Ex Christians?

[theunraveler]

Hello everyone, I just had a thought that has been on my mind for sometime and I wanted to share with everyone here. Feel free to discuss it , disagree with it but please try not to degenerate into personal attacks and flames please. Keep things civil

 

I was thinking back to the time when I was Christian and how the elders in the Church are preaching about the Rapture and disdain for homosexuals and expressing typical "christian behaviors". I remember a sermon about how Christ came and sat down and dine with tax collectors and prostitutes, something that was unthinkable with the old fashioned rabbis and their way of doing things. What Christ did was something truly new and ahead of his times and truly unconventional. He was the first to deconvert from Judaism and in doing so became something new altogether.

 

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

 

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

[Dhampir]

Um, if we no longer adhere to the bible, the god contained therein, or organized religion, then we have deconverted from christianity. Whether or not we still believe in or even worship a god in some form is irrelevant. We are not christians. You may be.

[theunraveler]

Um, if we no longer adhere to the bible, the god contained therein, or organized religion, then we have deconverted from christianity. Whether or not we still believe in or even worship a god in some form is irrelevant. We are not christians. You may be.

Yes, thats true, while you are no longer Christian but if u respect ur fellow man and do good when u see there is an opportunity to do so, it is enough.

 

I deconverted 6 years ago, I thought I would never believe in god. I am now what some atheist called "weak agnostic" since I dont suscribe to any one religion although Christianity did have an influence on my past life but I am not beyond dismissing the possibility that there might be a creator in our universe.

[Vigile]

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

I went through a similar phase on my way out, but I don't believe in god at all now so I'm not sure how this would apply.

[theunraveler]

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

I went through a similar phase on my way out, but I don't believe in god at all now so I'm not sure how this would apply.

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

[Taphophilia]

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

I went through a similar phase on my way out, but I don't believe in god at all now so I'm not sure how this would apply.

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

 

The morality teachings of the NT came form Eastern thought which is much more ancient than Christianity. So, according to your arguement, we were never really Christians in the first place. We were more like Buddhists.

 

Taph

[Amethyst]

Hello everyone, I just had a thought that has been on my mind for sometime and I wanted to share with everyone here. Feel free to discuss it , disagree with it but please try not to degenerate into personal attacks and flames please. Keep things civil

 

I was thinking back to the time when I was Christian and how the elders in the Church are preaching about the Rapture and disdain for homosexuals and expressing typical "christian behaviors". I remember a sermon about how Christ came and sat down and dine with tax collectors and prostitutes, something that was unthinkable with the old fashioned rabbis and their way of doing things. What Christ did was something truly new and ahead of his times and truly unconventional. He was the first to deconvert from Judaism and in doing so became something new altogether.

 

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

 

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

"There's no such thing as an ex-Christian" is a myth the church promotes and is NOT TRUE. They want you to believe in it so you will go back to them when you question. It is just a way of keeping you in line. It is a method of control, like the hell doctrine.

 

I, for one, no longer believe in the Bible or Jesus' existence. To be a Christian, you do have to at least believe in Jesus' existence, whether you believed he lived in the past and was a philsopher but not a deity, or that he is somehow alive in the present, despite the later being a logical impossibility. That is one of the key beliefs of the religion/cult.

 

I strongly suspect that Jesus was an amalgation of various Pagan deities and did not really exist, one way or the other. In short, he was a literary creation. What purpose he was originally created for, we may never know, but the myth has been used throughout history since its creation to control the human populace and keep us in check.

 

Being a good person is not only specific to Christianity. Anyone can be a good person. The fact that being a good person is practically snonymous with being Christian in our culture shows how pervasive the cult really is.

 

I am agnostic. I do NOT believe in any gods currently being worshipped on earth, although I cannot say for sure whether something else may exist that could be seen as something "divine." But I am certain that if something like that does exist, it cannot be the Christian deity. The Christian deity is a cruel tyrant who would torture all of us, yes even you, for all of eternity for not believing literally in him. Why worship something like that?

