Can An Atheist Be Spiritual?

[philo]

Can an atheist be spiritual and what’s your definition of spirituality?

 

I was a Christian for about 20 years and thought that I was spiritual because of my beliefs. When I became an agnostic (10 years), I also thought that I was spiritual but for different reasons. I defined spirituality then as a mental attitude I had towards life and others. I’ve been an atheist now for about 3 years, and spirituality has become rather pointless.

 

So what’s spirituality? Is it some quest that people have to define god? Is it a mental attitude that someone has about philosophical and religious ideas? Is someone spiritual if they seek to live by higher principles in morality and ethics? Does a person stop being spiritual if they become an atheist?

 

Any ideas?

[Antlerman]

Can an atheist be spiritual and what’s your definition of spirituality?

 

I was a Christian for about 20 years and thought that I was spiritual because of my beliefs. When I became an agnostic (10 years), I also thought that I was spiritual but for different reasons. I defined spirituality then as a mental attitude I had towards life and others. I’ve been an atheist now for about 3 years, and spirituality has become rather pointless.

 

So what’s spirituality? Is it some quest that people have to define god? Is it a mental attitude that someone has about philosophical and religious ideas? Is someone spiritual if they seek to live by higher principles in morality and ethics? Does a person stop being spiritual if they become an atheist?

 

Any ideas?

Hi Philo,

 

We may wind up posting the same subject in two places here as I just posted a longer response in the Colleseum under "God Needs Salvation!" topic. But to address the specific question, I completely believe that spirituality is a natural part the human experience, regardless of having a religion, or god, or being purely secular.

 

I see spirituality as our emotional/cognitive response to our awareness of existence, our own and of the universe. All the things you listed above are merely ways of expressing or defining that response, but they are not spirituality in themselves. Mental attitudes or philosophical/religious ideas are means to draw the mindset towards an openness to this response to life.

 

For me as an atheist, I find art, music, poetry the best language to impart the impressions of this experience on spiritually conceptual way, Human language sucks at this, but the language of mythology, when taken in the sense of symbolic and not literal, can convey some of these concepts. But for me personally, art and music excels at this. Moreover, human actions prompted by genuine love also communicate these “concepts”. We feel a connection to ourselves, to others, and to the world we exist in. This is to me what spirituality is, and is far beyond what is defined by the one’s who lay claim to it - the religious institution.

 

Should we consolidate this into the other thread?

[The Sage Nabooru]

My producer is one of the most spiritual people I'll ever meet, but he's an atheist.

 

My personal view is that there is a God, but that God does not require Itself to be consciously present in our lives in order for us to find truth. To give an example, your parents wouldn't raise you so that you would depend on them and need them for the rest of your life. So your God would not create you and then demand that you depend on It for learning or finding of Spirit. Freedom is a lie if God still had a tether.

[Open_Minded]

Can an atheist be spiritual and what’s your definition of spirituality?

<snip>

So what’s spirituality? Is it some quest that people have to define god? Is it a mental attitude that someone has about philosophical and religious ideas? Is someone spiritual if they seek to live by higher principles in morality and ethics? Does a person stop being spiritual if they become an atheist?

 

Any ideas?

 

What is spirituality? Well to me it's feeling connected with that which is larger than yourself - feeling interconnected. Feeling as though your life has purpose beyond the daily grind of living. Feeling as though your life is part of a larger wholeness.

 

Can an atheist be spiritual? At one time in my life my father considered himself agnostic/atheist. He is one of the most spiritual people I know. He taught me how to be spiritual during those years of his life, I was a teen and young adult during that period. Yes, most definitely, an atheist can be spiritual.

[philo]

You'all ever heard of the God Gene? The term was coined by a recent book in which it was suggested that there are parts of the human brain that can be stimulated and give people wonderful spritual experience.

 

Open_Minded . . . Well to me it's feeling connected with that which is larger than yourself - feeling interconnected. Feeling as though your life has purpose beyond the daily grind of living.

 

When I really embraced atheism I lost all sense of purpose and the interconnected feeling you're describing. I feel about as significant as a piece of sand in other wards. On the other hand, I'm a big humanist, but I don't think I really can change anything in this world. Know what I mean?

 

And The Sage Nabooru . . .

My personal view is that there is a God, but that God does not require Itself to be consciously present in our lives in order for us to find truth.

