The Doubt Paradox

[ToddJ]

Does anyone else feel that they couldn't believe in Christianity in part because doubting it an examining it skeptically is an unforgivable sin ?  Believing that unbelief leads to hellfire leads to unbelief.  Do Christians really think God should punish me for doubting Christianity, and why?  Did Jesus drive around with a Jesus fish bumper sticker and invite everyone to altar calls to accept him as their savior under the threat of hellfire?  What prompts people to start a new religion in which Apostasy is punishable by death and hell?  Joseph Smith did it with Mormonism, and the Christians seem to have done it with Jesus.  

 

Unbelief makes me "wicked Judas" or something.  I've "betrayed Jesus" and now I deserve hell, right?  But that's the Paradox.

[LogicalFallacy]

For me the idea that god is unjust for condemning people who don't believe on bad evidence came later.

 

The main reason for disbelief for me was the lack of evidence. I got to the point where I could not honestly argue that I believed in god because all the evidence pointed away from any god existing.

 

Well actually it was the bible first, evidence didn't back up major stories in the bible... that's what opened my doubt cracks into open flood gates.

[Geezer]

Fear, intimidation, and indoctrination are necessary for Christianities survival. Lack of faith is the number one sin for a reason. If people start thinking logically, rationally, and demanding evidence that supports religions dogmas they are out of business and they know it. 

 

If believers would study the origins and evolution of the Bible and the Christian faith from the historical critical perspective they would discover none of it is literally true or historically accurate. The Bible has been edited, redacted, changed, and parts completely rewritten as Bart Ehrman, a historical scholar noted, more times than there are even words in it. 

 

Virtually every Christian believer Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the four gospels, but they didn't. No one know who wrote any part of the Bible. The names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were assigned to the four most popular gospels of the more than fifty that existed in the year 367 as a way of identifying those four anonymous gospels and also to give the impression they were written by eyewitnesses to the events being written about but no such eyewitnesses have every been found. 

 

The Bible is a collection of myths, folklore, legends, and stories copied from other ancient cultures religions. Astrotheology likely played a major role in all ancient religions including Christianity. 

 

Congratulations for figuring out that Christianity is a farce and welcome aboard. I think you will find this site helpful. 

 

[sdelsolray]

4 hours ago, ToddJ said:

Does anyone else feel that they couldn't believe in Christianity in part because doubting it an examining it skeptically is an unforgivable sin ?  Believing that unbelief leads to hellfire leads to unbelief.  Do Christians really think God should punish me for doubting Christianity, and why?  Did Jesus drive around with a Jesus fish bumper sticker and invite everyone to altar calls to accept him as their savior under the threat of hellfire?  What prompts people to start a new religion in which Apostasy is punishable by death and hell?  Joseph Smith did it with Mormonism, and the Christians seem to have done it with Jesus.  

 

Unbelief makes me "wicked Judas" or something.  I've "betrayed Jesus" and now I deserve hell, right?  But that's the Paradox.

 

Call it what it actually is...religious dogma and propaganda designed to control people by instilling fear, doubt and guilt, among other things.

 

It's not a paradox.  It's nonsense.

[megasamurai]

How sure do you have to believe in god's existence to go to heaven? If someone is 80% sure god exists, but considers the slight possibility of him not existing, is that person going to hell? Even as a believer, I didn't feel safe because the benchmark for "faith" seems to unclear. Some Christians might say that you have to be 100% sure of god's existence while others say that doubt is part of faith. The problem is, is 95% faith in god's existence enough for salvation? The bible itself seems to be ambiguous as to what benchmark measures faith.  

[God]

8 hours ago, megasamurai said:

How sure do you have to believe in god's existence to go to heaven? If someone is 80% sure god exists, but considers the slight possibility of him not existing, is that person going to hell? Even as a believer, I didn't feel safe because the benchmark for "faith" seems to unclear. Some Christians might say that you have to be 100% sure of god's existence while others say that doubt is part of faith. The problem is, is 95% faith in god's existence enough for salvation? The bible itself seems to be ambiguous as to what benchmark measures faith.  

 

It's kind of like popping a balloon....either your belief is in tact and you're in....or it "popped" a long time ago and I see through that shit. Would you want a deflated "80%" balloon? No, everyone hates those. Better bring a full balloon to my pearly gates.