 

I did go through a "liberal Christian" stage that lasted for quite a while, but in the end, I found it was like trying to believe in Santa Claus and cherry-picking which reindeer I wanted to believe in.

 

Liberal Christianity to me is like, let's see, I'll believe in Dasher but not Dancer, Prancer but not Vixen, not Comet, or Cupid, but I'll believe in Donner and Blitzen...but not Rudolph, his nose is just way too bright and stupid-looking. Oh, and the naughty/nice list? Forget the naughty kids, Santa doesn't give them coal, he just doesn't bring them anything. (Or if you want to be really liberal, Santa brings even the naughty kids toys.)

[Japedo]

Hello everyone, I just had a thought that has been on my mind for sometime and I wanted to share with everyone here. Feel free to discuss it , disagree with it but please try not to degenerate into personal attacks and flames please. Keep things civil

 

I was thinking back to the time when I was Christian and how the elders in the Church are preaching about the Rapture and disdain for homosexuals and expressing typical "christian behaviors". I remember a sermon about how Christ came and sat down and dine with tax collectors and prostitutes, something that was unthinkable with the old fashioned rabbis and their way of doing things. What Christ did was something truly new and ahead of his times and truly unconventional. He was the first to deconvert from Judaism and in doing so became something new altogether.

 

Christ, Real man (Not a godman but just a man) or Myth either way, he never de-converted from Judaism, he supposedly lived as a Jew and died as one and was laid to rest according to Jewish law. Anyone advocating the destruction of Jewish law was by rites of Jewish law to be killed by the Jewish justice system. This was not the case, the Romans supposedly killed him according to the story.

 

 

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

 

Sayings or No, I can 100% attest that I am NOT a Christian in any sense of the word, I can say it with the same assurance that I'm not a Muslim or Jew.

 

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

Worshiping was around centuries before the beliefs of Christianity, for that fact so were gods. Worship is a taught ritual, the do's and don'ts and all that jazz. I worship nothing, I perhaps hope a higher being exists but I don't know and don't worship it if it does. Respecting human rights and rights of others isn't an act of holiness to me, and In fact I find without religion or dogma people are more apt to treat their fellow humans better differences aside.

[greasemonkey]

Hi Unraveler

 

I won't go "flame" with this; I have a few problems with what you're trying to say, but it mostly falls into symantics. I'll attempt to put together a logical counter point, but since I don't chain myself with a need for always being consistent, it may fall flat. I've been having some really good conversations with my two brothers (also atheist/agnostic) about the theme that I *think* you might be trying to come across with. It's a problem I see with a lot of the folks on the board (mostly newer deconverts); and I see it as being a difficulty in drawing the line between having a "christian worldview" and being "christian." The term "christian worldview" draws a little bit of ire from many folks who have given up christianity mostly because of the current definitions that are being imposed on the term by the current loudest voices from the christian sector. I'm talking about the term from a little bit more of a sideways angle, in how it actually relates a little bit closer to a lot of the habits and customs that have been shaped by many years (centuries) of christian culture

 

Like it or not, most people on our site view the world through "christian colored glasses." This isn't a byproduct of the belief itself, but more from generations of cultural and social morays that have been born from the belief. The "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality is one of the biggies that I get on a soapbox about. The justification of hypocricy is another, and the emphasis on coming up with some sort of "justification" for ones beliefs falls under the same category.

 

Different cultures tend to place emphasis on different aspects of life. A glaring example of this is in how middle eastern culture places an extremely heavy emphasis on "hospitality." I'm sure Islam has a fairly sizable impact on this, but we get into a "chicken or the egg" dillema if we were to say that Islam is a reason for this particular emphasis. Being largely from a desert culture, the importance of this custom in a larger societal context is a little better defined in how it came into being, rather than focusing on a guy who made some "rules" about it. When survival in an inhospitable environment becomes difficult, the "golden rule" would carry a much larger weight than it would in an extremely fertile environment. "Every man for himself" wouldn't be a logical attitude to accept in a hostile environment if the society as a whole were to have any chance of survival.

