When Was Jeus Born?

[YDOAPS]

at http://www.christianityforums.com, i asked when jesus was born, presented the evidence, and got the following response:

Originally posted by bella:

christians can't even show when their savior was born or that he even existed. and their sources for determining the birth of their savior contradict each other. that isn't a turd. that is a big problem for any self-respecting christian.

Oh I beg to differ with you on this one.Christians CAN show when Jesus was born, any one with a brain can do the math.

When was Jesus born? Simple.............

Get out a pencil and take a quiz lolol PROVE THIS WRONG oh yea of little faith!

 

LUKE 1: 5-47, 56-60 NIV

5. In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah (Abia); his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly. 7. But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren; and they were both well along in years. 8. Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9. he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10. And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside. 11. Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15. for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. 16. Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." 18. Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years." 19. The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20. And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time." 21. Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple. 22. When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak. 23. When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25. "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people." 26. In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27. to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 29. Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.30. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33. and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34. "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35. The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.37. For nothing is impossible with God." 38. "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. 39. At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40. where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43. But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44. As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45. Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!" 46. And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord 47. and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, ... ... 56. Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home. 57. When it was time for Elizabeth to have her baby, she gave birth to a son. 58. Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown her great mercy, and they shared her joy. 59. On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to name him after his father Zechariah, 60. but his mother spoke up and said, "No! He is to be called John." ... ...

.

 

:groovy: Hmmmmm. Very interesting. But what does all this mean? Why did we mark the names of Zechariah and Elizabeth and John? What do they have to do with the birth of Jesus? And why were we marking the times? What is so important about marking 5 months in verse 24, and the 6th month in verses 25 and 36, and "at that time" in verse 39, and 3 months in verse 56? (You did mark those time periods, didn't you? Yes, I thought so. Great!)

 

Well, let's look at some very interesting and pertinent information and then I think you will understand why we read and marked those verses in Luke.

 

First of all, for those of us who are not Jews and are not familiar with Jewish customs, it is important to know how the Priests were assigned to their specific "tours of duty" (divisions, courses).

 

Look back at Luke 1:5. What did this tell you about Zechariah? He was a ________________ in the division (course) of ______________.

 

And, who was the King of Judah at the time? (see verse 5) ______________ .

 

Yes! Zechariah was a Priest in the division (course in KJV) of Abijah (Abia in KJV). And Herod was the King of Judah. But, why is that important?

 

Well, according to 1 Chronicles 24:7-19, there are 24 divisions (courses) of Priests, of which Abijah (Abia) is one. Each Priest, and there were many, was assigned to one of the divisions. Each division was, in turn, assigned to serve in the Temple twice a year. The "tour of duty" of these divisions would change every week with the change beginning with each Sabbath. The first course was served by the division of Jehoiarib....the eighth course to Abijah (Abia) ... and etc. as noted in 1 Chronicles 24:7,10.

 

Now, according to and quoting (and paraphrasing) from a little booklet entitled "The Real Christmas Story -- The Word Became Flesh" by C.E. McLain D. D. (printed in 1974 by Southwest Radio Church -- POBox 1144, Oklahoma City, Ok 73101):

 

"The reckoning (of the assignment for the division of Abijah) began on the 22nd of Tisri - October 6. This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles -- the great day of the feast (John 7:37), and was a Sabbath (Lev. 23:39:)

 

The first administration of the eighth course fell upon the 12-18 of Chisleu--(Dec. 6-12); whereas the second administration of the eighth course was the 12-18 of Silvan -- (June 13-19.)

 

It was during this second administration of the eighth course (of Abijah) when the announcement (by the Angel of the Lord) to Zachariah in the temple concerning the conception of John the Baptist) occurred. Therefore, this must have taken place between the 12-18 of Silvan -- June 13-19, in the year 5 BC, since we know that Herod was King of Judea at that time and we know the schedule of when Zechariah's division of Priests were assigned to Temple service.

 

Read verse 23 & 24 again. What happened when Zechariah finished his tour of service? He returned _____________ and after this his wife ______________________ and remained in seclusion for ______ months.