 

What might you think is the truth if God is not visible or active?

 

And Antlerman . . . I completely believe that spirituality is a natural part the human experience, regardless of having a religion, or god, or being purely secular.

 

What or who do you think causes you to think this way about spirituality? I'm curious as you are an atheist.

 

I'm inclined to think these days that similar to any other mental function some people are just more spiritual. They're born with more of that "fuzzy" wonderful attitude towards life. For a lot of people I think they teneciously hold onto this feeling as though it were their last remaining connection to God. Do spiritual feelings validate God?

 

Giving up the notion that this feeling was connected to god (or put in my mind by god) really freed me up to see life in quite a different way. Difficult to explain, but for me it's as if my spirituality was multiplied ten fold. More purpose, more focus, more compassion, more appreciation for life and humanity . . . those kinds of things.

[Lycorth]

I don't see why an Atheist can't be spiritual. Even when I was at my most strictly Deist (disregarding anything but a severely Deistic outlook) I still felt as if I could be very spiritual if I wanted. Maybe it's me, but spirituality and a "feeling" of such do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. They can, of course, but don't need to be. When I would contemplate "spiritual" matters, I'd find it intellectualy stimulating and also fascinating to explore the different little theories and such I'd cook up in my mind. Almost like a scientific curiosity, you could say.

 

Now I'm on more of a Heathenish leaning, but I could have another wave of strict Deism overcome me. It's all good - either way is most interesting to me and I look forward to the explorations. But, back to the strict Deism bit; I felt as if I could be very spiritual even when believing only in an unknown and unknowable god or gods who aren't able to intervene at all in the world. To me, the as-of-yet unexplored and unrecognized "realm" of the "supernatural" (or the merely "noncorporeal" if you follow me) can exist just fine without any special life-support from any god or similar being. An Atheist who denies any sort of sentient creator-being can therefore explore this just as anyone else can.

[All Gods Fail]

Well, if you want to argue semantics it's technically impossible for an atheist to be 'spiritual' since they don't believe in spirits. Myself, I don't believe in the supernatural, or souls or spirits, so I can't truly be spiritual.

 

But if by spiritual you mean 'thoughtful', 'contemplative', or 'humanitarian', I like to think I'm all of those things.

 

It's very strange to me, but since becoming a full-blown atheist I show a lot more love towards people, and have a greater interest in my fellow primates. Odd, but true. In a sense, I became more 'spiritual' as a non-believer.

[Antlerman]

It's very strange to me, but since becoming a full-blown atheist I show a lot more love towards people, and have a greater interest in my fellow primates. Odd, but true. In a sense, I became more 'spiritual' as a non-believer.

Just a quick though popped into my head as I read this, and of course related to it: That when I realized humankind and myself as part of that, were not more special than the rest of life, it is both a humbling and liberating moment that I felt myself more free to love from who I was inside than ever before.

[philo]

Varokhar, good stuff

 

An Atheist who denies any sort of sentient creator-being can therefore explore this just as anyone else can.

 

Few Christians would acknowledge this. I think the religious mind is too prone to believe the scary wife's tales that once you stop believing in Christianity you start acting like the devil.

 

But if by spiritual you mean 'thoughtful', 'contemplative', or 'humanitarian', I like to think I'm all of those things.

 

It's very strange to me, but since becoming a full-blown atheist I show a lot more love towards people, and have a greater interest in my fellow primates. Odd, but true. In a sense, I became more 'spiritual' as a non-believer.

 

All God's Fail. Ditto. I've known a lot of people that have pulled away from organized religion who claim to be spiritual, and its because they find themselves becoming more humanitarian etc. Perhaps a term needs to be invented to take the place of spiritual for the skeptic who still acts spiritual?

 

 

That when I realized humankind and myself as part of that, were not more special than the rest of life, it is both a humbling and liberating moment that I felt myself more free to love from who I was inside than ever before.

 

Don't you think there's a lot of "thought" garbage that religions put in our minds? It has been amazing to me to discover better ways of thinking and acting outside of religious thinking. I find myself comparing my old religious thinking with my non-religious thinking. You mentioned humility. Religious humility is more of a downplaying of "self" with the goal of earning rewards/favors from God. That's not humility. Real humility is knowing that in the 90 billion people that have come and gone that your life is for the most part, meaningless. Now that's liberation. In an ironic sort of way, knowing that you are meaningless has the added avantage of really allowing a person to discover themselves and their relationship to others.