 

I was thinking back to the time when I was Christian and how the elders in the Church are preaching about the Rapture and disdain for homosexuals and expressing typical "christian behaviors". I remember a sermon about how Christ came and sat down and dine with tax collectors and prostitutes, something that was unthinkable with the old fashioned rabbis and their way of doing things. What Christ did was something truly new and ahead of his times and truly unconventional. He was the first to deconvert from Judaism and in doing so became something new altogether.

 

First of all, you appear to almost be accepting the gospel narratives as stated by this statement. There are a lot of folks who could talk a little bit more heavily from a historical perspective than I, but you seem to be working from a false premise. Primarily, the idea that what Jesus did was "something new altogether" is flawed to the core. Since all of the available information we have on Jesus comes from the christian sector, and so many christian traditions are "borrowed," saying that anything he did was totally "new" is a little bit of an overstatement. Jesus' actual "role" in the religious hierarchy of the day is largely unknown; was he a pharisee himself, or just a prophet? (keep in mind I'm using the definition of "pharisee" in it's original context, not the metaphorical context used today) Jesus (if he even existed) never actually "deconverted" from judaism, at best he only behaved differently than the "norm," and I sincerely doubt he was truly as unique in this aspect as mainstream christianity would have us believe. It was the followers of Jesus who began the process of "deconversion;" I believe it was actually Paul who carried "christianity" to the gentiles.

 

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

 

What I see here is some confusion in symantics; you appear to be confusing "deism" with "Christianity." Most of the other posters have already pointed this out, so I won't spend time on that aspect; only that you appear to be filtering your thoughts through a "christian colored lens" and speaking from a perception of dogma rather than an unfiltered "deistic" outlook.

 

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

Once again, I'm having difficulty with this because of the "filters;" they are on both our parts, and largely just in terminology and personal philosophy. My own philosophy is primarily humanistic in nature, so deistic outlook on morality doesn't tend to hold much water with me. I guess I still filter most of my conceptual "morality" by what could be construed as "christian" values, but as Taph pointed out, they are in actuality probably closer to Buddhist or Confuscian ideals.

 

You appear to consider "good" actions to be a form of worship and/or praise for a diety, whereas I see the same actions as being merely beneficial to my own well-being and to society as a whole. I feel no need to associate the term "holiness" to what I merely consider good sense. If anything, I see mainstream christianity as being largely detrimental to those values as *I* view them because the focus is based on glory for god rather than working towards improvement of the society merely because it NEEDS improvement.

[kal-el]

Hello everyone, I just had a thought that has been on my mind for sometime and I wanted to share with everyone here. Feel free to discuss it , disagree with it but please try not to degenerate into personal attacks and flames please. Keep things civil

 

I was thinking back to the time when I was Christian and how the elders in the Church are preaching about the Rapture and disdain for homosexuals and expressing typical "christian behaviors". I remember a sermon about how Christ came and sat down and dine with tax collectors and prostitutes, something that was unthinkable with the old fashioned rabbis and their way of doing things. What Christ did was something truly new and ahead of his times and truly unconventional. He was the first to deconvert from Judaism and in doing so became something new altogether.

 

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

 

All we did was to worship god in our own ways, through our daily actions as mortals. I do believe god in reality is different from the god of the bible. He does not crave our worship nor does he care about our praising him like all the Christians do on Sunday, although I personally feel it is proper to praise him. Holiness is in our minds and in our hearts and in right action and in what we decide to do everyday will set us apart from others.

