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Our digital virtual world has a DRY codebase. 

Someone updated a variable. 

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Considering the fact that there are a lot of different translations of the Bible, it can be easy to mix up which one says what. For example, "wineskins" is used in some translations, including NIV, NASB, NRSV. However, as you've seen, the KJV says "bottles."

 

The real question is this: Why would the timeless, perfect word of an omniscient, omnipotent being need to be retranslated and retranslated over and over?

 

Edited to add: Look at the list of complete English Bibles in the link below. How in the world could mankind possibly need that many different versions of any book in any language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations#Complete_Bibles

 

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The supposed changes in the KJV are hardly at odds with what people remember as the correct wording. And why is it only the KJV? A Christian falling for a delusion would be more like believing in Joel Osteen or becoming a Mormon, not mis-remembering if it was a lion or a wolf.

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On 3/25/2017 at 1:04 PM, florduh said:

The supposed changes in the KJV are hardly at odds with what people remember as the correct wording. And why is it only the KJV? A Christian falling for a delusion would be more like believing in Joel Osteen or becoming a Mormon, not mis-remembering if it was a lion or a wolf.

[]\l;',./

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11 minutes ago, Shinobi said:

Apparently, the pastor in this video is heartbroken because of the Mandela Effect.  This video shows him breaking down and telling his congregation that the Bible has changed...  There are now many believers out there who are claiming that the Mandela Effect is the "strong delusion" that God has chosen to use to keep people from coming to know the truth in the last days (2 Thessalonians 2:11).  Rather than rejecting it as being rubbish, they have chosen to believe that the Mandela Effect is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.  What are your thoughts on this?

...

There are decades of significant scientific research concerning human memory, much of which addresses the concept of false memories, aka the Mandela Effect.

 

A more parsimonious and mundane explanation is strongly inferred in this research.  No sky fairy required.

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I do think the Mandela Effect is an important topic to research if only for the sake of keeping oneself educated and informed on current trends.

As far as I have seen, the Mandela Effect argument is simply that varying numbers of people remember a given thing to have been one way while in fact it is another. How does one argue with, "but I remember it being different!"? That's how they remember it, case closed. The flat earth argument usually first assumes (but not always) the validity of strict Bible interpretation followed by unscientific amateur observations made with the naked eye or primitive optics and "common sense" as the primary argument. There are also some science nerds who know better but exercise their skills by formulating and presenting fake "arguments" for a flat earth.

 

Knowing people who have been involved in the space program and also experience as an amateur radio operator I've seen clear evidence to dispute the flat earth claim. As radio enthusiasts we have launched our own satellites and we bounce signals off of the moon and meteor showers. We can observe propagation instances where a signal is captured at one compass point with a directional antenna but there is a weaker, delayed signal coming from the opposite direction; this is the result of the radio wave traveling the shortest and strongest path for one signal bur around the globe for the "long path" signal.

 

And besides all that.........  https://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-conspiracy-theory?bffbmain&utm_term=.gaO1xmo0E#.leqvMoB97

 

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On 3/25/2017 at 3:52 PM, florduh said:

As far as I have seen, the Mandela Effect argument is simply that varying numbers of people remember a given thing to have been one way while in fact it is another. How does one argue with, "but I remember it being different!"? That's how they remember it, case closed.

/.,';[]\

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Few people with education and reasoning skills would waste time trying to construct arguments against the Mandela Effect, Flat Earth, Alien Shape Shifters or Lord Xenu. We really can't debunk every crazy fantasy or conspiracy theory the nut jobs come up with. It's the old "playing chess with a pigeon" scenario. There's nothing to be gained by lending serious consideration to crackpot theories. If we recognize that one can't prove a negative, they win; if we still try and offer irrefutable evidence they still claim a win because we must be brainwashed.