 

Yes, he went home and his wife, Elizabeth, became pregnant and remained in seclusion for 5 months.

 

Home? Where did Zechariah and Elizabeth live? Well, we don't know for sure but it is thought by most scholars that they lived in Juttah, which was a City in which the Levitical priesthood lived. Juttah was located about 30 miles south of Jerusalem.

 

Remember, they did not have cars in those days, so Zechariah probably walked back home, since walking or riding on a horse or donkey was the main mode of transportation in those days. Walked! 30 Miles! Wow!

 

And, since the day following the ending of his course was a Sabbath --Silvan 19, (remember, the courses began on a Sabbath and his had just ended), then he would not be able to Leave Jerusalem until the day after the Sabbath, which would be Silvan 20. Also remember that Zechariah was old (look again at verse 7 which tells us that he and Elizabeth were ______________________ . Yes, "well along in years", which to you young folks means "old!"

 

Anyway, the point is that, since he was an "old" man and was probably traveling on foot (or a slow horse or donkey), the time needed to walk or traverse the 30 miles would probably be about 2 days (though I am not so sure I could travel 30 miles by foot in 2 days and I am not really "old"... how about you?) But, assuming that it did take approximately two days, he would not arrive at home until about the evening of the 21st. Then, allowing a day of rest, the conception of John would occur on the 23rd of Silvan (June 24).

 

Now look at verses 26 and 36. When, according to these verses did the Angel appear to Mary? ____________ months AFTER Elizabeth became pregnant.

 

When Mary went to visit Elizabeth, was Mary already "with child" (carrying the Baby Jesus)? ____________

 

Yes, Mary was carrying Jesus in her womb when she went to visit Elizabeth. How do we know? What happened when Mary arrived at the home of Elizabeth and Zachariah? (Hint read v. 41-44 before you answer:)

.

_____________________________________________________________________________

.

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

Yes, John (the Baptist), who was in the womb of his mother, Elizabeth, leaped with joy when Jesus, in the womb of Mary, entered the house ! Wow! Astounding! Awesome! (And, by the way, this also is further evidence and proof that babies, while still in their mother's wombs and not yet born, are REAL babies and are not just "globs of tissue". But that is another topic for another study, so we will only make that passing comment and then continue with the subject at hand.)

 

Returning to our "calculations" of WHEN Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary -- let's summarize what we know:

 

When does it seem likely that John (the Baptist) was conceived: (circle your answer from the choices below)

 

January 1, 00

23 of Silvan (June 24, 5 BC)

February 14, 1999

And how many months AFTER John (the Baptist) did Mary go to see Elizabeth (and John)?

 

5 Months

6 Months

12 Months

 

Was Mary Pregnant with Jesus at the time she went to visit Elizabeth and John? ____________

Correct! Mary was pregnant when she went to see Elizabeth, who, at the time of Mary's arrival, was 6 months pregnant with John. Therefore, this means that the time of the visit was in the month of __________________ .

 

Yes, June + 6 Months = December !

 

Hmmm. December! And we know it was in December because Luke records that the "begetting" of the Lord Jesus was 6 months after the conception of John the Baptist (vs. 26,36). "It is, therefore, only a matter of simple calculation to arrive at the 1st of Tebeth (Dec 25), concerning the date of Christ's conception."

 

Wow! So, Jesus was not BORN on Christmas Day.... but... He was CONCEIVED on Christmas Day ! WOW !

 

And, according to verse 56, how long did Mary stay on her visit with Elizabeth? ________ Months.

 

And what happened after Mary left? (v. 57) _________________________

 

Yes, Mary (and Baby Jesus in her womb) visited for 3 months and then they left and, after they left, John (the Baptist) was born.

 

So, since John was conceived on 23rd of Sivan (June 24, 5 BC) and was born on the 7th of Nisan (March 28, 4 BC), then Jesus was conceived on Dec. 25 of 5 BC and was born on the 15th of Tisri -- Sept 29, 4 BC.