[LogicalFallacy]

17 hours ago, megasamurai said:

How sure do you have to believe in god's existence to go to heaven? If someone is 80% sure god exists, but considers the slight possibility of him not existing, is that person going to hell? Even as a believer, I didn't feel safe because the benchmark for "faith" seems to unclear. Some Christians might say that you have to be 100% sure of god's existence while others say that doubt is part of faith. The problem is, is 95% faith in god's existence enough for salvation? The bible itself seems to be ambiguous as to what benchmark measures faith.  

 

My church doctrine was 100% faith or else you were out. If you had even the slightest bit of doubt then you were out. "If you doubt you are out"

 

You can imagine how much stress this caused me as a person who naturally doubts everything! There was always the struggle of do I have enough faith, will God forgive my little doubts, or will I go to hell?

 

This is the part where I say religion is bad and fucks the mind.

 

PS @God you are an  

[mwc]

On 10/31/2017 at 10:38 AM, ToddJ said:

Unbelief makes me "wicked Judas" or something.  I've "betrayed Jesus" and now I deserve hell, right?  But that's the Paradox.

     You've got that wrong.  Xians tell you that you (everyone) deserve hell and that jesus makes it so you avoid hell.  But if you give up jesus then you're back where you started.  It's not the "betrayal" that lands you in hell but simply your default state of being.  You're simply born and "original sin" lands you in hell (there are some variations of this by sect/denomination but this is the overall gist).

 

     What apostasy does is make it so you can't go back.  People claim they do even though the bible is pretty clear on it:

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

Hebrew 6:4-6

     Once you're an apostate you're out.  So the only play at this point is to say you weren't really an apostate but more a "prodigal son" so you can get back in.  Who's going to know?  This is all play-acting bullshit anyhow.  Say what you want to be, or not be, at part of whatever group you like.  Belief isn't going to get you anywhere after all.

 

          mwc

 

[LifeCycle]

Doubt is used to scare people into believing. It also labels it and those who do doubt so those within the confines of the tyrannical dogma don't talk about it. Taboo subjects that may bring about doubt are off the table. You only talk about the positives. 

 

If you're a doubter, you and God are on the outs. It's not good advertising.

 

It was a genius component added to the ideology. It really was. 

 

Don't think too much, mother fucker...  Else, Immuna beat dat ass.

 

 

[ToddJ]

22 hours ago, mwc said:

     You've got that wrong.  Xians tell you that you (everyone) deserve hell and that jesus makes it so you avoid hell.  But if you give up jesus then you're back where you started.  It's not the "betrayal" that lands you in hell but simply your default state of being.  You're simply born and "original sin" lands you in hell (there are some variations of this by sect/denomination but this is the overall gist).

 

     What apostasy does is make it so you can't go back.  People claim they do even though the bible is pretty clear on it:

 

 

     Once you're an apostate you're out.  So the only play at this point is to say you weren't really an apostate but more a "prodigal son" so you can get back in.  Who's going to know?  This is all play-acting bullshit anyhow.  Say what you want to be, or not be, at part of whatever group you like.  Belief isn't going to get you anywhere after all.

 

          mwc

 

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 

  

Hebrew 6:4-6 

 

So really I tasted the "badness" of the word of God and now I can't go back.  I believed in Christianity before I read it.  I don't like a lot of what Paul said about creating people just to be destroyed or the elite mentality of the Church.  Why can't a Buddhist or an atheist go to heaven?  If they were unselfish and kind people, why shouldn't they?  I'm a vile vile wicked non-Christian crucifying the savior repeatedly every time I doubt the Bible
 

[mwc]

19 minutes ago, ToddJ said:

Why can't a Buddhist or an atheist go to heaven?  If they were unselfish and kind people, why shouldn't they?  I'm a vile vile wicked non-Christian crucifying the savior repeatedly every time I doubt the Bible

     Because no matter how good you are, thanks to "original sin," you're just no good.  Everyone, everywhere, just need to realize that they're just no good.  The only way to be good is to convert to this particular religion and obey its rules accept jesus and have a personal relationship with him.