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On 3/25/2017 at 7:37 PM, florduh said:

Few people with education and reasoning skills would waste time trying to construct arguments against the Mandela Effect, Flat Earth, Alien Shape Shifters or Lord Xenu. We really can't debunk every crazy fantasy or conspiracy theory the nut jobs come up with. It's the old "playing chess with a pigeon" scenario. There's nothing to be gained by lending serious consideration to crackpot theories. If we recognize that one can't prove a negative, they win; if we still try and offer irrefutable evidence they still claim a win because we must be brainwashed.

[]\]][';';,./.,

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You might think it's a huge waste of time to research subjects like the Mandela Effect, and that is perfectly okay.

I did research it. I also researched several other crackpot theories such as flat earth. I am just noting that I have found it rather unrewarding to mount a logical argument against those who maintain a blind faith in the ridiculous. Some people enjoy arguing with lunatics, and that's fine. I just don't expect such arguments to change any minds, that's all. No insult intended to those who wish to pursue debates with people who believe weird shit. Hell, I used to do it.

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On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:10 AM, Shinobi said:

I'm very much inclined to agree with you, florduh.  However, this social phenomenon is spreading like wildfire.  It's not just a few people who believe it's true - it's more like hundreds of thousands.  The only reason I chose to post this topic is because it is very quickly becoming a topic of interest in mainstream Christianity.  Chances are, you and others who use this website will eventually run into someone out there who is totally convinced that all of it is true.  So, in my humble opinion, it is definitely a topic that is worth getting acquainted with.

 

It should be noted that people who are inclined to believe that which is not demonstrably true, are more inclined to believe anything that is not demonstrably true.

 

So for example, if a Christian is inclined to believe in God with no evidence, they may also be inclined to think the moon landing was a hoax, and that evolution is a multi century, multi discipline conspiracy to destroy god - somewhat an oxymoronic statement in itself. So apparently believing in weird shit means you are more inclined to believe in other weird shit.

 

I think what we are actually seeing, is a Chinese whispers phenomenon. Someone has quoted something wrong, it has been repeated, put into songs, burnt into church memory and no one has bothered actually reading the actual words. Now they have they think its been changed - no they just didn't bother checking.

 

Take the NT - 'prophesises' are quote mined by the authors. Christian preachers have then repeated theses for millennia without bothering to actually check said prophesies. The prime one is "a virgin shall conceive" from Isiah. It has nothing to do with a coming messiah. To get around this the "dual and hidden meaning of scripture" excuse is given. Again, more post hoc shit.

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On 3/26/2017 at 3:27 PM, florduh said:

I did research it. I also researched several other crackpot theories such as flat earth. I am just noting that I have found it rather unrewarding to mount a logical argument against those who maintain a blind faith in the ridiculous. Some people enjoy arguing with lunatics, and that's fine. I just don't expect such arguments to change any minds, that's all. No insult intended to those who wish to pursue debates with people who believe weird shit. Hell, I used to do it.

/.,./';';[]\][

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On 3/26/2017 at 8:07 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

It should be noted that people who are inclined to believe that which is not demonstrably true, are more inclined to believe anything that is not demonstrably true.

 

So for example, if a Christian is inclined to believe in God with no evidence, they may also be inclined to think the moon landing was a hoax, and that evolution is a multi century, multi discipline conspiracy to destroy god - somewhat an oxymoronic statement in itself. So apparently believing in weird shit means you are more inclined to believe in other weird shit.

 

I think what we are actually seeing, is a Chinese whispers phenomenon. Someone has quoted something wrong, it has been repeated, put into songs, burnt into church memory and no one has bothered actually reading the actual words. Now they have they think its been changed - no they just didn't bother checking.

 

Take the NT - 'prophesises' are quote mined by the authors. Christian preachers have then repeated theses for millennia without bothering to actually check said prophesies. The prime one is "a virgin shall conceive" from Isiah. It has nothing to do with a coming messiah. To get around this the "dual and hidden meaning of scripture" excuse is given. Again, more post hoc shit.

;';'/.,./.,[]\][][]\]

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On 3/24/2017 at 2:40 AM, Shinobi said:

I'm not sure if this is where I should be posting this bizarre topic...  I apologize in advance if the subject matter in this post doesn't belong here.  My reasons for choosing this section of the forums is because the topic in question threatens to turn all of Christian theology on its head.