 

And, what is so special about this? Well, 2 things actually:

First, the fact that Jesus was conceived on Dec. 25 is totally awesome! We have known for a long time that Dec. 25 was actually a pagan holiday and festival long before the time of Jesus. Indeed it was the birthday of a false god , Horus (Osiris) of Egypt. For that reason, many Christians today, not knowing these details, which you have just studied, were and are reluctant to "celebrate" Jesus' Birthday, knowing that it is a pagan winter solstice holiday and the day of celebration for a false god.

But, wow, now we CAN celebrate Christmas, because we now know that Dec 25 is a very special and wonderful day; it is the day that our Lord was conceived. It is the day when the spark of His life came into the world! We know that it is the day of His conception, and at the INSTANT of His conception, He was a living viable real being (not a glob of tissue, but a REAL person) in Mary's womb! And John, in his mother's womb, and Elizabeth both recognized and responded to Jesus' viability and presence! WOW! Now that is worthy of celebrating!!

 

And, secondly, guess what! It gets even more exciting! For, Jesus' BIRTH, which occurred 9 months after Dec. 25 was on the 29th of September, the 15th of Tisri.

 

And what is so important about the 15th of Tisri?? Just this! The 15th of Tisri was the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles !!!! And the circumcision of Jesus (on the 8th day) was on the last day of the great feast of Tabernacles! WOW! Awesome!

 

Now let's read in the Gospel of John, a verse which confirms, affirms, and explains the significance of this for us:

 

John 1:14

The Word (God Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling (tabernacled) among us.

We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,

Who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

WOW !!!

Jesus was CONCEIVED on Dec. 25 of 5 BC .....

and was BORN (Tabernacled / dwelt) with us on the 29th of September (Tishri 15) 4 BC !

AWESOME !!!

:groovy:

[pandora]

Wow... that was so damn complicated I didn't even read it all. I can't believe they actually got December 25th out of it. ROFL

[Eponymic]

Wow... that was so damn complicated I didn't even read it all. I can't believe they actually got December 25th out of it. ROFL

 

What do you mean it's complicated.

 

Just take the cosine of 35, divide by 364, add two cups of brown sugar, simmer, move to Greece, call your new puppy 'Geraldo', go out to your back yard and make sure the sundial is pointing to 2:45 pm, do a rain dance, add 4, divide by 9 and you've got December 25th.

[Guest sub_zer0]

He was most likely born around April, the fact is we have no idea and 25th is merely a day to celebrate His birth.

[Antlerman]

He was most likely born around April, the fact is we have no idea and 25th is merely a day to celebrate His birth.

What year was he born, if he was at all?

 

P.S. Dec 25 is not "merely" some arbitrary day choosen. There was nothing "mearly" about it. You are aware of this, aren't you?

[YDOAPS]

http://christianityforums.com/cgi-bin/ulti...0509;p=0&r=npwm is the exact thread

[Lycorth]

He was most likely born around April, the fact is we have no idea and 25th is merely a day to celebrate His birth.

 

I used to believe much like this; when I was a child, of course I thought Jesus™ was born on December 25th. Later in life, I saw how the ancient pagan celebration of Yule as well as the birth of the god Mythra (whose cult predates Jesus™ by about 3000 years or so) were both on December 25th, and Jesus'™ birthday was never actually recorded in the Babble, or any other source. Hence, I believed that the Catholic Church™ just marked a high pagan holiday as the day to celebrate Christ's™ birth in order to help facilitate the conversion of the heathens to Xianity.

 

I believe that today, though I no longer think the Church™ was right to do so, primarily because Jesus™ is a monster and Xianity one of the greatest forms of spiritual terrorism known to man. Besides, some pagan religions had first dibs, so Xianity has no right to be stealing something that isn't theirs. What about "thou shalt not steal"?

 

Oh, that's right, Holah Mutha Church™ can break any law she makes, just like Congress

[jrmarlin]

He was most likely born around April, the fact is we have no idea and 25th is merely a day to celebrate His birth.