 

          mwc

 

[ToddJ]

4 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Because no matter how good you are, thanks to "original sin," you're just no good.  Everyone, everywhere, just need to realize that they're just no good.  The only way to be good is to convert to this particular religion and obey its rules accept jesus and have a personal relationship with him.

 

          mwc

 

Original sin was merely the desire to become like God.  Now any God worth his salt would desire his children to become like Him, therefore making eating the fruit the right decision in the first place.   

[mwc]

Just now, ToddJ said:

Original sin was merely the desire to become like God.  Now any God worth his salt would desire his children to become like Him, therefore making eating the fruit the right decision in the first place.   

     I don't know what any god might want but I do know that the one in the Genesis story wasn't too happy with the way things went, his later followers decided this was a bad thing and it was enough to keep a person out of the imaginary place they thought up.

 

          mwc

 

[Borticus]

23 hours ago, mwc said:

     You've got that wrong.  Xians tell you that you (everyone) deserve hell and that jesus makes it so you avoid hell.  But if you give up jesus then you're back where you started.  It's not the "betrayal" that lands you in hell but simply your default state of being.  You're simply born and "original sin" lands you in hell (there are some variations of this by sect/denomination but this is the overall gist).

 

     What apostasy does is make it so you can't go back.  People claim they do even though the bible is pretty clear on it:

 

 

     Once you're an apostate you're out.  So the only play at this point is to say you weren't really an apostate but more a "prodigal son" so you can get back in.  Who's going to know?  This is all play-acting bullshit anyhow.  Say what you want to be, or not be, at part of whatever group you like.  Belief isn't going to get you anywhere after all.

 

          mwc

 

This, this right here was me when I relapsed back to Xianity earlier this year. My pastor and church elders tried to convince me that it was ok and I was a prodigal son. Even when I said that it was directly from the Bible and that it was God’s infallible word, they said I would be forgiven. I couldn’t get over it though, the fearful expectation of judgement (also referenced in Hebrews) and going to hell. It disgusted me and truly got me think what “all loving god” what eternally punish me for doubting his existence.

[ToddJ]

16 minutes ago, Borticus said:

This, this right here was me when I relapsed back to Xianity earlier this year. My pastor and church elders tried to convince me that it was ok and I was a prodigal son. Even when I said that it was directly from the Bible and that it was God’s infallible word, they said I would be forgiven. I couldn’t get over it though, the fearful expectation of judgement (also referenced in Hebrews) and going to hell. It disgusted me and truly got me think what “all loving god” what eternally punish me for doubting his existence.

Apperantly the deity in question has a narcissistic attitude and an incredibly poor disposition when relating to his creation.  He seems ill tempered about things completely beyond one's control and his fits of rage betray his immature nature.  When it comes to one's beliefs, we would expect that the burden of ensuring that people believe correctly lies upon Him rather than people, and that if it is so important that someone believe a particular way, he would ensure that they do.

[Deva]

Yes, I have long seen it as a real problem that Christianity is so tied to belief and not actions.  That means you can believe in Jesus and the resurrection and the trinity, etc., still do horrible things, and go to heaven.  Why not?

[mwc]

11 hours ago, Borticus said:

This, this right here was me when I relapsed back to Xianity earlier this year. My pastor and church elders tried to convince me that it was ok and I was a prodigal son. Even when I said that it was directly from the Bible and that it was God’s infallible word, they said I would be forgiven. I couldn’t get over it though, the fearful expectation of judgement (also referenced in Hebrews) and going to hell. It disgusted me and truly got me think what “all loving god” what eternally punish me for doubting his existence.

     It amazes me that so many xians will work so hard to get their book to say something it doesn't say or mean something it doesn't mean.  I have to respect those who actually stick to their guns.  Who would tell a person that they're fucked.  But we all know that often isn't the case or that person would just fall in with some version that would apologize it all away.  None of it really matters.  When the Catholics owned the market this really happen but now you just shop around for the ones that tell you that apostasy is really just being a prodigal (now put the money in the plate).

 

          mwc

 

[FoolNoMore]

I am re-exploring Christianity, but not currently attending any church. I am working through my doubts on my own, because the topic of doubt is not very well dealt with in churches.