[Rachelness]

An atheist is just somebody with no belief in a god, so I see no reason why an atheist can't be spiritual. I have spiritual friends who call themselves atheists.

[Antlerman]

And Antlerman . . . I completely believe that spirituality is a natural part the human experience, regardless of having a religion, or god, or being purely secular.

 

What or who do you think causes you to think this way about spirituality? I'm curious as you are an atheist.

 

I'm inclined to think these days that similar to any other mental function some people are just more spiritual. They're born with more of that "fuzzy" wonderful attitude towards life. For a lot of people I think they teneciously hold onto this feeling as though it were their last remaining connection to God. Do spiritual feelings validate God?

 

Giving up the notion that this feeling was connected to god (or put in my mind by god) really freed me up to see life in quite a different way. Difficult to explain, but for me it's as if my spirituality was multiplied ten fold. More purpose, more focus, more compassion, more appreciation for life and humanity . . . those kinds of things.

First I need to clarify what I mean by spirituality, or what I don't mean by it. Spirituality is not accessing some realm or plane of existence that is outside us that "spirits" live in (dead people/animals; angels; unseen cosmic forces of "good"; saints; ghosts; gods; God; or any "supernatural" or "unexplained" natural forces).

 

By spirituality, I mean the human spirit. By "spirit" I mean that aspect of our beings that responds to life, to being alive, to others, to ourselves. It seems to me that part of myself that inspires my emotions and my mind. The best I can describe it is: that which is a positive response to the world that inspires the fullest potentials of the human being, with acts of reverence, humility, wonder, love, compassion, creativity, giving, joy, peace, grace, patience, etc. Those higher qualities that promote life are those which are most beneficial to us and the world. It is that sense that connects us to world, and the world to us.

 

This is a natural part of being a sentient human being. What makes people more "aware of" or "tuned into" this part of the human experience of life, IMO, is usually some event in life that triggers this perspective, usually something substantial that cause a refocusing of thought. Also, a rock to the nose and frontal lobe damage... oh wait, now we're talking about hallucinatory visions here.... another discussion and different from this

 

So to answer "What or who causes me to think this way"? My own piecing together what I have seen and experienced? I don't follow any teachings or doctrines or philosophies, per se. I try to understand the world from a naturalistic, humanistic understanding, while recognizing this very real and powerful part of the human experience. I think to dismiss it, is to deny something very natural and significant for people. I also think to place it outside ourselves as something we are separated from and need to be reconciled with; in effect it creates that separation.

 

Art: The Unspoiled Language.

 

(just threw that in there. Seems so much better suited to communicate the experience of the spirit, than reason alone)

[philo]

Art: The Unspoiled Language.

 

Also perhaps, the unspoiled expression of spirituality?

 

The best I can describe it is: that which is a positive response to the world that inspires the fullest potentials of the human being, with acts of reverence, humility, wonder, love, compassion, creativity, giving, joy, peace, grace, patience, etc.

 

Your comment made me wonder if the negatives in life play into spirituality. Does a negative response to uninspiring the worst of potential with acts of hate and anger etc.. . . That sounds awkward I know. But our concept of spirituality does emphasise only that which is good. It also mimics what we have long been taught in Christianity and other religions that God only represents what is good, and this is what we should emulate.

 

To tell you the truth, and in all honesty, sometimes I'm not so sure how advanced man is above the savagery of the animals. I'd like to believe that the kind of spirituality you are referring to could save the world and replace religion altogether, but I'm not so sure. Actually, I think nothing short of a quantum leap in evolution will erase many of the natural desires of men/women. Anger, resentment, survival, hate, and these kinds of negative emotions have their place.

 

Does anyone think that the ultimate goal is to be spiritual, by focusing on only good ethics and virtues, and avoiding that other "half" of life we call evil??

 

Or our we bound to perhaps secretly cherish the idea that our actions will be judged in an afterlife?

[All Gods Fail]

Or our we bound to perhaps secretly cherish the idea that our actions will be judged in an afterlife?

 

THAT is one of the most interesting ideas I've read on this board. You may be on to something there, philo.

 

Have to think about that one...

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

The best I can describe it is: that which is a positive response to the world that inspires the fullest potentials of the human being, with acts of reverence, humility, wonder, love, compassion, creativity, giving, joy, peace, grace, patience, etc.