 

I used to believe much like this; when I was a child, of course I thought Jesus™ was born on December 25th. Later in life, I saw how the ancient pagan celebration of Yule as well as the birth of the god Mythra (whose cult predates Jesus™ by about 3000 years or so) were both on December 25th, and Jesus'™ birthday was never actually recorded in the Babble, or any other source. Hence, I believed that the Catholic Church™ just marked a high pagan holiday as the day to celebrate Christ's™ birth in order to help facilitate the conversion of the heathens to Xianity.

 

I believe that today, though I no longer think the Church™ was right to do so, primarily because Jesus™ is a monster and Xianity one of the greatest forms of spiritual terrorism known to man. Besides, some pagan religions had first dibs, so Xianity has no right to be stealing something that isn't theirs. What about "thou shalt not steal"?

 

Oh, that's right, Holah Mutha Church™ can break any law she makes, just like Congress

Actually Sub, it was August not April... And V, I like the way you delivered that last line. It's very political. I like it.

[Lycorth]

And V, I like the way you delivered that last line. It's very political. I like it.

 

Heh - thanks. I'm an amateur Medievalist, and have studied the Middle Ages off and on for maybe ten years or so. One thing I could help but notice is how the Catholic Church™ was to Europe like Congress is to America. Feels nice to really be able to say that after years of being afraid to denounce Big Momma Church™.

[jrmarlin]

And V, I like the way you delivered that last line. It's very political. I like it.

 

Heh - thanks. I'm an amateur Medievalist, and have studied the Middle Ages off and on for maybe ten years or so. One thing I could help but notice is how the Catholic Church™ was to Europe like Congress is to America. Feels nice to really be able to say that after years of being afraid to denounce Big Momma Church™.

V, did Chris de Vallie ever come back on and talk to Mr. G. I know G was waiting for him. That's a dialogue I shall not miss.

 

You seem down tonight. You are not your perk, sarcastic with a hint of disdain self - hope all is well!

[Lycorth]

V, did Chris de Vallie ever come back on and talk to Mr. G. I know G was waiting for him. That's a dialogue I shall not miss.

 

You seem down tonight. You are not your perk, sarcastic with a hint of disdain self - hope all is well!

 

Heh, I challenged the little twerp, if you recall. I am sure he hasn't the stones to face me and I'm sure he'll punk out on Grinch, too. It's his M.O. after all.

 

I'm ok - thanks for asking, though Just got off an 11 hour day and am unwinding. Give me time to warm up

[jrmarlin]

V, did Chris de Vallie ever come back on and talk to Mr. G. I know G was waiting for him. That's a dialogue I shall not miss.

 

You seem down tonight. You are not your perk, sarcastic with a hint of disdain self - hope all is well!

 

Heh, I challenged the little twerp, if you recall. I am sure he hasn't the stones to face me and I'm sure he'll punk out on Grinch, too. It's his M.O. after all.

 

I'm ok - thanks for asking, though Just got off an 11 hour day and am unwinding. Give me time to warm up

Okay, I was a little worried there. Thought the Chris jag took a lot out of your sails or something. You'll get your groove back. I am going to make another topic that should be interesting. Be on the lookout. The chick has something to say!

[Mythra]

That first post is complete joke. That fundy needs to get a life.

 

How 'bout this?

 

 

Prove when Jesus was born.

[jrmarlin]

That first post is complete joke. That fundy needs to get a life.

 

How 'bout this?

 

 

Prove when Jesus was born.

Mythra, after reading Hellium's post on timing... it really got my mind ticking. Was Jesus ever really a person or was it all just a made up tale like Neptune in the sea and Zeus? I mean the Muses (even the Xanadu, Olivia Newton-John version) seem more plausible.

 

And this Xian God. After doing that big 10 list, I was stymid as to why anyone would follow such a narcisistic creature. That is insanity solidified with saccharine sweet honey. I just don't get it?

 

Well, read my new post offering... it has my other thoughts there.