 

So, I'm sure some of you might have heard of this curious thing called the Mandela Effect.  For those of you who haven't, I'll give you a brief run down.

 

The Mandela effect is basically a strange phenomenon in which people report that things in the world around them have mysteriously changed from what they remember them being in the past.  Popular examples include scenes in old movies, spellings of popular products, geographic locations of various regions, land masses, cities, etc., lyrics to songs, human anatomy, and the list goes on and on.  Sounds pretty crazy, right?  If you want to learn more, there are about a thousand YouTube videos currently posted that cover the subject.  I recommend the Esoteric Detective's YouTube channel.

 

Anyway, I am normally very skeptical when it comes to claims like these, but there is one particular Mandela effect that I haven't been able to explain away very effectively. It is the fact that it appears as if various verses in the King James version (and only the King James version) of the Bible have mysteriously been hanged...  I imagine that some of you are laughing at me right now, and I honestly don't blame you one bit.  I would be inclined to do the same thing.  However, bear with me, and take a look at the following list I've put together.  

 

1. Job 19:23 "Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!"  - I don't think that printing or books existed during the time that Job was written.

 

2. Exodus 34:19 "All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male."  Ummm... was matrix a word that was commonly used in the 1600s?

 

3. I Samuel 25:13 "And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff."  Does it seem odd that the two hundred men abode by the "stuff?"  I seem to remember the KJV being a bit more specific than this.

 

4. I Samuel 30:24 "For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike."  Once again, the word, stuff, seems strangely out of place...

 

5. Ezekiel 12:4 "Then shalt thou bring forth thy stuff by day in their sight, as stuff for removing: and thou shalt go forth at even in their sight, as they that go forth into captivity."  The word, stuff, in this verse doesn't even make sense.  There are many other instances of this word, but I'll let you do your own research.

 

6. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."  I don't remember the baby Jesus being referred to as a "holy thing."  Do you?

 

7. Mark 13:10 " And the gospel must first be published among all nations."  Wasn't the gospel supposed to be preached as opposed to published???

 

8. Matthew 9:17 "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."  Ummm....  Wasn't it wineskins? For starters, this parable doesn't make a bit of sense when the word, bottles, is used in place of wine skins.  Bottles don't expand, but wine skins do.  Do I need to explain myself?

 

9. Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."  Am I crazy, or didn't this verse originally say the lion shall lay down with the lamb, not the wolf?

 

10. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."  I always remember this verse saying, heavens (plural) as opposed to heaven.

 

11: Mathew 27:9 "“Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;”  Ummmm.... Since when was the prophet, Jeremiah, called Jeremy???

 

There are many other verses that appear to be different from what I remember them being as well, but I think I have posted enough here to make my point.

 

I'm really hoping that someone will take a serious look into this.  I'm not quite sure what to make of it.  If these are not changes, then I have to conclude that the translators of the original King James version Bible were not very good at their job (which is very possible).  If they are changes, it makes me wonder if time travelers from the future went back to the 1600s and messed up he Bible on purpose to send a message to us in the here and now that none of it is true.  Maybe they are trying to avert world war 3 or something?  Who knows?  All the same, I don't care how skeptical you are about weird phenomena this has got to strike you as being pretty strange.

 

One last thing... There have actually been reports of preachers breaking down and crying in front of their congregations because the Bible has somehow mysteriously changed.  I think some of them have even been recorded doing so on video.  So much for the notion that "God's word never changes" right?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this!  I hope you enjoy researching it. :)  

 

 

Well, that's an interesting thought that you don't hear everyday! 

 

I'd like to see a serious examination myself. This is a different sort of general theological issue than what we usually discuss here. But conspiracy theories and speculation about theological issues seems fair game. 

