New Here

[spamandham]

My friends probably would try to get me away from RPGs. The more and more I research, the closer to becoming an agnostic I become.

 

This is the point you need to decide whether faith or the seeking of truth are more important to you. If you proceed, you are likely to become a flat out atheist in short order, as you are clearly being exposed to thoughts you have never seen before and have a willingness to consider them. I've seen this happen dozens of times.

 

I'm sorry, but again I'm out of time.... I need to go to the other forum real quick, post, and get to bed. I'll come back here tomorrow hopefully (my parents will probbaly want me to go to church though... they don't know about my recent "discoveries")

 

I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?

[Lycorth]

I also feel for you - when I was a young fundy sucker, I didn't give up RPGs wholly, just gave up using magic. That really hurts most RPGs, and really didn't make Final Fantasy I any more fun than before. To think, I thought I was offending some god by pretending I was using magic in a video game!

 

It's nice to be normal, again. My party just wasn't the same without the three Mages

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Okay, I'm in school now, I have a little time...

 

This is the point you need to decide whether faith or the seeking of truth are more important to you. If you proceed, you are likely to become a flat out atheist in short order, as you are clearly being exposed to thoughts you have never seen before and have a willingness to consider them. I've seen this happen dozens of times.

I have faith... in truth. I seek truth because I have faith that through truth I will find myself and my own life, not just the life Christianity claims to have given me. I put truth first. Faith can sometimes be opposite of truth.

 

I'm guessing you're about 16 or so?

Yup, 16

 

I also feel for you - when I was a young fundy sucker, I didn't give up RPGs wholly, just gave up using magic. That really hurts most RPGs, and really didn't make Final Fantasy I any more fun than before. To think, I thought I was offending some god by pretending I was using magic in a video game!

 

It's nice to be normal, again. My party just wasn't the same without the three Mages

Lol, I hear that. The mage has always been my favorite ever since reading about Raistlin in the Dragonlance Series

 

oh, and the guy who says that the two geneologies are from Joseph and Mary is just wrong...if you read the passages they clearly BOTH trace Jesus through Joseph

I still need to look into that deeper...

 

ok, ok, ok... i just started reading your thread on the other site, and i had to get back in here...

 

 

first off, your OP on the site is fantastic. i'm going to quote it here, in case some other people don't venture over there...

Thanks I needed the encouragement. At this point, I'm all alone. I haven't recieved any encouragement, quite the opposite. It's appreciated greatly.

 

These are fantastic questions! I felt the exact same way, but never had the courage to ask them outloud, and certainly not on a message board. You are already doing one of the hardest parts in all of this, taking an objective look at everything you have learned. Keep questioning, keep researching, keep doing everything you are doing. One of the most interesting parts to all of this? There really isn't a right answer. Just like Taph said, its your own journey. Just look around here... you'll find people like yourself, christians, theists, agnostics, atheists, and EVERYTHING in between... everyone on their own journey and their own resolution and their own answer for their spiritual questions... For anyone to say there is one answer, one solution is just silly. There is absoutley no way to know! And there are definitely, absolutely, NO absolutes... ok, wait, i guess that's kind of an absolute... um... well, that's the only absolute then, that there are no other absolutes...

 

Anyway... I started reading some of the replies (ok, i only got through 2 or 3) on the other thread and was really disheartened. For you to be looking for help and for people to be telling you to "stop thinking" and tossing out some quotes is not what you are searching for. I guess that's the double edged sword in all of this, someone can't really tell you your path, you'll find it on your own. jrmarlin has some great matrix quotes that fit amazingly well into how you are feelilng and how you will find your own path.

 

So with your questions about some of the other religions, about mormonism, go read, and search for yourself. Go read about theism, buddism, mormonism, islam, anything and everything. Lately I've been reading some of the Book of Mormon and the Quran just to get some insight into other belief systems... there's a couple good online resources that have annotated versions... here's the one i've been using:

 

Book of Mormon

Quran

 

 

Ok, i'm going to try and read some more of the replies from your other post...

