Question got true Christians can you explain the Anti Thesis of Marcion?

[harvester77]

I Can not accept that the god of the old testament is all good and all knowing and then came back as the peaceful loving Jesus? I've been through this hundreds of times and still trying to find one Christian who has read and studied the bible give a good explanation for this one>  The Gnostics and old Nag Hammadi explains about Archons and the Deimurge and if truth be told it makes so much more sense than the whole of modern day Christianity. I could sit and write all day the contradictions and all the things that do not make sense about how sin really entered the world and why so many Christians are so earth bound when told not to be of the world yet also believe that killing Palestinians Is ignored because its Gods will for a land when he created the whole universe? ? Didn't Hitler go too far with that one? didn't Jesus die for everyone and the world he loved so much? Why did Jesus say in him there is no more Jew or Gentile but the Demiurge in the told testament who was so Jealous sorry I meant Jesus in the old testament before he went into rehab and came out a lot more loving was so demented about a certain race to a point of pure evil for someone who created the heavens and hell? God it all sounds like many have been programmed from cradle to grave to believe on this version of Christianity? Any great Christians explain it please? thanks 

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi Harvester77

 

Welcome to Ex-C, however you might be on the wrong forum if you are wanting 'great Christians' to explain Christianity to you. (No offense to our resident Christians)

 

This is an Ex-Christian site... there are plenty of great people who can explain why its all a load of myth and human religious excrement. (Again no offense intended to Christians)

 

The gods of the old and new testament are completely separate fabrications melded together around 50-100 AD. There is no evidence of any divine creator who cares about your prayers or the sparrow that falls from the sky. The history in Israel/Palestine is what you'd expect for strategic piece of land constantly torn apart with religious wars and beset on all sides by hostile neighbors.

 

As for what Jesus said, well we don't know what he said, if we could find the historical Jesus. He did not write any works, and the gospels were written years after his supposed death and even they are not eye witness testimony.

 

As far as versions of Christianity, I have heard figures of up to over 30,000 separate forms of Christianity, though Christianity and God is what each individual makes it so the figure is closer to 2 billion.

 

 

[ironhorse]

First let me say Welcome to the Lion’s Den harvester77.  

 

Here is my first reply to your post:

I understand the need to reconcile God as revealed in the Old Testament with Jesus in the New Testament. I have accepted the reasoning that they can be reconciled.

The central theme of the Old Testament is the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom of God among people. These scriptures were written over a period of approximately 3600 years.

About 441 years separate the time of Malachi (the last Old Testament prophet) and the time of Jesus. During those 441 years, there is no record of any prophets or inspired writers in Israel.

Jesus, I believe was the promised Messiah. He said, "before Abraham was born, I am!” meaning he existed before coming to earth as a human being. He is part of the trinity of God, the other two being the Father and the Holy Spirit.

His incarnation as a human linked him forever with us. The Son of Man was Jesus' favorite term for himself.

To answer one of your questions, I believe God as revealed in the OT and Jesus in the NT are the same God.

Jesus, all through his ministry affirmed the Old Testament scriptures as containing the Word of God. He quoted it often. 

 I hope this helps in at least understanding why believers can reconcile these two distinct revelations of God.

There are parts in the Old Testament I do not understand or fully know, but for me the parts I do understand make it a fascinating and at times, mysterious story. 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

@ironhorse You did very well there in not answering the actual question, but  rather providing a summary of your personal belief system.

 

What I think Harvester was getting at is that the god of the old testament is barbaric and savage beyond nearly any other god in history. How do you reconcile this with Jesus who was about turning the other cheek?

 

(Mind you lets not fool anyone about the loving Jesus - he was quite content to say that unbelievers would burn in hell.)

[disillusioned]

Come on ironhorse. At no point there did you even approach answering the question.

[Geezer]

Christians don't study the Bible from the Historical critical perspective.  Many Christians, if not most of them,  have likely never even heard of Marcion. And they don't read books written by religious historians either. They are content to accept the Sunday School version of the Bible and condemn anyone who doesn't. 

[ironhorse]

In my first reply to this question I was setting up the premise on why the OT and NT revelations of God are the same God.

A lot to cover on this subject and I thought it best to my replies short and give time for comments and questions and input from others.

The premise of Marcionism is that the teachings of Christ are incompatible with the actions of the God of the Old Testament.

Marcion rejected the God of the Hebrew Bible as inconsistent, jealous, wrathful and genocidal, and that the material world he created was defective, a place of suffering

He found Jesus’ claim to be God incompatible with the God of the OT. He also rejected Christ as the Jewish Messiah.

Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad (the One, the Absolute) to reveal the truth about existence. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world and was wholly unknown.

This is very close to what the Gnostics taught. The slight difference is The Gnostics based their theology on secret wisdom which came from Paul. Marcion based his theology on the contents of the Letters of Paul and the recorded sayings of Jesus.

Both belief systems were rejected as unscriptural and false teachings.

 

[Geezer]

You might find the book The Fabricated Paul by Hermann Detering or The Colossal Apostle by Robert M Price helpful.

 

They are but two of many scholars that believe the evidence indicates Paul was a literary character not a real person. Just as the evidence suggest Jesus wasn't a real person either. They believe the evidence indicates the Epistles were written by Marcion & Simon Magus. Christianity is a Gnostic religion. The Gospel of John & the Epistles are Gnostic. 

 

There  were different versions of the Gnostic beliefs just as there are different versions of Christianity. Marcion & Simon Magus "discovered" Pauls Epistles in the early part of the second century. It is common knowledge among all scholars the Bible has been edited, redacted, and parts completely rewritten, as Ehrman noted in one of his books, more times than there are even words in it. 

 

That makes present day Bible's virtually useless as a reliable source for much of anything, that and the fact the Bible is literature (fictional stories) not an accurate historical record of anything. If you enjoy reading parables then you would enjoy reading the Bible. Problems arise when the reader starts believing the stories they are reading are about things that actually happened. 

 

If if you want to know what really happened you have to read a historian not an apologist, but we all know Christians would never do that because they really don't want to know the truth.