 

Your comment made me wonder if the negatives in life play into spirituality. Does a negative response to uninspiring the worst of potential with acts of hate and anger etc.. . . That sounds awkward I know. But our concept of spirituality does emphasise only that which is good. It also mimics what we have long been taught in Christianity and other religions that God only represents what is good, and this is what we should emulate.

 

To tell you the truth, and in all honesty, sometimes I'm not so sure how advanced man is above the savagery of the animals. I'd like to believe that the kind of spirituality you are referring to could save the world and replace religion altogether, but I'm not so sure. Actually, I think nothing short of a quantum leap in evolution will erase many of the natural desires of men/women. Anger, resentment, survival, hate, and these kinds of negative emotions have their place.

 

Does anyone think that the ultimate goal is to be spiritual, by focusing on only good ethics and virtues, and avoiding that other "half" of life we call evil??

 

 

 

I like these two thoughts. Re yours, Antlerman: for me I'd prefer a word other than "spiritual/ity". I think that word connotes that all the noble elements of humanity that you refer to come from or are somehow connected to a higher realm than the human. I think the word "spiritual" first denoted christians in the Roman period who claimed special influence of the Holy Spirit, and ditto in the middle ages. Pneumatikos, "spiritual" means having to do with the Pneuma, i.e. literally "breath," later "Spirit" as in HS. So I think using the term "spirituality" when we talk about the wondrous side of the human being makes it seem subtly as though those qualities aren't genuinely part of human nature but have to be instilled, or at least, awakened by some higher power that we access. I think the notion that there is a big realm out there, of which we are parts, and that we try to live in harmony with it is itself a human notion. "Humanism" sounds sort of lame, though. I don't have a better word right now.

 

I also like your point, Philo, that the human being has an aggressive side, too, which we try to bleed out at our peril. We are animals, after all; we are not spirits.

 

Years ago I was thinking of becoming a Benedictine monk and I spent some time at a monastery. Various visitors would come and go. I asked one seminarian staying there what he was learning. I expected him to say something pious about the spiritual life. I remember his reply very clearly, "learning how to become a human being."

 

cheers everyone

[Antlerman]

Art: The Unspoiled Language.

 

Also perhaps, the unspoiled expression of spirituality?

That is what I meant.

 

Your comment made me wonder if the negatives in life play into spirituality. Does a negative response to uninspiring the worst of potential with acts of hate and anger etc.. . . That sounds awkward I know. But our concept of spirituality does emphasise only that which is good. It also mimics what we have long been taught in Christianity and other religions that God only represents what is good, and this is what we should emulate.

 

To tell you the truth, and in all honesty, sometimes I'm not so sure how advanced man is above the savagery of the animals. I'd like to believe that the kind of spirituality you are referring to could save the world and replace religion altogether, but I'm not so sure. Actually, I think nothing short of a quantum leap in evolution will erase many of the natural desires of men/women. Anger, resentment, survival, hate, and these kinds of negative emotions have their place.

 

Does anyone think that the ultimate goal is to be spiritual, by focusing on only good ethics and virtues, and avoiding that other "half" of life we call evil??

 

Or our we bound to perhaps secretly cherish the idea that our actions will be judged in an afterlife?

My first thought after I equated spirituality with the positive, was your question about the negative. I still think that the positive aspects of life is appropriate to put into the term "spirituality", because it would be those things that nurture the human spirit - or to use another term, a human's sense of well being, a sense of life. Those attitudes or senses which are positive lead humans towards a more cooperative approach to the world and to others, the end goal of which is self preservation. Humans are a social being and need to be able to function within society for the sake of the individual and the species (aberrations and mutations aside).

 

To embrace "darkness" or "negative" qualities, works against the purpose. When we dwell on despair and negative thoughts, our "spirits" (mind and emotions), become depressed and we respond with a loss of energy. Hatred, murder, violence, etc, work against us in the goal of survival. Technically I suppose, dwelling on death and destruction could also be considered spiritual in that it affects the human spirit, but I would then consider it to be a negative spirituality, and the purpose for it would be....? It would be the exception to the rule IMO since we seem programmed for survival, by and large.

 

Personally, I think that concept of Christianity are not original at all and that our concepts of spirituality come from them. Our concepts of spirituality come from the human experience, and humans used the language of mythology to communicate them. Man created the system, not the other way around.

