The problem of using incorrect language based on religion.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If we get rid of all of the stupid people, we'd have fewer zoonoses to worry about. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 5/15/2020 at 1:36 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The first being that the worst thing we can do during a pandemic is ignore what science (and history) teaches us; but that is exactly what we have done, and are doing now.  In my opinion, this is much easier to do when we allow science (and history) to become politicized.  As I have often said, unfortunately: "Those who do learn from history will still be doomed to repeat it through the stupidity of those who do not."  

 

I really hope that was just a fad during the 21st century teens. And that the politicizing science and history will lose fashion as we move on to new times this coming decade. It's rare that any trend or fad lasts from decade to decade. And this has been a fad, trend, and bandwagon. I wonder what will be next???

 

 

[pantheory]

On 5/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

........ the worst thing we can do during a pandemic is ignore what science (and history) teaches us; but that is exactly what we have done, and are doing now.  In my opinion, this is much easier to do when we allow science (and history) to become politicized.  As I have often said, unfortunately: "Those who do learn from history will still be doomed to repeat it through the stupidity of those who do not."  .................

 

 

The problem the way I see it  is that pandemic-wise we only have been looking at the science of medicine, and even then following the worst case scenarios. There is much more science involved in Covid than what most e are observing and discussing IMO.  The sciences of psychology,  mental health, sociology, economics, etc.as a result of lock-downs and social distancing, have pretty mush all been ignored. The results have hurt all countries that have had lock-downs, which IMO have experienced more damage from these lock-downs than from the deaths from Covid 19.

 

For instance, with lock-downs some people that would otherwise not protest, will do anything just to get out of their houses.  Although police are sometimes brutal and abusive and not for good reason,  this brutality often can involve any race or nationality, not just blacks and Hispanics.

 

As to speech and science decisions based upon ignorance and religion rather than science, in one large recent poll concerning Covid 19 vaccination,  less than half of Americans (48%)  said that they plan to get a vaccination for Covid within the first year after vaccine(s) are available, and some said for religious reasons. This is very similar to the rate that adults annually get flu vaccinations, even when there is  little or no cost to the individual. 

 

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/19/18681930/religion-vaccine-refusal

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

The results have hurt all countries that have had lock-downs, which IMO have experienced more damage from these lock-downs than from the deaths from Covid 19.

 

This is an incorrect comparison IMO. For example in NZ we have effectively stomped out Covid. The economic cost has been costly, and many are saying that 22 deaths (which is the number that died in NZ from Covid) was not worth the economic effects. These kind of statements are short sighted, again IMO.

 

The reason there were only 22 deaths was because lockdown was so successful. If we'd let it run rampant the toll would have been much higher, and I'd suggest the resulting collapse from overloaded hospital systems, staff off sick, and everything else the 'herd immunity' route would involve would be worse that the situation we find ourselves in.

 

How successful a lockdown is can depend on the population. In NZ the public largely saw the common good of not infecting thy neighbour, so apart from a few church's there was very little protesting about 'stealing freedoms'. Compare that to the USA where armed gunman stood at a bar to ensure no one shut down the party, and to other protests of stealing of freedoms.

 

 

Back to the thread topic:

 

I have had another thought about using language within science that confers a religious idea. This time the example was the term "Mitochondrial Eve" which many religious folk jumped on as saying "see science says Eve existed" when it first came out. Again that sort of thing could be avoided by not using religious references. Same with the "God particle".

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Same with the "God particle".

"god particle" was originally said as a joke.  Tongue in cheek, as it were.

[pantheory]

23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

This is an incorrect comparison IMO. For example in NZ we have effectively stomped out Covid. The economic cost has been costly, and many are saying that 22 deaths (which is the number that died in NZ from Covid) was not worth the economic effects. These kind of statements are short sighted, again IMO.

 

The reason there were only 22 deaths was because lockdown was so successful. If we'd let it run rampant the toll would have been much higher, and I'd suggest the resulting collapse from overloaded hospital systems, staff off sick, and everything else the 'herd immunity' route would involve would be worse that the situation we find ourselves in.