[Lycorth]

Okay, I was a little worried there. Thought the Chris jag took a lot out of your sails or something. You'll get your groove back. I am going to make another topic that should be interesting. Be on the lookout. The chick has something to say!

 

It takes way more than a punk like Chris to take anything out of my sails. I've had worse exchanges with worse people, in real life. An internet argument isn't even remotely close to what real-life stress does. But, if Chrissy takes the challenge, I'll be there.

 

That first post is complete joke. That fundy needs to get a life.

 

How 'bout this?

 

 

Prove when Jesus was born.

 

Haha, I love that And it really is more to the point...

[jrmarlin]

Okay, I was a little worried there. Thought the Chris jag took a lot out of your sails or something. You'll get your groove back. I am going to make another topic that should be interesting. Be on the lookout. The chick has something to say!

 

It takes way more than a punk like Chris to take anything out of my sails. I've had worse exchanges with worse people, in real life. An internet argument isn't even remotely close to what real-life stress does. But, if Chrissy takes the challenge, I'll be there.

 

That first post is complete joke. That fundy needs to get a life.

 

How 'bout this?

 

 

Prove when Jesus was born.

 

Haha, I love that And it really is more to the point...

I think he's disappeared -- gone to Argentina or something. Mr. G. waited a lion's share of the day and he never returned. I personally think he was reading the treads as anonymous or guest. Why? Because he's a sick twist like that.... You can just tell, he's definitely a stalker-personality.

[Mythra]

Mythra, after reading Hellium's post on timing... it really got my mind ticking. Was Jesus ever really a person or was it all just a made up tale like Neptune in the sea and Zeus?

 

I don't want to derail this thread, since it's not really about the historicity or ahistoricity of Jesus.

 

But, it's my favorite topic. We've had some pretty good threads here kicking it around.

 

(And I can assure you that no one can even remotely prove that Jesus was ever a man who walked the earth)

[Lycorth]

Because he's a sick twist like that.... You can just tell, he's definitely a stalker-personality.

 

Of course he's sick - he thinks he needs Jesus™ to be a good person.

 

And he's probably trolling the forum here anonymously. He's a coward for Christ™!

[jrmarlin]

Because he's a sick twist like that.... You can just tell, he's definitely a stalker-personality.

 

Of course he's sick - he thinks he needs Jesus™ to be a good person.

 

And he's probably trolling the forum here anonymously. He's a coward for Christ™!

One would think that a warrior of god would be a little more forthright and vigilant. I mean, does he actually believe he will sway anyone into his way of thinking when he sounds like a complete nut?

 

He needs to get Dale Carneige's How to Win Friends and Influence People. Though I think the entire book would be lost on him. It's a cinche he's not in Toastmasters. His debate and public speaking skills are for shit.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Actually Sub, it was August not April... And V, I like the way you delivered that last line. It's very political. I like it.

 

Do you have any idea what I am basing that off of? More importantly, do you have any idea what you are basing your conclusion off of?

[SkepticOfBible]

From Heimdall's Post

 

The problem with your posting (I really can’t figure when you think Jesus was born), other than it is a mish-mash of “cut and paste”, is that you are going to Christian sources that quote Christian sources from nearly a third of a millennium after the fact. If you had gone to the historic records and writing of persons that lived during that period, you would have discovered that with the Romans, censuses were conducted for purposes of taxation and In his account of the major events of his life, Augustus wrote that he conducted official censuses in 28 BCE, 8 BCE, 6 CE and 14 CE. Dio Cassius the Roman historian wrote that in 6 CE Caesar Augustus set up a fund to benefit the Roman military and had kings and certain communities contribute to it. He also made a sizable contribution and promised to do so each year. When this did not provide sufficient funds to keep the military going, he issued a worldwide decree that there would be a 5% inheritance tax on estates/inheritances, something beyond normal taxation. Such taxation would require a census to register transferable assets, such as land, and to record genealogies to establish “very near relatives” (Roman History LV 25:5-6).