 

I think the ulitmate goal of spirituality is nurturing and fostering those attitudes and actions that promote life. I have zero concerns about judgement of my actions in some projected afterlife, I evaluate my actions based on the benefit they offer to life. If they are unhealthy, I should change them, if they are healthy I should nurture them. If living and embracing life is wrong in the opinion of some religious doctrine, that that belief is anti-life.

[philo]

Ficino, That was good info on the background of the term spirituality. Was not aware of some of those facts. It really shows the connection that people make to connect there "spirituality" with a supernatural source. Glad you didn't become a monk, and my quess is that you've learned more about being human than you might have sitting in temple and eating donated fruit!

 

Alterman. Yeah, I was vague with my comment about negatives. The idea popped into my head and I didn't give enough thought to the idea. I do totally get you comments but here's a practical example of what I was trying to get at.

 

I went to the bank yesterday to put my name on one of my wife's accounts. Apparently the bank has installed some "patriot act software." The quy started to ask me a lot of personal questions and I felt like I was in a police interrogation room. So I got angry. I got angry because my privacy was being invaded, that all started with events that transpired on 911 . . . events that were caused by religious fanatics. The gist of it is that my government is now keeping stronger tabs on its citizens and religion is the culprit.

 

Anyway, I could be spiritual in this situation and keep all kinds of wonderful, spiritual thoughts running through my head. But my human nature took over and I got upset, upset enough to start thinking about what I might be able to do, or fight, or act on to express my dislike for what was happening to me. But whose got time for that?

 

Guess my point here is that spirituality seems to be some positive "quality" of life we strive for, while thinking that we need to downplay the role of our more bad, natural animalistic tendencies. There are so many good things that happen in life that are caused by things we consider negative. ie wars, revolutions, or just plain getting mad enough to stand up for the right causes.

 

Religions tend to think all that is bad is evil and not of God. These days I'm leaning more toward the idea that there is no evil, and not all that is bad is really bad. I'm also leaning towards the idea that thinking "spiritual thoughts" all the time does not really make a person as happy as they think it might, or that it is the most productive.

 

Hope that's not too fuzzy.

[Antlerman]

Anyway, I could be spiritual in this situation and keep all kinds of wonderful, spiritual thoughts running through my head. But my human nature took over and I got upset, upset enough to start thinking about what I might be able to do, or fight, or act on to express my dislike for what was happening to me. But whose got time for that?

 

Guess my point here is that spirituality seems to be some positive "quality" of life we strive for, while thinking that we need to downplay the role of our more bad, natural animalistic tendencies. There are so many good things that happen in life that are caused by things we consider negative. ie wars, revolutions, or just plain getting mad enough to stand up for the right causes.

 

Religions tend to think all that is bad is evil and not of God. These days I'm leaning more toward the idea that there is no evil, and not all that is bad is really bad. I'm also leaning towards the idea that thinking "spiritual thoughts" all the time does not really make a person as happy as they think it might, or that it is the most productive.

 

Hope that's not too fuzzy.

I don't think that the over-reaching of the government we are seeing has religion at its cause, or is a response to religion. At it's heart is a philosophy of control of others, and 9/11 is an excuse. Remember the communists and McCarthyism? Religion is a convenient tool for the power hungry to use to justify their actions to the masses. So are philosophies of racial purity, etc. People are the problem. Religion has been abused by people, but it is not the cause of their behaviors. They are responsible for their own choices and actions.

 

Being spiritual does not mean being passive and living in some fictional utopia. To me it means having a heart and mind that can rise above passions of anger that will allow thoughts that are clear and actions effective and respectful. If it means disagreement, or taking actions to change something that is wrong, such as taking away the freedom of others, it is guided by notions of respect and fairness, not lying down and letting people walk over you in some sort of doped up euphoria. Anger can harnessed to be productive if it tempered by reason, and reason guided by higher principles are more effective. Death is not life.

 

BTW, I do not believe there is some force we know of as evil. Terms like that are merely negatively charged words that encourage people to reject certain behaviors which work against the greater good.