Lol, thanks again! I'm so glad I'm not alone. I actually do have a Book of Mormon, two actually. The newer one and a sixties version (I bought the old one to do comparisions between the versions). I don't have a Quaran, looking for one though.

 

I have been at it on that forum for a good week or two now. I'm sure eventually I'll end up taking my case to my church. Lol... I'm a fighter (ironic considering the above), if I'm going into agnoticism/athiesism, I'm going to present my case to my family and church. I'm not afraid to do this. You see, my parents are divorced, and when I decided to live with my dad, I was the one that had to go to my mom and stepfather and tell them of my decision. To me, this is kinda the same thing... just on a bigger scale. Lol, maybe it's not me being brave... it could be stupidity =P

 

Hi Dra and Welcome

 

You are asking good questions and i wish i had done the same when i was your age. I thought them .. but didn't discuss them so they became deep internal issues for me alone and that was not healthy in anyway shape or form. I didn't have the internet of course.. !

 

The posts on the Christian forum are interesting. The idea that you just need to have faith was one idea that I could never come to terms with and the more i tried to have faith the worse it got. Faith is backing off and just believing - this is what you are being told by the Christians.

 

I think the Christians have a point .. If you can find it inside yourself to truly believe in a loving higher being who you have a one to one relationship with and are able to ignore anything your mind or anyone elses mind says then you will probably feel great! I have heard non believers say that they wish they could have faith like that - something to believe in. That the believer can often seem to have a better life because of this absolute faith / belief.

 

But it still doesn't answer your question. Is it true!? And for this type of question they (or anyone else) have no answer.

 

The fact that you are not afraid to question (ie not afraid of hell or damnation etc) is a good thing, that can be a major hurdle for some people. You can now start your journey in comfort! Good luck

Thanks again for the encouragement, again it's rare. Like you said, it's inside yourself. If you are happy in Christianity, then by all means, go ahead (assuming you don't mind living a potential lie). But for me, I have a problem with lies, I prefer truth. I find happiness living according to truth, and I want to help other people find that truth as well... whatever it may be.

 

It's time for me to take my leave... the bell to go home i about to ring.

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[spamandham]

I have faith... in truth. I seek truth because I have faith that through truth I will find myself and my own life, not just the life Christianity claims to have given me. I put truth first. Faith can sometimes be opposite of truth.

 

Excellent then. Welcome to freethought! Whether you realize it or not, you have already thrown off your shackels. You have an inquistitive mind that has not really been effectively programmed. Whoever indoctrinated you failed to emphasize the importance of blind belief (aka faith) over all else.

 

I look forward to your deconversion story in the near future.

[Kuroikaze]

I saw a post on the other forum that particularly ticked me off and thought I'd add some commentary.

 

No offense, but I can tell that regardless of what we say, it would be a waste of time. And time is too precious for some of us. After all, some of us have families and work to tend.

 

translation: we don't have time for non-believer

 

If we were to now answer your questions about all the bible contradictions, it would be a matter of short time before you come up with more doubts about something else. (especially if you are allowing yourself to become influenced by other people)

 

influence by other people? hmmm....isn't THIS guy trying to influence you too? If so all he means is to say that you should only let yourself be influenced by him....

 

For instance, you have ignored the development of today's prophecies and passed it off as being coincidence.

 

and he has ignored all the prophcies that failed. You know this is what I always find funny about the prophecy arguement. If some randome guy makes 100 different prophecies what are the chances that a few of them will come true? But all he has done is play the odds, the fact that two or three come true doesn't mean that the guy is a prophet. Unless one can prove that most of the prophecies came true...and did so completly, then I don't see how they can claim that this argument works.