 

Josephus noted the effects of this decree in Judea: “Now Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to be a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus' money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it." (Antiquities. XVIII 1:1). He further reported "a certain Galilean, whose name was Judas, prevailed with his countrymen to revolt; and said they were cowards if they would endure to pay a tax to the Romans, and would, after God, submit to mortal men as their lords." (Wars II 8:1). In Antiquities XX 5:2, he wrote of "Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews." As Josephus noted, Caesar’s 5% tax was to be on estates/inheritances of all but the poor and near relatives, not on the people.

 

The census attached to this taxation was also noted by Luke: "Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away some people after him, he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered." (Acts 5:37) This shows that Luke was speaking of the same census/taxation as Josephus, the 6 CE census/taxation conducted under Cyrenius (P. Sulpicius Quirinius).

 

A listing of the Governors of Syria from 10 BCE to 7 CE are as follows:

BCE 10-9 M. Titius

BCE 9-6 Gaius Sentius Saturninus

BCE 6-3 P. Quinctilius Varus

BCE 3-1 L. Calpurnius Piso

BCE 1-4 CE Gaius Julius Caesar

4-6 CE L. Volusius Saturninus

6-7 CE P. Sulpicius Quirinius

 

The individual that served in the period of 6 – 3 BCE, P. Quinctillus Varus has often been claimed by Christians to the the “Cyrenius” of the NT, even though Quinctillus sounds nothing like Cyrenius (Greeks were noted for at least getting close to the sound of a name) and there was not a census decreed by Caesar Augustus during that period. The ironic fact is that during the campaigns of P. Sulpicius Quirinius (the real Cyrenius), Quinctillus served as a subordinate officer under his command.

 

In order to ascertain the birth date of Jesus, several parameters must be met:

Matthew reports that the birth was during the reign of Herod the Great (died 4 BCE) and Luke reports that the birth was during the census decreed by Caesar Augustus during the tenure of Quirinius as Governor of Syria (prior to the death of Herod, Judea was not part of Syria, but instead a “patron” state) and Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist (reported by Luke to have started his mission in the “fifteenth year of Tiberius reign, which would be 28 CE and reported by Josephus as having been executed by Herod in 36 CE – which in itself is a problem). He would have been tried before Pontius Pilate and executed by his troops, according to Roman records and Josephus, Pilate served from 26 CE to 36 CE, being recalled to Rome in 36 CE. If these parameters can’t be met, then it is demonstrated that the gospels are in extreme error and will remove your claim of the value of the bible as a historical report.

 

If Jesus was born during Herod’s reign, then he would have been born prior to 2 BCE, but there was no census decreed by Caesar Augustus after 8 BCE until 6 CE, plus at that time Cyrenius was not the governor of Syria. If Jesus had been born any time prior to the death of Herod, then he would have been 30 years old and starting his ministry prior to John the Baptist and would have been crucified prior to John being executed by Herod, so clearly we can rule out Matthew as having the correct information. If Jesus had been born in the year 1 CE, he would have come to John to be baptized in 30 CE, the second year of John’s ministry. But he would have been crucified 4 years before John was executed by Herod and the gospels are very specific that John died first. If he had been born during the 6 CE census, then he would have started his ministry the same year that John was executed and would have been executed by someone other than Pontius Pilate, which can rule out Luke as a valid record of history. Hmmmm, now instead of cut and pasting, YOU tell me when Jesus was born, because your bible is nearly worthless as history! - Heimdall

 

He was most likely born around April, the fact is we have no idea and 25th is merely a day to celebrate His birth.

 

Obviously you have shame in celebrating the pagan origins of christmas, despite the fact that it is prohibited by your God.

[jrmarlin]

Actually Sub, it was August not April... And V, I like the way you delivered that last line. It's very political. I like it.

 

Do you have any idea what I am basing that off of? More importantly, do you have any idea what you are basing your conclusion off of?