[Antlerman]

I like these two thoughts. Re yours, Antlerman: for me I'd prefer a word other than "spiritual/ity". I think that word connotes that all the noble elements of humanity that you refer to come from or are somehow connected to a higher realm than the human. I think the word "spiritual" first denoted christians in the Roman period who claimed special influence of the Holy Spirit, and ditto in the middle ages. Pneumatikos, "spiritual" means having to do with the Pneuma, i.e. literally "breath," later "Spirit" as in HS. So I think using the term "spirituality" when we talk about the wondrous side of the human being makes it seem subtly as though those qualities aren't genuinely part of human nature but have to be instilled, or at least, awakened by some higher power that we access. I think the notion that there is a big realm out there, of which we are parts, and that we try to live in harmony with it is itself a human notion. "Humanism" sounds sort of lame, though. I don't have a better word right now.

I like what you have to say about "humanism". Sometimes I try to use that term but feel it falls short. I like your comment about the time in a monastery as, "learning to be human". That really strikes a chord with me.

 

As far as the use of the word "spiritual", I don't think that word is charged completely with Christian theology. Christians want to co-opt all things like this as the official protectors of all things of the spirit, but I guess I see nothing wrong with trying to reclaim the language.

 

On Wiki's sites they site as study on how people use that word. I think it expresses how I use it.

Spirituality, according to most adherants, is an essential part of an individual's holistic health and well-being.

 

Due to its broad scope and personal nature, however, spirituality can perhaps be better understood by highlighting key concepts that arise when people are asked to describe what spirituality means to them. Research by Martsolf and Mickley (1998) highlighted the following areas as worthy of consideration:

 

Meaning – significance of life; making sense of situations; deriving purpose.

Values – beliefs, standards and ethics that are cherished.

Transcendence – experience, awareness, and appreciation of a "transcendent dimension" to life beyond self.

Connecting – increased awareness of a connection with self, others, God/Spirit/Divine, and nature.

Becoming – an unfolding of life that demands reflection and experience; includes a sense of who one is and how one knows.

[Guest Brando]

"Or our we bound to perhaps secretly cherish the idea that our actions will be judged in an afterlife?"

 

 

Interesting discussion-this caught my eye in particular. I really think there is something to it.

 

As an atheist, I not only lack the supposed comfort of believing in an afterflife, but I realize that there ultimately is no objective right or wrong, and hence no justice for many people who I feel should be punished. I think many atheists kind of gloss over this in discussions of their worldview, but I doubt it is really such an easy thing to look past for an entire lifetime.

 

Even though I see morality as a deeply ingrained herd instinct, this realization(that unseen wrongs go unpunished, particularly for those without a conscience) does make issues of morality a bit more difficult.

 

At this point in my life I really believe spirituality has more to do with dopamine than any kind of inherent "goodness" about life or human beings.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

As an atheist, I not only lack the supposed comfort of believing in an afterflife, but I realize that there ultimately is no objective right or wrong, and hence no justice for many people who I feel should be punished. I think many atheists kind of gloss over this in discussions of their worldview, but I doubt it is really such an easy thing to look past for an entire lifetime.

 

Even though I see morality as a deeply ingrained herd instinct, this realization(that unseen wrongs go unpunished, particularly for those without a conscience) does make issues of morality a bit more difficult.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I have an answer for those who demand that all wrongs be punished, in the hereafter if not in this world. Some wrongs just aren't punished. A couple of considerations, though:

1. I think the person who chooses to break promises, harm others, etc. reaps the bitter fruit of her/his own actions in a disordered inner life plus maybe is feared but not loved.

2. I don't think the punishment issue is an argument for God, that's fer sure. Look at the character "God" in the Bible. Look at all the shit he pulls and gets away with - no punishment for that egoistical murdering tyrant. Start with drowning kittens in the Flood and go on from there... If there has to be punishment, the cross wasn't enough.

[Guest Brando]

 

As an atheist, I not only lack the supposed comfort of believing in an afterflife, but I realize that there ultimately is no objective right or wrong, and hence no justice for many people who I feel should be punished. I think many atheists kind of gloss over this in discussions of their worldview, but I doubt it is really such an easy thing to look past for an entire lifetime.

 

Even though I see morality as a deeply ingrained herd instinct, this realization(that unseen wrongs go unpunished, particularly for those without a conscience) does make issues of morality a bit more difficult.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I have an answer for those who demand that all wrongs be punished, in the hereafter if not in this world. Some wrongs just aren't punished. A couple of considerations, though:

1. I think the person who chooses to break promises, harm others, etc. reaps the bitter fruit of her/his own actions in a disordered inner life plus maybe is feared but not loved.

