Assumptions

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

A man drinks heavily, on a daily basis.  His wife treats him with contempt and disrespect.

 

Depending on one’s perspective, given these two facts, it might be easy for one to assume that the wife treats the man with contempt and disrespect because he drinks heavily.  But what if that’s not the case at all?  What if the man is a real human being, with genuine emotions, sensitivities, and aspirations; who feels deeply every wounding remark, every sideways glance, every undermining action his wife throws his way? 

 

What if, in fact, the man drinks because his wife treats him with contempt and disrespect?

 

Logic dictates that there is probably truth in both perspectives; but the wife generally only understands her own perception, while the husband sees only his.  This is the problem with making abrupt assumptions about others based on one’s own experience and viewpoint.

 

Here’s another case in point:

 

I left the faith.  god’s plan did not work.

 

I would ask anyone caring to respond:  Which is more logical?  That god’s plan did not work because I left the faith; or that I left the faith because god’s plan did not work?

 

@Christforums

[1989]

There's a third option: you leaving the faith was God's plan.

 

If God knows us before we were born, knows every hair on our heads, then He knows pretty much everything about you, up to and including your entire genealogy.  Do you think that a supposedly omnipotent being that can and does manipulates or foresees your birth down to your Nth degree grandparents can be thwarted by a mere mortal?  We already know that God saves some of us and destroys others (Book of Romans), so your leaving the faith is simply an excuse to have you destroyed for His glory.  Just a thought.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

True indeed.  But if that's the kind of plan he makes, he's not the kind of god I'd want to spend eternity with anyway.

 

But the point here is about assumptions, not the theological alternatives to my leaving the flock.

[1989]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But the point here is about assumptions, not the theological alternatives to my leaving the flock.

 

See, you talk in parables and you confuse people.  That's a Jesus move right there. 

 

Seriously though, like you said, the assumption is based on your mindset.  If I were to play Devil's Advocate, I would say God's plan didn't work because you left.  He sets you up, but it's up to you to walk away.  You chose to go left when God wanted you to go right.  Still this opinion includes the Free Will argument that Christians love, so if I were one this would be my answer, because to admit that God's Plan didn't work is pretty much blasphemy and a step too far.

[wellnamed]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Logic dictates that there is probably truth in both perspectives

 

nit: It's not logic that dictates that, it's experience

 

I think your general point about the need to consider which explanations are more parsimonious (or abductively more likely) is good, and the recent conversations reminded me of this as well.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, 1989 said:

 

See, you talk in parables and you confuse people.  That's a Jesus move right there. 

 

Seriously though, like you said, the assumption is based on your mindset.  If I were to play Devil's Advocate, I would say God's plan didn't work because you left.  He sets you up, but it's up to you to walk away.  You chose to go left when God wanted you to go right.  Still this opinion includes the Free Will argument that Christians love, so if I were one this would be my answer, because to admit that God's Plan didn't work is pretty much blasphemy and a step too far.

But that answer is based on yet more assumption.  How do you know I chose to go left when god wanted me to go right?  How do you know god even wanted me to go right?  By assumption.  It's easy to say in retrospect, after a certain decision ended in disastrous consequences, that "you just didn't listen to god and follow his plan."  But isn't that also based on the assumption that I didn't pray, seek godly counsel, and listen prior to making the decision?  The "right" decision ("god's plan") is only determined after the consequences have come into being; but who's to say that making a different decision at the time wouldn't have also ended in chaos?

 

Which brings up a different conversation all-together, based on the assumptions theists make on what is and is not "god's plan".  May need a separate thread; but the idea can be entertained here for now.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, wellnamed said:

 

nit: It's not logic that dictates that, it's experience

 

I think your general point about the need to consider which explanations are more parsimonious (or abductively more likely) is good, and the recent conversations reminded me of this as well.

Yeah, "logic" was a poor word choice there.  

[1989]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But that answer is based on yet more assumption.  How do you know I chose to go left when god wanted me to go right?  How do you know god even wanted me to go right?  By assumption.  It's easy to say in retrospect, after a certain decision ended in disastrous consequences, that "you just didn't listen to god and follow his plan."  But isn't that also based on the assumption that I didn't pray, seek godly counsel, and listen prior to making the decision?  The "right" decision ("god's plan") is only determined after the consequences have come into being; but who's to say that making a different decision at the time wouldn't have also ended in chaos?

 

Without being God everything kind of has to be an assumption when dealing with His motives and ideas.  Besides, the right decision may not even be the right decision, even when things don't end up in chaos and heartbreak.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, 1989 said:

 

Without being God everything kind of has to be an assumption when dealing with His motives and ideas.  Besides, the right decision may not even be the right decision, even when things don't end up in chaos and heartbreak.

Yeah, a separate thread for assumptions about god and his plans.  And true, I've made some "right" decisions that ended in tribulation; and some "wrong" decisions that ended in triumph.  Hard to say, really.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Bump.  @Christforums

[sdelsolray]

On 1/18/2019 at 5:47 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

A man drinks heavily, on a daily basis.  His wife treats him with contempt and disrespect.

 

...

I would ask anyone caring to respond:  Which is more logical?  That god’s plan did not work because I left the faith; or that I left the faith because god’s plan did not work?

 

@Christforums

 

It's not a matter of logic, but of probability, with a necessary initial question of whether there are other choices besides the two you presented.