People and organizations (like IJM) - who assist local indigenous courts in successfully gaining - convictions, followed by actually putting perpetrators in jail - so they can release victims from their "bondage", and discourage any new wanna-be perpetrators who may be considering jumping into the highly lucrative Trafficking in Persons (TIP) "business".

 

Maybe I just have an inquiring mind (that really does 'want to know'), but I think it is a good exercise to find which people and organizations actually are involved in that kind of thing. If possible, I also want to know what motivates such people to risk their own "surface happiness" when they get involved, (even in circumstances where, by so doing, they know they may be putting themselves into harm's way).

 

.....

 

So, if you are willing to use some of your web-surfing time in an effort to help me locate of what I am searching for, I have found a list (you might want to start with) which features links on many organization names. The list can be found on that Protection Project site ( by following this path: "Resources, Organizations, then clicking on: International Organizations & Non-Governmental Organizations).

 

(I also plan to be looking through these organizations myself but sometimes when more eyes are involved, more substance is discovered).

 

....

 

Thanks for any help you are willing to offer me!

 

-Dennis

[Fweethawt]

I highly doubt that there are secular groups out there that are working "every bit as hard" as the christian groups. I would think that the secular struggle is much more difficult due to its lack of funding. Where you have one group that generates its funds through guilt, fear, and mental manipulation, you have the opposite group generating its funds from people who are willing to do good just to do good.

Fweet,

 

That is a very interesting post!

 

If you are correct, about secular groups having more trouble raising funds, then what does that say about "motivation"?

If the motivation wasn't there, the groups wouldn't be either. I think that you might be mistaken in associating their lower degree of effectiveness with a lack of motivation. It's not a motivational issue at all. It's the numbers. You know, the number of people involved. I'd say that they are highly motivated. It's just that there aren't that many people that are interested in something that doesn't give something back to the individual working for the cause.

 

As far as I know, secular organizations don't have a punishment and reward policy for living up to their standards. They do things for the betterment of society not just for themselves or an illusory other.

 

I understand what you are saying about how "guilt, fear, and mental manipulation" have been used (IMO, not only by Christians though) to motivate people to do something (whatever that "something" might be).

Let's not drag too much into this now.

 

I think God probably wants us to be motivated to help others, in part, because we are thankful given our understanding of how we (ourselves) have received help.

Are you still talking about the biblical God here?

 

Maybe when a person does not think they have received any help from God, in that case, that particular motivation would not be applicable.

-Dennis

Then ask yourself, if God is, which motivation would he find more pleasing and honorable, the former or the latter of the two types that you just mentioned?

 

Before you answer that question, I'll let you in on a little secret...

 

(((((you won't be able to align the correct answer with the God of the bible)))))

 

To answer a question like that, you need judgement with clarity. No religion and no bible can teach you that.

[SOIL]

...You know, the number of people involved. I'd say that they are highly motivated. It's just that there aren't that many people that are interested in something that doesn't give something back to the individual working for the cause.

 

As far as I know, secular organizations don't have a punishment and reward policy for living up to their standards. They do things for the betterment of society not just for themselves or an illusory other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fweet,

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying?

 

I am getting the impression that you are communicating something to this effect:

 

Most of the (lesser number) of people in secular groups may be thinking along these lines:

 

"What can I personally get out of helping some girl who is sold into sexual slavery who is way off in some far away country?"

- the above question weeded out most -

 

"Well, I guess nothing, but hey, I'm in this thing for the betterment of society, and that's good enough."

- the few and the proud remain -

 

- whereas -

 

One of the (many more) people in a Christian oriented group may feel like:

 

"Since God cares about that girl, and God is capable of either punishing or rewarding me (both in this physical life, and the life to come) - I will help her - and who knows? maybe I will get something in return for my trouble, plus, on judgment day, God won't be mad at me for ignoring her plight."

 

"I'm not necessarily concerned about "the betterment of society" - but basically, I remember about Jesus' story about the sheep and the goats - and both because of fear of punishment, as well as expectation of reward, I think I'll help "one of the least of these" (see Matthew 25:45-46).

 

- relatively more hang around, but for the wrong reason? -

....

 

...

Then ask yourself, if God is, which motivation would he find more pleasing and honorable, the former or the latter of the two types that you just mentioned?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you are asking which is better motivation:

 

1) Fear of God and people

or

2) Love of God and people

 

I suppose I would reply : "Yes"

 

Both are taught in the Bible (at any rate).

 

...

 

The guilt and mental manipulation stuff, are a little more tricky to deal with.