2. I don't think the punishment issue is an argument for God, that's fer sure. Look at the character "God" in the Bible. Look at all the shit he pulls and gets away with - no punishment for that egoistical murdering tyrant. Start with drowning kittens in the Flood and go on from there... If there has to be punishment, the cross wasn't enough.

 

 

 

I definitely dont see it as any kind of argument for god either. I was just pointing out that maybe it is natural (evolved?) for us to need justice. There is a good article on this subject on infidels.org. It's new, on the home page.

 

I think of this whenever I see OJ simpson partying and playing golf with a big smile on his face.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

I definitely dont see it as any kind of argument for god either.

Yes, I was not thinking it was your position but rather the position of a lot of theists, who think there is no reason to act justly, etc. if there isn't a big reward/punishment system after death.

 

I was just pointing out that maybe it is natural (evolved?) for us to need justice. There is a good article on this subject on infidels.org. It's new, on the home page.

 

 

A third reason I could add for acting justly is the converse of the first one I suggested above, i.e. the happiness you get when you treat people well and act cooperatively. The fact that we are happier when we contribute to other people's happiness, keep promises, etc. is consistent with what you propose about our evolved needs, I think. So I agree there.

[philo]

Religion has been abused by people, but it is not the cause of their behaviors. They are responsible for their own choices and actions.

 

Not sure you really believe this Antlerman. Historically and in the present day, it is religious ideologies that cause people to act in ways that are both unethical and immoral. I do take it a step further though. In general, I think most people would act ethically and in the best interests of humanity, but it is precisely because of their religious beliefs that they act unethically. They use religion and their concepts about god to justify their bad behavior.

 

The bank experience was frustrating. But were it not for Muslim extremists (religion) I would have greater freedoms. I also think the present war in Iraq was caused in great part by religious ideologies.

 

"From the first moment I looked into that horror on September 11th, into that fireball, into that explosion of horror, I knew it, I recognized an old companion. I recognized religion." - Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete, professor of theology at St. Joseph's Seminary in New York.

 

BTW. Thanks for the definitions of spirituality you posted.

[philo]

Hey Brando, I like you comment here:

 

As an atheist, I not only lack the supposed comfort of believing in an afterflife, but I realize that there ultimately is no objective right or wrong, and hence no justice for many people who I feel should be punished.

 

I think the majority of individuals would not be satisfied with this line of reasoning. No justice, are you crazy! I also think this to be one of the main "attractions" for Christianity. People want justice, they need justice--or do they?

 

Personally, I think a person better and better off when they discard the notion of justice. The biblical admonition that "God will have his revenge" brings no comfort to me. If anything, it makes me question God's benevolence. The notion that God needs revenge also plays into the concept of forgiveness. If god will have his revenge, clearly, he does not understand the concept of forgiveness.

 

Ficino, this is the logic and the scare tactic often used by religion to discourage atheism.

 

Yes, I was not thinking it was your position but rather the position of a lot of theists, who think there is no reason to act justly, etc. if there isn't a big reward/punishment system after death.

 

I'll add a twist. The actions of a believer are suspect, when they are motivated to act because of rewards and punishments. If a theist believes that they will go off the deep end when the carrot is removed, then they probably don't have a grasp on ethics.

[Antlerman]

Religion has been abused by people, but it is not the cause of their behaviors. They are responsible for their own choices and actions.

 

Not sure you really believe this Antlerman. Historically and in the present day, it is religious ideologies that cause people to act in ways that are both unethical and immoral. I do take it a step further though. In general, I think most people would act ethically and in the best interests of humanity, but it is precisely because of their religious beliefs that they act unethically. They use religion and their concepts about god to justify their bad behavior.

(Emphasis mine) What you said in red is what I am saying. I am trying to recognize that people are responsible for their choices, rather that always blaming religion for their actions. If a religious doctrine taught it is God's will to slaughter helpless children with a sledge hammer, for me to act upon that says something about me.

 

The question is, that could easily lead to another thread: Do people learn ethics from religious doctrines, or do they adopt, create, and promote religious views that suit their values? I would say the latter. Man creates God in his own image. Those that made God a murderer of infants are fucked in the head. Those who find it acceptable are of the same defective character.