 

Its the same thing with prayer, you mentioned the 35 dollars you prayed for on the other site, on the other hand, how many times did you pray for something and nothing happened. If your like me chances are you don't even remember, as a christian I tended to minimalize those events while only looking at the times when the prayer was "answered" again if you pray for 100 things, chances are that some will happen just by coincidence. Now if like 60% of them were answered, you might have something, but that certainly never happened to me.

 

You have also chosen to see the geneologies of Jesus as a contradiction, despite the fact you already knew the explanation ahead of time. It means that you don't accept it. And if you don't accept something like that, then it probably means you won't accept anything else.

 

This is the problem with apologetics. You ask a question, and when an answer is given you are supposed to just accept it, even if it doesn't work very well. If you say, that explanation doesn't work, we need to look at this again, then you are branded a trouble maker. before I deconverted I was kicked out of a ministry for asking to many questions, so I know what thats like.

 

This whole statement is a bit loaded in my opinion. he is mad that you don't accept his explanations, but misses the point. You don't reject the explanations just to be a punk, but because the explanation doesn't make sense.

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Excellent then. Welcome to freethought! Whether you realize it or not, you have already thrown off your shackels. You have an inquistitive mind that has not really been effectively programmed. Whoever indoctrinated you failed to emphasize the importance of blind belief (aka faith) over all else.

 

I look forward to your deconversion story in the near future.

Yeah... you know, I never thought I would become what I am now. This is so hard! I'm glad this site is here... It's just hard to come to it without being noticed by family and friends.

 

I saw a post on the other forum that particularly ticked me off and thought I'd add some commentary.

Yeah... I have a lot of respect for the people on that forum. I've been there for a year and half. But some of the things they are saying is just... so... infuriating.

 

translation: we don't have time for non-believer

Precisely. But, as you can see... I'm somewhat soft and din't voice my mind on it.

 

influence by other people? hmmm....isn't THIS guy trying to influence you too? If so all he means is to say that you should only let yourself be influenced by him....

Exactly!

 

and he has ignored all the prophcies that failed. You know this is what I always find funny about the prophecy arguement. If some randome guy makes 100 different prophecies what are the chances that a few of them will come true? But all he has done is play the odds, the fact that two or three come true doesn't mean that the guy is a prophet. Unless one can prove that most of the prophecies came true...and did so completly, then I don't see how they can claim that this argument works.

 

Its the same thing with prayer, you mentioned the 35 dollars you prayed for on the other site, on the other hand, how many times did you pray for something and nothing happened. If your like me chances are you don't even remember, as a christian I tended to minimalize those events while only looking at the times when the prayer was "answered" again if you pray for 100 things, chances are that some will happen just by coincidence. Now if like 60% of them were answered, you might have something, but that certainly never happened to me.

To me it's ironic how they consider us the blind ones, when they are the ones who are ignoring all the evidence. Very irritating.

 

This is the problem with apologetics. You ask a question, and when an answer is given you are supposed to just accept it, even if it doesn't work very well. If you say, that explanation doesn't work, we need to look at this again, then you are branded a trouble maker. before I deconverted I was kicked out of a ministry for asking to many questions, so I know what thats like.

 

This whole statement is a bit loaded in my opinion. he is mad that you don't accept his explanations, but misses the point. You don't reject the explanations just to be a punk, but because the explanation doesn't make sense.

Yes, and I don't know how to make them understand this. If I say something, they will probably think it to be rude.

 

And, like you said, expect that testimony soon...

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[Taphophilia]

Hi Dra,

 

I have to say that I am very impressed that you are 16 years old and have decided to think for yourself. You seem so much more mature than most 16 year olds.

 

A lot of us didn't even question Christianity until much later in life. You have the whole world ahead of you without the mind viris of Christianity to plague your life.

 

Congratulations!

 

Taph

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Hi Dra,

 

I have to say that I am very impressed that you are 16 years old and have decided to think for yourself. You seem so much more mature than most 16 year olds.