 

How successful a lockdown is can depend on the population. In NZ the public largely saw the common good of not infecting thy neighbour, so apart from a few church's there was very little protesting about 'stealing freedoms'. Compare that to the USA where armed gunman stood at a bar to ensure no one shut down the party, and to other protests of stealing of freedoms.

 

 

Back to the thread topic:

 

I have had another thought about using language within science that confers a religious idea. This time the example was the term "Mitochondrial Eve" which many religious folk jumped on as saying "see science says Eve existed" when it first came out. Again that sort of thing could be avoided by not using religious references. Same with the "God particle".

 

 

I did not disagree with the logic of lockdown in general. At the time to some extent, but event more in hindsight, I disagree with the way that it was done and the length of it.  I believe other very important considerations of psychology, sociology, mental health, economics, social unrest, etc. were not seriously considered to the extent they should have been. Everyone of these unfortunate effects have likely cost a great many more non-considered and overall unknown deaths and temporary or permanent damage in the U.S. IMO, a much larger and more diverse population than in NZ, granted, where such considerations would unexpectedly be less than in the US.

[pantheory]

14 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"god particle" was originally said as a joke.  Tongue in cheek, as it were.

 

I read Leon Lederman's interesting book the God Particle. 

In his book Lederman said he wanted to title it  "That God Damned Particle" but his publishers wouldn't allow it

 

The particle has now become known as the Higgs particle, which you probably know was named after one of the physicists that predicted it. Unfortunately IMO I think the whole "discovery" ordeal, and the Standard Model in general, is a disaster. The so-called "Higgs" appeared several time in the large Hadron Collider for several trillions of a second and that was enough for them to claim the god particle's discovery ("the" particle giving mass to all other particles). It could take many decades IMO to undue the countless mistakes within the standard model including this one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

I did not disagree with the logic of lockdown in general. At the time to some extent, but event more in hindsight, I disagree with the way that it was done and the length of it.  I believe other very important considerations of psychology, sociology, mental health, economics, social unrest, etc. were not seriously considered to the extent they should have been. Everyone of these unfortunate effects have likely cost a great many more non-considered and overall unknown deaths and temporary or permanent damage in the U.S. IMO, a much larger and more diverse population than NZ, granted, where such considerations could come to play to a larger extent.

In the US, also, we still very much have this "rugged individualist" mentality that keeps us from being able to think collectively.

[pantheory]

11 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

In the US, also, we still very much have this "rugged individualist" mentality that keeps us from being able to think collectively.

 

Yes, good point, but many or most government and elected officials who made the US and most of the decisions around the world, came out of the climate of academia and generally have little consideration of possibilities outside their own fields of expertise. The lockdown decisions of Covid 19 were generally a medical decision, where such discussions and decisions should have also involved other aspects of academia IMO, since the lock-down effects have cost many other lives and have had a very broad disastrous scope.

 

With tongue in cheek, churches, temples and mosques, for instance, should have been allowed to remain open, maybe a smooth way to deplete their numbers.

[TruthSeeker0]

Some might find this interesting reading in terms of societal comparisons 

https://books.google.ca/books/about/Fairness_and_Freedom.html?id=So1sy5_lBssC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Some might find this interesting reading in terms of societal comparisons 

https://books.google.ca/books/about/Fairness_and_Freedom.html?id=So1sy5_lBssC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

 

After a brief perusal, your link does look like interesting reading.

[Justus]

On 5/13/2020 at 7:12 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

.Of course the Abrahamic religious view is that humans are not animals but are made in the image of god.

On 5/13/2020 at 7:12 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

This view is dangerous because it denies our fundamental reality: Humans are animals.

 

Of course, I presume your fundamental reality is that animals are equal to man and should be entitled to the same rights?  No? then you believe that animals can discriminate against other animals?   You comment strangely sounds like the thoughts of Jeffrey Dahmer, but racist.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Go away, @Justus

[LogicalFallacy]

Again I have a WTF is Justus on about moment.

 

I'm not sure how you get me stating a biological fact of humans being animals to also mean I must assign similar human values to animals?

 

For the record your presumption is wrong. Very wrong. Thanks for trying. Have another shot at it if you'd like.

[sdelsolray]

15 hours ago, Justus said:

 

Of course, I presume your fundamental reality is that animals are equal to man and should be entitled to the same rights?  No? then you believe that animals can discriminate against other animals?   You comment strangely sounds like the thoughts of Jeffrey Dahmer, but racist.