Probably the bible as most die-hard fundies do. But of course, one thing you fail to realize is the bible was created long after Jesus's supposed existence. Not to mention the fact that the bible was commissioned by a King, named King James. He commissioned the bible because his public was trying to buck his power and they didn't want to follow his ridiculous laws, so he went to the church heads and asked that a bible be written in order to keep the masses in line with his rulership. He did not have the bible committed to paper as a humanitarian that wante to share the good word. Far from it. He did it because his rulership was riddled with controversy and people not respecting him. He thought it would get him some extra kudos while instilling the fear of a nebulous God and Jesus in the heart of his countrymen.

 

To think that the bible was written for any gallant or noble reasons -- much less informative historical fact, is just plain crazy. You have no historical basis for your findings.

 

Now as for August being the time period - several educators with eons of education between the group have claimed that had Jesus lived at all, the likelihood of him being born in the month of August is greater than any other time period during the year - not April. His personality traits were more liken to the astrological sign Leo than any other sign. These professors and scientists have stood by this month speculation for decades.

 

As for if he ever existed - it remains to be seen. At least, the Xian version of Jesus. Now a lot of cultures do believe that a person that is likened to Jesus's description did live and was documented in several other cultures; however, the Jesus described by the Bible is not likely to have ever been in existence.

 

If xians would read and study theology in ernst as opposed to this half-assed, read a scripture at a time bible study, they would figure some of these pertenant facts out for themselves. But of all the religions practicing on this planet, xianity is the most ill-informed and naive religion, failing to even contemplate or study any other culture/religion's belief systems and doctrines. It is sad because other religions study xianity as a part of their spiritual journey, yet xians don't. Its like a child that only gets to the 4th grade in school and decided they don't need to go any further because they can recognize certain letters and numbers. They don't realize there is a whole world of vocabulary and abstract math equations out there just waiting to test their minds and be discovered. Xians only cheat themselves when they fail to familiarize themselves with other religions of the world -- as well as other ways of thinking, analyzing and assimilating information. It makes them very narrow-minded and dogmatic to only one way of being.

 

The man that is reported to be Jesus was very widely educated in all religions. He went to several countries all over the eastern hemisphere and studied. One thing I have noticed with xians is they do not study - far from it. They rely on their minister to spoonfeed them information. To read the bible for them -- of course, putting his/her spin on the inferences within. This is short-cut living. This is not cheating anyone but the xians themselves.

 

Because there are so many theology classes and very enlightening books post the bible that add and cause one to question some of the conclusions drawn by earlier scholars. To not even investigate further is just laziness.

 

Sub, what might be a good thing you could do for your sunday school class is to start introducing other religious thoughts, like Buddism, Wicca, Druidism, Quabala, etc. You might find the study of all religions will help you and your class make more informed inferences regarding religious beliefs and practices. Perhaps it is you that could bring your church out of the dark ages of thinking things are true based on a book littered with problems and contradiction.

 

To answer your question, what am I basing my feeling regarding this subject from? Very simply put, over two decades of careful consideration and contemplation in my quest for theological study of a plethora of religions too numerous to even list here. That's the best answer I can give you without getting too overly complicated for the lazy-man to comprehend.

[Guest sub_zer0]

To answer your question, what am I basing my feeling regarding this subject from? Very simply put, over two decades of careful consideration and contemplation in my quest for theological study of a plethora of religions too numerous to even list here. That's the best answer I can give you without getting too overly complicated for the lazy-man to comprehend.

 

OK, so nothing about what the Bible actually says on the subject then, is what you are saying? Do you have a quote from Scripture backing up your statement?

[Sokudo Ningyou]

To answer your question, what am I basing my feeling regarding this subject from? Very simply put, over two decades of careful consideration and contemplation in my quest for theological study of a plethora of religions too numerous to even list here. That's the best answer I can give you without getting too overly complicated for the lazy-man to comprehend.

 

OK, so nothing about what the Bible actually says on the subject then, is what you are saying? Do you have a quote from Scripture backing up your statement?

 

 

Quoting the Bible on this subject may take awhile.

[Mythra]

OK, so nothing about what the Bible actually says on the subject then, is what you are saying? Do you have a quote from Scripture backing up your statement?

 

This reveals more about the fundy mindset than anything any of us could say.