 

A lot of us didn't even question Christianity until much later in life. You have the whole world ahead of you without the mind viris of Christianity to plague your life.

 

Congratulations!

 

Taph

Thanks I can't say I'm enjoying this though... lol...

 

Although I must admit, the Christians are giving good answers.

[spamandham]

Although I must admit, the Christians are giving good answers.

 

Unlikely. They only seem good because you are at an early stage of becoming informed. But don't take my word for it. Every answer they give has an even better refutation somewhere online. This site, internet infidels, and positive atheism combined can kick the snot out of any pro-christian propoganda I've ever seen.

 

Does the idea of eternal torture in hell really fit with the idea of a loving father? There is no way to resolve this dilema sensibly. Free will does not resolve it. "God's secret plan" does not resolve it, and neither do any of the other incredibly lame excuses piled up. This single issue is enough to realize Christianity is bullshit.

 

But it gets worse. Now try to explain how Jesus' death counts as a sacrifice considering he (allegedly) was executed with cause, whether the reasons were trumped up or not is irrelevent. This was simply a case of murder at best, not sacrifice.

 

Then explain why a loving and just god would even require a third party human sacrifice, even if he himself is that human, or animal sacrifice for that matter. It makes no fucking sense and there's no way to sensibly resolve it unless you understand the polytheistic societies in which the whole sacrifice crap originated. You end up with the same bullshit type explanations as when they try to hand wave hell away.

 

Next, let's explain the "fall" of Adam and Eve. Supposedly creation was perfect until they sinned, and that's why people age and die, why animals eat eachother etc. Why does the serpent's temptation not also count as sin!!? If you or I intentionally tried to persuade someone to "sin", that attempt is itself a "sin". So we were all screwed regardless of what Adam and Eve did if "sin" caused the corruption of creation. You are unlikely to get any response at all if you ask this question as very few Christians have ever considered it. I've posed it on a couple of forums and the silence was deafening.

[Dra_Mucd_Uha]

Unlikely. They only seem good because you are at an early stage of becoming informed. But don't take my word for it. Every answer they give has an even better refutation somewhere online. This site, internet infidels, and positive atheism combined can kick the snot out of any pro-christian propoganda I've ever seen.

 

Does the idea of eternal torture in hell really fit with the idea of a loving father? There is no way to resolve this dilema sensibly. Free will does not resolve it. "God's secret plan" does not resolve it, and neither do any of the other incredibly lame excuses piled up. This single issue is enough to realize Christianity is bullshit.

 

But it gets worse. Now try to explain how Jesus' death counts as a sacrifice considering he (allegedly) was executed with cause, whether the reasons were trumped up or not is irrelevent. This was simply a case of murder at best, not sacrifice.

 

Then explain why a loving and just god would even require a third party human sacrifice, even if he himself is that human, or animal sacrifice for that matter. It makes no fucking sense and there's no way to sensibly resolve it unless you understand the polytheistic societies in which the whole sacrifice crap originated. You end up with the same bullshit type explanations as when they try to hand wave hell away.

 

Next, let's explain the "fall" of Adam and Eve. Supposedly creation was perfect until they sinned, and that's why people age and die, why animals eat eachother etc. Why does the serpent's temptation not also count as sin!!? If you or I intentionally tried to persuade someone to "sin", that attempt is itself a "sin". So we were all screwed regardless of what Adam and Eve did if "sin" caused the corruption of creation. You are unlikely to get any response at all if you ask this question as very few Christians have ever considered it. I've posed it on a couple of forums and the silence was deafening.

lol. Yeah I never thought of that one. This is... amazing. Being a Christian for all my life and I've learned more about it in the last week than I normally would have in a month (or more?) of being christian. It's a lot different when you look at it from the outisde, something I'm just now trying (I thank everyone for their patience with me...).

 

As a Christian, I wouldn't be able to explain any of the things you have said. Not without a lot of research that would probably only end up providing a very vague, abstract answer, if one at all.