 

A hyperbolic presumption (first sentence) with a side salad of false dichotomy (first and second sentence) followed by a desert of possible projection (last sentence).

[Justus]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:36 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

Again I have a WTF is Justus on about moment.

 

I'm not sure how you get me stating a biological fact of humans being animals to also mean I must assign similar human values to animals?

 

For the record your presumption is wrong. Very wrong. Thanks for trying. Have another shot at it if you'd like.

Then why do you say that the religious view that draws a distinction between man and primates is very dangerous.  

 

I know it is systemic so you don't realize it, but your argument is the same one they used to assign human values to Caucasian* race while denying the same human value to those of the Negro race.     

 

So what biological fact do you use to assign the same human value to Ota Benga below,  to the Caucasian and not the primate in the picture on the video below (Ota Benga is the one holding the primate in his arm)  since we are all 99% genetically equal.  There must be some basis you use to distinguish between human and primates and if not then are you saying one can discern the rights of those who they consider equal based upon their appearance?

 

 

 

 

Note *(I am aware of the fact that the term Caucasian has been redefined to refer only to certain group of white people)

[LogicalFallacy]

On 7/10/2020 at 5:58 AM, Justus said:

Then why do you say that the religious view that draws a distinction between man and primates is very dangerous.  

 

I know it is systemic so you don't realize it, but your argument is the same one they used to assign human values to Caucasian* race while denying the same human value to those of the Negro race.     

 

So what biological fact do you use to assign the same human value to Ota Benga below,  to the Caucasian and not the primate in the picture on the video below (Ota Benga is the one holding the primate in his arm)  since we are all 99% genetically equal.  There must be some basis you use to distinguish between human and primates and if not then are you saying one can discern the rights of those who they consider equal based upon their appearance?

 

 

 

 

Note *(I am aware of the fact that the term Caucasian has been redefined to refer only to certain group of white people)

 

The religious view doesn't simply draw a distinction between human and primate, the religious view has it that we are entirely separate from the animal kingdom. That we are made in God's image after his likeness. That humans have souls and 'animals' don't. It's this view I'm arguing against. Humans belong to the order of primates if one accepts evolution and current classification. To deny this is denying reality which is why I think it is a problem. 

 

 

PS: I haven't used the term "dangerous" unless you can point out that I have, so stop trying your dirty tricks and claiming I'm saying stuff that I'm not saying. This is a dirty little habit of yours that occurs time and again on this forum. I'm used terms like "problem" and "misconception"

 

 

You are trying to say that I'm saying something that I'm not saying and tie that to racism. There's a term to describe that attempt... strawman. 

[midniterider]

Did you know that you can be a primate and also a human being and also a Christian at the same time? It's true. 

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

4 hours ago, midniterider said:

Did you know that you can be a primate and also a human being and also a Christian at the same time? It's true. 

 

So true.

 

Actually need to edit my post I just re read it and realised my point is slightly lost because of imprecise language. This is why one shouldn't hop out of bed and attempt to clarify things with a person intent on building strawmen.

[pantheory]

On 7/10/2020 at 2:12 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So true.

 

Actually need to edit my post I just re read it and realised my point is slightly lost because of imprecise language. This is why one shouldn't hop out of bed and attempt to clarify things with a person intent on building strawmen.

 

LF,  After reading my writings first before posting them, I almost always edit my longer postings the next day or two, sometimes just by changing a couple of words in a sentence. I nearly always find a better way to express my intended meanings.

[LogicalFallacy]

4 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

LF,  After reading my writings first before posting them, I almost always edit my longer postings the next day or two, sometimes just by changing a couple of words in a sentence. I nearly always find a better way to express my intended meanings.

 

Yeah same with me. I'm never satisfied even with a 2nd/3rd draft. I envy the people who can crack out a whole page and be happy with it first time.

[pantheory]

6 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Yeah same with me. I'm never satisfied even with a 2nd/3rd draft. I envy the people who can crack out a whole page and be happy with it first time.

 

me too

[Guest KrysLostInSpace]

It would be simple enough to say the virus jumped over to humans from other animals.