 

Guilt is something I think everyone experiences (in varying degrees) at times (not only folks who were born and raised in Christianity - because I think everyone has a conscience and we all sometimes go against it - thus producing guilt).

 

Mental manipulation is something else - some of it is certainly found in each and every religion in varying degrees.

 

I recall Jesus being quoted as saying some very rough words to the religious leaders (see Matthew 23 for instance) about some of that type of thing.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

If you have time and inclination to do so, read RAH's "Citizen of the Galaxy"..

 

n, who sometimes can't sleep

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nivek,

 

I owe you an apology - I'm sorry that I haven't responded sooner.

 

Your post kind of took me off guard.

 

I used goggle looking for that book - then I didn't think I could find the correct one based on author's name - then I finally got it through my thick head that you had given me just the initials of the author (Robert A. Heinlein - RAH).

 

If I understand you correctly, it sould like you have had some personal experience trying to help some victims like the ones I am talking about. If so I can see how that would be hard to talk about.

 

I'm not sure why I forgot about your post, but I am sorry that I did.

 

These last few days I have been enduring some major stress - and my brain seems to have been sort of fried (as you may have noticed in some of both yesterday and today's posts especially).

 

I'll check out that book though (now that I think I have located the correct one!).

 

-Dennis

 

P.S. if it is not too painful for you - I would like to hear more of what you may have to say about this whole subject - the whole thing has been bothering me big time - especially since our family was notified about the death of that girl who we were helping through World Vision's child sponsorship program for several years.

[Cerise]

Wow, that almost gives new meaning to the old exclamatory phrase: "good grief".

 

Somehow when reading your subscription (for how to gain the proper motivation to help people), I was thinking about God coming to earth in the person of Jesus, and enduring the crucifixion.

 

OK, well, ... if that is what it is going to take.... where do I sign up?

 

Oh wait..... I'm a Christian - I guess I already did - and how is it again,  that I am supposed to "'take up your cross" ?

 

<edited in parenthetical thought:

Sorry Cerise, that last question was not directed to you, rather I was just asking God a not-so-rhetorical question.>

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you know how to do it then do it. If you were looking for a hand to hold or a pat on the back, I'm not the one who can give you that, nor do I particularly wish to do so.

 

There are many different ways to help while being a motivating force. One of my friends used to work for Project Independence. She took photos from the 2002 trip to Bosnia-Herzegovina and make oil paintings out of them which we then sold and sent the proceeds off to Soroptimist International.

 

During that time, she sent me by e-mail the story of a woman she had met called Nadia. That became the inspiration for Death's Other Kingdom (Java, you will have already seen a rough copy of it I think) which will be put in a collection, hopefully available for publication by next year. These proceeds will also be sent to Soroptimist International.

 

What I do well is write. So I write. What Katie does well is paint. So she paints.

 

But you don't want to hear about this stuff, do you Dennis. You want to hear about "actual action" and commandos and lawyers and an International episode of Cops where you can see and touch and feel immediate results that involve putting bad guys away. Which is fine. But I don't find it more important then what Katie does, or what Soroptimist International does. I don't find it more important then what Amnesty International does, or Bridges for Benefits does.

 

You don't want to hear about sharing stories, you want to hear about dodging bullets. Well I never dodged a bullet, Dennis.

 

Why don't you talk to nivek instead.

[SOIL]

...

You don't want to hear about sharing stories, you want to hear about dodging bullets.  Well I never dodged a bullet, Dennis.

 

Why don't you talk to nivek instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I don't particularly personally desire to either read or write stories about such darkness, or dodge bullets, or do much of anything (other than try to convince ex-christians that there is not necessarily any more motivation to be found by going "ex").

 

Maybe I am crying out because I know I need more motivation and I want to find it?

 

The whole subject matter is something that I would prefer to just ignore (since of course as most of us fundies are supposed to know intrinsically, a good God wouldn't allow bad things like that to happen to good people anyway - is that what you think?).

 

Yes, I do want to talk with (not just "to") Nivek - maybe he is posting something right now as I am writing this response to you.

 

I want to talk to you also however.

 

I am not looking for you (or anyone else) to pat me on the back.

 

I did like what you mentioned to me earlier though - about the necessity of feeling pain - as a part of becoming motivated enough to to get off my ass and actually start helping others (I assume, either by writing and sharing stories, or dodging bullets, or getting a law degree and establishing residence where I can really help some people, or whatever).

 

Look, maybe I do want to see more real demonstrable "results" - but that does NOT mean that I think that something that you DO to try to help, is not as good as something that I DON'T DO!

 

I am sorry if I have given you that idea - that was certainly not my intent.