 

Thanks

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

[Kuroikaze]

 

lol. Yeah I never thought of that one. This is... amazing. Being a Christian for all my life and I've learned more about it in the last week than I normally would have in a month (or more?) of being christian. It's a lot different when you look at it from the outisde, something I'm just now trying (I thank everyone for their patience with me...).

 

As a Christian, I wouldn't be able to explain any of the things you have said. Not without a lot of research that would probably only end up providing a very vague, abstract answer, if one at all.

 

Thanks

 

-Dra Mucd Uha

 

 

ha, yeah I was a religion major in college so I spent years trying to come up with apologetic answers for the contradictions I was seeing. Even to the point of taking greek to read the NT in the original launguage. I spent like 4 years of college studding this stuff and reading the bible everday, praying everyday, reading every book on theology I could get my hands on...and at the end I had to admit that for every contradiction I thought I could answer there were ten I couldn't figure out. Most of the explanations I came up with or read about, were in the end kinda vague and abstract, and generally would only partially answer the problem.

 

Like the problem of Jesus' geneologies, people say one is Mary and the other Joseph, not what the passage said, but even ignoring that, how does one deal with the problem that Joseph wasn't REALLY Jesus father, so saying Jesus was part of Davids lineage by tracing through Joseph doesn't even make sense.

 

A lot of appologetics answers look good until you dig deep into them. One thing I would suggest is reading up on logic, here is a good page on that.

 

http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/index.htm

 

note the sections on logical fallacies, after studding that, I find myself often noting when people make a claim that something is true, that often thier argument is full of fallacies. apologetcs is often full of them.

[gliph]

Hi Dra -

 

How are things going? I checked out your posting on the other site, you've got 13 pages of posts running there...

 

I kinda skipped around, but I thought it was interesting that you've got the mix of all different christians in there, some that seem honestly trying to help, some throwing bible verses, and at least one saying god talks to her everyday.

 

 

Keep us in the loop, or drop me a pm if you want to talk more. You gotta give the dark side a chance too!!! j/k...

[Antlerman]

Greetings Dra,

 

I haven't had time to catch up on everyone's posts here but quick wanted to make a post. I read the first two posts you linked to on the other site and the 2nd poster really stood out to me as I am an ex-pentecostal and I wished to point a couple things about what he said. Hopefully it will have some benefit to you, if you don't already see these things yourself:

Hello Randall

 

Why are other religions and theries and beliefs wrong, because theres one Truth and that is Jesus.

I get doubts once in a while, its the devil using his only weapon deciet anfd lies.

And I tell those doubts to go in Jesus name and get back to worshipping and serving and just being in love with God.

I never ever doubt in my heart though, the devil sometimes will try to plant doubts in my mind, which is why we should clothe ourselves in the armour of God to protect ourselves from the arrows of the devil.

 

Do you have a personal relationship with God, if so how can you possibly doubt that?

What seperates chrisianty from evety other 'truth' is Love, is Jesus, is relationship with God, its what its all about.

 

Something else though is the bible says we must assure ourselves of salvation, we must speak Gods word to our mind, soul and body.

Because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

If all this research is causing you to doubt, stop now and get back to that place with God where you should be.

You must stand strong in Gods word, and His promises to you.

 

Your brother in Christ

Jonathan

In a nutshell, this is a brainwashing technique that he is using on himself that has been taught to him by those who don't want to loose membership in their churches. He is making some artificial distinction between his heart and his mind. If he doubts in his mind, he is doing so for a reason. If he "knew" in his heart, then no amount of rational thought is going to cause doubt. Calling the source of that doubt some evil, malevolent dark spirit out to pull you into the flaming torture of God's eternal mercilessness, is a power tool to keep you from allowing your intelligence you use for everything else, to help you resolve this conflict too. It is a fear tactic meant to kill any challenges to the church doctrine. I my opinion that defines what is evil.