 

Well a Christian is a follower or adherent to Jesus' teachings. Whether or not the man existed, is moot, I feel you do not have to come to a direct conclusion about Christ to adhere to his teachings. A Christian follows (so they claim) all the teachings in the bible. When in all truth, if they really followed Jesus, they wouldn't bury their dead relatives, wouldn't worry about tomorrow, sell all their possessions, let people walk all over them, and here's the kicker: if they have faith the size of a mustard seed (I'm guessing that's pretty small) they can move mountains. They can cast out demons, are immune to deadly poisons, and speak in tongues. Most people here, are no longer Christians. I, in fact, am an athiest. And athsism is not a religion at all. It is simply a philosophical point of view, outlook. Theism is not a religion, A-theism is merely the opposite.

[Antlerman]

This set me thinking, what if we think we deconverted from Christianity never really did? What if all we did was to see the world and god in a way less bounded by the parameters of an ancient book and ancient ideas? What if we represent the christians of the future with our unconventional and unbounded minds? The old vanguard and their outlandish and old fashioned thinking must give way to us, the newer generation of christians who choose not believe like they do. Some of us now call ourselves atheist, agnostic and ex christian but as the saying goes "the grace of god will not lead you to where the grace of god cannot keep you".

I actually like the thoughts you are having and understand them somewhat. I've thought and even said on the forums here, that I feel more of a Christian now as an atheist then when I was a Christian. Where I think what you're saying has merit, is if you were to view the early Christian movement as anti religion and pro-spirituality. In this sense you would be viewing the early, fledgling Christian movement that later became the beast we know today, as a group who recognized that strict adherence to religious doctrines and theologies is counter-productive to human spirituality. With that I could relate to that sentiment, but for me I find no use any longer for the mythological symbols of that system as part of my spirituality.

 

As a point of correction, the stories of Jesus never show his character as de-converting from Judaism. It does however have him bucking the system in pursuit of higher ideals that transcend religion. Since I believe that Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was a product from the minds of early Christians (and not a real history), it reveals their attitudes as a movement towards institutional religion. In this sense, then yes, the future of the church's relevance to the world will depend upon it getting past dogma and literalism, and embrace the principles of spiritual ideals that promote life, instead of imprisioning the hearts of the masses as it does today.

[theunraveler]

I strongly suspect that Jesus was an amalgation of various Pagan deities and did not really exist, one way or the other. In short, he was a literary creation. What purpose he was originally created for, we may never know, but the myth has been used throughout history since its creation to control the human populace and keep us in check.

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

 

But I am certain that if something like that does exist, it cannot be the Christian deity. The Christian deity is a cruel tyrant who would torture all of us, yes even you, for all of eternity for not believing literally in him. Why worship something like that?

A christian once told me "so what if god is a tyrant, he has the biggest stick in the universe and if he tell u to jump u can only say 'how high?' "

 

Simply put, what he mean is that it is perfectly ok and acceptable to be a god's ass kisser even if he is cruel

 

But on hindsight there is sense in his statement, assuming God is like this then what are you, me and everybody gonna do?

 

 

 

snipped

Dont worry to point out the flaws in my arguements, it is good to point them out and see what kind of new fallacies I am commiting again

 

 

I actually like the thoughts you are having and understand them somewhat. I've thought and even said on the forums here, that I feel more of a Christian now as an atheist then when I was a Christian. Where I think what you're saying has merit, is if you were to view the early Christian movement as anti religion and pro-spirituality. In this sense you would be viewing the early, fledgling Christian movement that later became the beast we know today, as a group who recognized that strict adherence to religious doctrines and theologies is counter-productive to human spirituality. With that I could relate to that sentiment, but for me I find no use any longer for the mythological symbols of that system as part of my spirituality.

 

I guess we got something in common. The Christians of today is too concerned with "soul saving", doctrines and appearances. They all seem to forget that the bible itself is imperfect but what I think God (if he did inspired the bible) wants us to do is to sift for him through the imperfections of the word. That being said, your interpretations of the word is as good as anyone's.