 

I think the number of hospitals, etc.. that have been started by Christian people - is something that ex-christians want to blow off - but a lot of good has been done in this world by people who believe in Christ - even in places where they are surrounded mostly by people who do give a damn. I don't agree with the strong atheism ideas - and I don't think history supports them. Show me a strong atheist who cares as much about the girls in Cambodia as a Gary Haugen - (and demonstrates it by his life) - and then maybe I will start spending more time learning about that subject. (sorry for this off topic paragraph).

 

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

I will look into those other organizations - maybe I can do some writing myself sometimes - (I might need to take some lessons from Reach though about how to stifle my over-editing compulsions).

 

Soroptimist International

(oops I'm not sure that one would accept an article written by me - maybe if I learn to write in soprano though?) <just kidding - don't take that the wrong way!>

 

 

I'm having trouble finding the web site for "Bridges for Benefits" though - is that the correct name?

 

And yes, maybe I could write something for Amnesty International (if I ever learn how to write, that is) - plus I guess I would need to learn something also.

 

I hope I can muster up the needed "I care" though.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

I think any good being done in the world is worth praising Dennis. I don't care if it's done by Satanists, Mormons, or people who believe that their cheese sandwiches made the world.

 

I don't think you ignore pain because you think God doesn't let it happen to good people (you know that to be a myth as well as I do). There is something, perhaps, to be said about the whole "pain = benefits" racket in a contribution to ignorance though. Those who believe that pain and suffering is a good thing are less likely to stop it when they come across it, no?

 

But more then that, people ignore pain because it's part of survival. Some people have difficulty dealing with the pain in themselves, taking on even a fraction of someone else's pain would be a gigantic struggle, let alone taking on the pain of thousands. Humans lack the equipment to care deeply, totally, and thorougly about every single person on the planet. Living so outside your own body would likely cause a mental breakdown.

 

If you are being blocked from motivation, perhaps that is a sign that you have not yet adequately dealt with your own pain. Or maybe it's a signal that you don't have focus. You can't deal with all the pain in the world. Don't try to, you shall only be discouraged.

 

It's like people who pooh-pooh the idea of saving the world and so end up doing nothing, perhaps even contributing to its destruction. You can't "save the world" it's too big. But you can do something, and perhaps you can inspire someone else to do something too. If you go around with the attitude that what you do doesn't matter because it's a drop in the ocean, then you aren't going to do it, you will be entirely too depressed to even try. And then nothing will ever get done.

 

Show me a strong atheist who cares as much about the girls in Cambodia as a Gary Haugen - (and demonstrates it by his life) - and then maybe I will start spending more time learning about that subject.

 

I don't know what your criteria is for "caring" and "demonstrating". Is it dodging bullets? Is it taking a vow of poverty? Is it wearing a hair-shirt? What does helping people have to do with Strong Atheism? What does it have to do with Christianity? Why are you passing judgement on people due to their involvement when it obviously leads to a pretty slippery slope?

 

You are a Christian Dennis, supposedly with as much faith as you can muster in God. If faith and Christianity is tied to "saving the world" can you explain why you have no motivation to do so? Can you explain why you are not Gary Haugen? And do you think it is fair to make that comparison?

[Cerise]

I will look into those other organizations - maybe I can do some writing myself sometimes - (I might need to take some lessons from Reach though about how to stifle my over-editing compulsions).

 

Soroptimist International

(oops I'm not sure that one would accept an article written by me - maybe if I learn to write in soprano though?)  <just kidding - don't take that the wrong way!>

I'm having trouble finding the web site for "Bridges for Benefits" though - is that the correct name?

 

And yes, maybe I could write something for Amnesty International (if I ever learn how to write, that is) - plus I guess I would need to learn something also.

 

I hope I can muster up the needed "I care" though.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was not suggesting you write Dennis. I was suggesting you find something you are good at that can help and then do it. Very simple, very effective way of contributing.

 

"Bridges" was a very small localized event in the Cherry Tree apartments I work at during the summer. The people living inside the complex had a Bridge tournament and tea, charged admission, and sent to proceeds off to UNICEF. I doubt seriously that it has a website. We advertised with bristal board and markers. And I found out that I really suck at Bridge.

 

In this case, every little bit does help. And every little bit can also lead to a little bit more, and a little bit more, which will eventually become a whole lot, and then a whole lot more.

 

What are you good at, Dennis? What can you do?

[Kay]

What are you good at, Dennis? What can you do?

 

Sit in front of the computer and brag about the "actual action" of his faith's organizations on the internet to ex-christians?

[zfunkman]

P.S.

 

As far as the "... So we're better nya nya" thing - no that is not actually what I was/am trying to communicate -

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But thats what your doing.