 

First of all the KJV is hugely errant. There's many mistranslated ideas in that version. The end of the world, for instance, being the end of an Aeon or simply a world age. The way that the tetragrammaton is translated as Lord, Lord of Hosts, and generically, disguises the old polytheistic influence where various gods are being referenced but interpreted in the middle ages as referring to one single as many different names all along. So they present it as monotheistic sounding in English as possible. In shorts, there's tons wrong with the KJV which can explain why it's different than other translations, including the 21st century attempt to correct errant content. 

 

I think that also speaks to the verses that don't seem to make much sense, where the wording doesn't seem to make much sense. We can consider what a logical explanation may be. Mistranslating ancient writings either accidentally or purposely seems like the simplest explanation at first glance, which others have sought to correct. I wonder if that's good enough to explain some of your examples? 

 

Quote

10. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."  I always remember this verse saying, heavens (plural) as opposed to heaven.

 


 

11: Mathew 27:9 "“Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;”  Ummmm.... Since when was the prophet, Jeremiah, called Jeremy???

 

 

In both cases I checked your KJV quotes on Gateway and cross checked them against multiple other translations of the bible. You quoted them correctly and they do seem to only appear that way in the KJV. They're different in the 21 century KJV. It is Jeremiah in every other translation I checked. But rather than posit time travel, I still think we ought to first consider the possibility that the verses seem different to you because your memory is more of a consensus type of memory instead of one strictly based on only the KJV.

 

For instance, when people speak in public and say biblical things you'll often hear them voice out things like, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."

 

So even if you only read the KJV all of your life and never read a different translation of the bible, it seems almost certain that you would have at least taken in the sentence of god creating the heavens and earth some where, from someone or several people at some point in your life. There's good cause to assume that you've heard or read it as "Heavens" and are surprised at the KJV when you literally read it as Heaven in the singular sense in the KJV. 

 

I was all around surprised when I decided to go and reread the bible. Most of what I had thought of and remembered as "The Bible" while growing up in christian school with bible class for 12 years, wasn't the bible as much as it was people's commentary about the bible. And I realized right away that I didn't really know too much about the bible even having taken 12 years of bible class, mandatory. There's definitely an issue going on where people can be shocked at what is actually written compared to what they think or remember was written. This is as logical an explanation as I have at the moment.

 

But I'm going to follow your youtube request and look into it more and let you know what I come up with...

 

  

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Hell, half of what most people think is from the Bible turns out to be Shakespeare. That aside, humans are not known for their great memory, and I agree that most people know their Bible verses by hearsay, not actually reading it themselves.

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On 3/27/2017 at 5:49 PM, Joshpantera said:

I was all around surprised when I decided to go and reread the bible. Most of what I had thought of and remembered as "The Bible" while growing up in christian school with bible class for 12 years, wasn't the bible as much as it was people's commentary about the bible. And I realized right away that I didn't really know too much about the bible even having taken 12 years of bible class, mandatory. There's definitely an issue going on where people can be shocked at what is actually written compared to what they think or remember was written. This is as logical an explanation as I have at the moment.

 

But I'm going to follow your youtube request and look into it more and let you know what I come up with...

 

  

;';';./,,..,

 

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So I've watched several videos on Esoteric's Detective's channel. It's interesting to consider all of the evidence from the secular world against these KJV issues. The logical answer seems to stay the same. These could be cases of remembering wrong. The weird part is where some historical texts remain as people remembered but others clearly show something different. The only logical answer I have at the moment is that the old articles, biblical commentary books, and awards ceremony statements reflect the same general mis remembering. But I don't know if that really settles each case. 

 

More later...

 

 

 

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On 3/28/2017 at 4:05 PM, Joshpantera said:

So I've watched several videos on Esoteric's Detective's channel. It's interesting to consider all of the evidence from the secular world against these KJV issues. The logical answer seems to stay the same. These could be cases of remembering wrong. The weird part is where some historical texts remain as people remembered but others clearly show something different. The only logical answer I have at the moment is that the old articles, biblical commentary books, and awards ceremony statements reflect the same general mis remembering. But I don't know if that really settles each case. 

 

More later...

 

 

 

\\\]]][[''';;..,,/

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