 

As a point of correction, the stories of Jesus never show his character as de-converting from Judaism. It does however have him bucking the system in pursuit of higher ideals that transcend religion. Since I believe that Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was a product from the minds of early Christians (and not a real history), it reveals their attitudes as a movement towards institutional religion. In this sense, then yes, the future of the church's relevance to the world will depend upon it getting past dogma and literalism, and embrace the principles of spiritual ideals that promote life, instead of imprisioning the hearts of the masses as it does today.

That is so true, but I dont forsee people giving up the old ways anytime soon. But here, this place is always a start.

[Amethyst]

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

[greasemonkey]

snipped

Dont worry to point out the flaws in my arguements, it is good to point them out and see what kind of new fallacies I am commiting again

 

great outlook! I commit logical fallacies on a regular basis myself; I learn more by people pointing them out and considering my viewpoint a little harder to see if it does indeed need some revision.

 

Quite often I do revise; other times I just don't really care that much about being "consistent..." (does that make me the anti-Asimov?)

 

I doubt I'll ever be able to filter my personal philosophies through a "deistic" lens, but please don't ever assume I'm attempting to diminish your views. You make some extremely good observations!

 

BTW: Welcome & nice to have you aboard!

[Mike D]

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

Which actions, the "good" ones? And based on what measure? The Bible? If so, then we're right back to where we started, since the Bible says our "good works" are like filthy rags in the eyes of the lord. The whole premise of the Bible is that God thinks we're all evil (all of us, regardless of what our beliefs are), but he'll cut us some slack and save us if we profess we believe ancient bronze-age mythology written by a bunch of delusional sheepherders is true. But for us, since most of us happen to find stories of talking snakes, magic, virgin births, demons, devils, zombies coming to life, etc. a bit too wild to believe, he'll have no choice but to torture us forever.

 

I understand what you are saying, but personally I just don't see any basis for it....at least based on anything the Bible says...

[Taphophilia]

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

 

I too think Jesus may have existed. as some iternerant messiah wanna be named Jesus, though it's all circumstancial evidence based on the fact that there sprang up so many different sects of ancient Jesus followers. Word of someone got around. What he was, who he was, what he said and did is anyone's guess.

 

Any concrete proof that whoever existed was destroyed in 70AD. I'm just glad there is no proof. I hate to see Fundy's then.

 

Taph

[Amethyst]

I too think Jesus may have existed. as some iternerant messiah wanna be named Jesus, though it's all circumstancial evidence based on the fact that there sprang up so many different sects of ancient Jesus followers. Word of someone got around. What he was, who he was, what he said and did is anyone's guess.

 

Any concrete proof that whoever existed was destroyed in 70AD. I'm just glad there is no proof. I hate to see Fundy's then.

 

Taph

 

Yeah. If he did exist, he wasn't a god, he was just a man. I think if they found proof that he did indeed exist as a man and died and was buried like any normal person, it would shatter the Christian religion. I wouldn't be at all surprised if such proof did exist and is being kept under lock and key somewhere, guarded by the Vatican or something. If that turns out to be true someday, then the Bible is really the ultimate fanfiction. But either way, his character has been fictionalized by others.

[Taphophilia]

 

Yeah. If he did exist, he wasn't a god, he was just a man. I think if they found proof that he did indeed exist as a man and died and was buried like any normal person, it would shatter the Christian religion. I wouldn't be at all surprised if such proof did exist and is being kept under lock and key somewhere, guarded by the Vatican or something. If that turns out to be true someday, then the Bible is really the ultimate fanfiction. But either way, his character has been fictionalized by others.

 

Who knows what's in that Vatican Library. I have heard of them finding ancient texts that no one even knew existed in it.