 

Telling you to stop looking at things that challenge preconceived ideas is intellectual suicide, or encourage others to do this is assisted intellectual suicide, or to teach others how to do this, is intellectual murder. Our minds are not our enemy. We use them for self preservation. How is it that when it comes to these teaching, if our mind finds fault with it, that we thinks it's against us?

 

I went through a Pentecostal bible college on my way into the ministry, and I practiced this bullshit Jonathan is buying. As I learned more of the Bible and church teachings, it become something that mere forced self programming could not suppress. Finally I made the fatal mistake of telling myself, "If this is the truth of God, then it will stand up to be examined head on, and as a result my faith will be solid and I can go forth making converts with truth as my light. But if not, then I am compelled to be true to myself and honest with others, and not try to persuade them to these teachings that I am plagued with unavoidable questions about their validity." I believed in my heart to look at these things honestly would not be a sin against God, but an act of honor to the faith.

 

So... here I am, and Jonathan is correct; if you don't want to have your faith challenged, or find answers other than what you have now, then the techniques described will work - but he should have added, do not study the Bible, or Church history, or other beliefs. Just stay tight to the teachings of the cult. Avoid as much exposure to non-Christian culuture or other ideas as possible. Read only Christian authors, see only Christian movies, listen only to Christian music, belive only Christian news. Shelter yourself as much as possible from other ideas, and drive out any thoughts or doubts that do not agree fully with the teachings of the Bible as they read it and teach you how to understand it.

 

I sense a genuine and open heart in you. I sincerly wish you well, and you are more than welcome here with us. I hope we can be an encouragement to you.

 

BTW, my life began when I left them

[SkepticOfBible]

 

Unlikely. They only seem good because you are at an early stage of becoming informed. But don't take my word for it. Every answer they give has an even better refutation somewhere online. This site, internet infidels, and positive atheism combined can kick the snot out of any pro-christian propoganda I've ever seen.

 

Amen to that. In the beginning I did accept many of the apologetic answer as valid. Off course, when I dug deeper, I actually found more holes than ever.

Does the idea of eternal torture in hell really fit with the idea of a loving father? There is no way to resolve this dilema sensibly. Free will does not resolve it. "God's secret plan" does not resolve it, and neither do any of the other incredibly lame excuses piled up. This single issue is enough to realize Christianity is bullshit.

Worse still, Hell isn't even mentioned in the OT.

 

And is it just a coincidence that "hell" existed in Gentile's theology(the main market), and that suddenly it appears in the NT writings? I mean we know for sure that early Xtians adapted their religion for convienance of the gentiles eg Sabbath and Xmas, so why is it too impossible for this concept to enter into NT writings

 

But it gets worse. Now try to explain how Jesus' death counts as a sacrifice considering he (allegedly) was executed with cause, whether the reasons were trumped up or not is irrelevent. This was simply a case of murder at best, not sacrifice.

 

And how is it lawful according to the OT? The OT clearly says each man would die for his sins, and humans are not valid sin sacrifices.

 

Next, let's explain the "fall" of Adam and Eve. Supposedly creation was perfect until they sinned, and that's why people age and die, why animals eat eachother etc. Why does the serpent's temptation not also count as sin!!? If you or I intentionally tried to persuade someone to "sin", that attempt is itself a "sin". So we were all screwed regardless of what Adam and Eve did if "sin" caused the corruption of creation.

Awseome question.

[SkepticOfBible]

Check out this article, this is the one regarding the Abdul Rahman, the christian convert in Afghanisthan. I love this this statemet of the Judge

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)

The judge further noted that "The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back" and that even while this is so, "Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told [Abdul Rahman] if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him."[11] The judge added more: "If [he] does not repent, you will all be witness to the sort of punishment he will face."[12]

 

What does this option remind you of?????See, Abdul Kalam has freewill, after alll, it's his choice, the Clerics are just executing the judgement