 

Taph

[theunraveler]

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

Which actions, the "good" ones? And based on what measure? The Bible? If so, then we're right back to where we started, since the Bible says our "good works" are like filthy rags in the eyes of the lord. The whole premise of the Bible is that God thinks we're all evil (all of us, regardless of what our beliefs are), but he'll cut us some slack and save us if we profess we believe ancient bronze-age mythology written by a bunch of delusional sheepherders is true. But for us, since most of us happen to find stories of talking snakes, magic, virgin births, demons, devils, zombies coming to life, etc. a bit too wild to believe, he'll have no choice but to torture us forever.

 

I understand what you are saying, but personally I just don't see any basis for it....at least based on anything the Bible says...

i believe the bible to be imperfect and the verse that our good works are like filthy rags is nothing more than some ancient jews attempt to create an inferiority complex in humanity thereby facilitating the function of jesus as savior.

 

 

 

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

Which actions, the "good" ones? And based on what measure? The Bible? If so, then we're right back to where we started, since the Bible says our "good works" are like filthy rags in the eyes of the lord. The whole premise of the Bible is that God thinks we're all evil (all of us, regardless of what our beliefs are), but he'll cut us some slack and save us if we profess we believe ancient bronze-age mythology written by a bunch of delusional sheepherders is true. But for us, since most of us happen to find stories of talking snakes, magic, virgin births, demons, devils, zombies coming to life, etc. a bit too wild to believe, he'll have no choice but to torture us forever.

 

I understand what you are saying, but personally I just don't see any basis for it....at least based on anything the Bible says...

i believe the bible to be imperfect and the verse that our good works are like filthy rags is nothing more than some ancient jews attempt to create an inferiority complex in humanity thereby facilitating the function of jesus as savior.

 

 

 

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

are u aware of josephus and tacitus? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

 

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

Which actions, the "good" ones? And based on what measure? The Bible? If so, then we're right back to where we started, since the Bible says our "good works" are like filthy rags in the eyes of the lord. The whole premise of the Bible is that God thinks we're all evil (all of us, regardless of what our beliefs are), but he'll cut us some slack and save us if we profess we believe ancient bronze-age mythology written by a bunch of delusional sheepherders is true. But for us, since most of us happen to find stories of talking snakes, magic, virgin births, demons, devils, zombies coming to life, etc. a bit too wild to believe, he'll have no choice but to torture us forever.

 

I understand what you are saying, but personally I just don't see any basis for it....at least based on anything the Bible says...

i believe the bible to be imperfect and the verse that our good works are like filthy rags is nothing more than some ancient jews attempt to create an inferiority complex in humanity thereby facilitating the function of jesus as savior.

 

 

 

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

it does not matter wat u believe in, it is ur actions that sets u apart.

Which actions, the "good" ones? And based on what measure? The Bible? If so, then we're right back to where we started, since the Bible says our "good works" are like filthy rags in the eyes of the lord. The whole premise of the Bible is that God thinks we're all evil (all of us, regardless of what our beliefs are), but he'll cut us some slack and save us if we profess we believe ancient bronze-age mythology written by a bunch of delusional sheepherders is true. But for us, since most of us happen to find stories of talking snakes, magic, virgin births, demons, devils, zombies coming to life, etc. a bit too wild to believe, he'll have no choice but to torture us forever.

 

I understand what you are saying, but personally I just don't see any basis for it....at least based on anything the Bible says...

i believe the bible to be imperfect and the verse that our good works are like filthy rags is nothing more than some ancient jews attempt to create an inferiority complex in humanity thereby facilitating the function of jesus as savior.

 

 

 

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

Which readings were those, exactly? I read quite a bit too and never saw anything to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. There were no birth records for him, for example.

 

[Japedo]

 

 

i believe the bible to be imperfect and the verse that our good works are like filthy rags is nothing more than some ancient jews attempt to create an inferiority complex in humanity thereby facilitating the function of jesus as savior.

 

 

Well there is a Huge difference between what you "believe" and what "is". First of all had you did any Studying on the Jewish Interpretation of Isaiah you would have not been so quick to lay blame Jews of causing some 'inferiority complex'. The Term " Good works are like Filthy rags to god appears No where in the book of Isaiah. (Jewish book YISHEYAH) Christians altered the book of Isaiah to reflect their new testament, there is no such terminology of god equating good deeds with filthy rags in the Jewish teachings. Christians added that to add to their myth of a savior godman and beliefs are more important then works. Jewish life Revolves around doing works and rely upon works more so then beliefs. You have a gross misunderstanding of how the original book of Isaiah as Christ (if he existed) would have studied it. Christianity didn't exist, and to be a good Jew he would have studied the book of Isaiah before it was corrupted and alterd by the Romans.

 

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

As I've said before. David Copperfield does wondrous signs and amazing mind bending feats too, does that make him god? If people attest that they saw him walk thru the great wall of china or make a Boeing 747 disappear does that mean he's to be worshiped? If not, why not? what's the difference?

 

[greasemonkey]

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

dude!

 

you need to do some reading in books that are written in the secular realm. There are a few extrabiblical references to Jesus; all are fairly easily debunked. None were in the lifetime of Jesus (Josephus would have been a little kid when Jesus supposedly died); most came many years later and only proved the religion existed, but not much about the man himself.

 

Here's a good site with all the references you are talking about.

[Amethyst]

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

Do a forum search for them. They've been debunked before.

 

Just because some people believe in something, does not make it true. Do you believe in Allah? A lot of people believe in him, but it doesn't make the Koran true.

 

What about ESP? Lots of people believe in it, but there is no proof that it's real.

 

Many people also believe they have been abducted by UFOs, but their claims don't make it true.

 

Use your brain. You must have one, or else you would not be alive right now.

[Taphophilia]

 

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

 

Flavius Josephus was his name and it was one person. We've debunked this many times. The ONE sentence in his works that mentions Jesus the Chirst isn't original to the writings. It was added in the fourth centruy.

 

Taph

[Taphophilia]

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

 

I have to ask what have you read?

 

The most recent within the last few weeks I have read are:

 

A brief History of God - currently reading it.

Misquoting Jesus -

Lost Christianities - this and the above by Bart Ehrman - I highly recomend they be read.

The Case for Christ - Seriously flawed arguements.

[theunraveler]

 

According to my own readings in my spare time, it seems that a historical Jesus did exist but although whether he is truly son of god or just a man is debatable.

 

 

I have to ask what have you read?

 

The most recent within the last few weeks I have read are:

 

A brief History of God - currently reading it.

Misquoting Jesus -

Lost Christianities - this and the above by Bart Ehrman - I highly recomend they be read.

The Case for Christ - Seriously flawed arguements.

i read the case for christ by lee strobel and there is a page on the net that refutes every point he made. the articles i read regarding jesus was from this guy called josephus who was a historian around the time of jesus and he did mention him in one of his works. although i concede that was 3 yrs ago when i was busy deconverting when i read it and it was off a university webpage which i do not have with my laptop

 

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

dude!

 

you need to do some reading in books that are written in the secular realm. There are a few extrabiblical references to Jesus; all are fairly easily debunked. None were in the lifetime of Jesus (Josephus would have been a little kid when Jesus supposedly died); most came many years later and only proved the religion existed, but not much about the man himself.

 

Here's a good site with all the references you are talking about.

yes i am aware of the fact the josephus wasnt even born when christ supposedly died. but still i quote him becoz he was about as close as to a secular source i could get on jesus

 

 

are u aware of josephus and flavius? if i recall correctly, both of them mentioned jesus in their writings and something about "man from galilee....perform wonderous signs..etc"

 

 

Flavius Josephus was his name and it was one person. We've debunked this many times. The ONE sentence in his works that mentions Jesus the Chirst isn't original to the writings. It was added in the fourth centruy.

 

Taph

yup i meant to say tacitus and josephus...but i stuffed up