Can I get a second opinion

[Sage]

I came here many months ago seeking advice after having panic attacks due to a crisis of faith. I've done a lot of reading, listening, and self reflection between now and then. I noticed a pattern from hearing many testimonies from my research that there seems to be two types of Chrisitian converts. There's the ones who all of a sudden had this warm fuzzy feeling inside out of nowhere one day which they attributed to Jesus for some reason. Then there are those who were under intense stress not thinking clearly as a result who latched onto anything that promised them relief and Christianity just so happens to be that thing which was there at the right place and time. My story falls under the ones who were under a lot of stress. Here's where I've ran into my problem. After a lot of thought, I'm confident that I was sincere when I became a Christian although I thought I did it for myself at the time but now I'm not so sure. I came across another ex christian who left because he was only a Christian due to the emotional response he had from going to church which was no different than the emotional response he felt at concert he attended. He also pointed out that an emotional response wasn't based on scripture. I've read the whole Bible and still read parts of it from time to time but I can't remember anything like that being in there. So this has to mean that since my conversion was an emotional response resulting from stress that it wasn't valid to begin with since it wasn't based on scripture even though I was sincere about it. Does this make sense and if so, am I correct for thinking this way? I think I want to be done with Christianity for good. It's never made not one lick of sense to me since I was a small child. One reason I joined is that I thought to myself okay maybe I'm wrong because I do agree with some of the basic beliefs. I wanted to give it a fair shot but I didn't want to believe it on just blind faith alone like most of its followers. I wanted to know why I believed it and to be able to defend it. That's when I began researching which was the beginning of the end for me. I read and heard things I'd never known before in the short time I've been a Christian. I learned more about Christianity in about two years than I did all those years before where I was forced to go to church as a child and teenager. I heard arguments from all sides. I had some eureka moments but a big one is where the thought occurred to me from nowhere one day that not only do I not feel any fear of the hell in any other religion but every other denomination said that I was going to hell because I didn't agree with their theology due to an honest misunderstanding on my part which I didn't feel any fear of as well because they could easily be right and me wrong. I thought why should I be afraid and feel sorry and apologize for a simple honest misunderstanding based on the information I was given at the time or lack thereof which is something that happens in everyday life. A Christian told me that their religion would take a lot of stress and anxiety off of me but I came to a hard realization that Christianity has been a huge source if not the main source of my anxiety since I was about six years old and it's something I'll probably have until the day I die. My anxiety was so bad to the point where I couldn't sleep at night without every single light on in my room for many years. I also have breathing problems and panic attacks from time to time as a result. Of course, these aren't the only things that have made me seriously question the legitimacy of Christianity. Another big, big problem I have is I get very angry about this subject. Some days it doesn't cross my mind and I'm fine but then other times it hits me like a brick wall and it's something that not only has me tired but it really scares me as well. Has anyone had this problem and if so, how did you deal with it? I can't really talk to anyone around here because I don't know who I can trust and this is a very sensitive subject where I currently live. So what do you all think, do you think I was ever really a Christian based on the things I pointed out? Another question I have is that when we consider how Christianity played a tremendous role in building western civilization, how many of you believe we are better off today because of that or do you think we would've been better off it had never happened? In other words, would we have the medicine, technology, freedoms, along with all the other things we enjoy in todays world if Christianity had never existed and rose to power? I've been thinking about this a lot lately but I'm still unsure because I don't know if we can ever really know an answer to that. Anyway, that's my rant. I appreciate all insights and thanks for listening!        

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

2 hours ago, WWOAC said:

do you think I was ever really a Christian based on the things I pointed out? Another question I have is that when we consider how Christianity played a tremendous role in building western civilization, how many of you believe we are better off today because of that or do you think we would've been better off it had never happened? In other words, would we have the medicine, technology, freedoms, along with all the other things we enjoy in todays world if Christianity had never existed and rose to power?

I'm glad you're here, @WWOAC. Yes, you were a Christian. If you called yourself a Christian that's what you were. If you are not anymore then that's great! Don't get caught up in the constant goal-post shifting and weaponized delegitimization of people's experiences. They beckon you to do that because it helps them ignore counter-evidence when they delegitimize the experiences and perspectives of anyone who disagrees with them, outright.

 

Christians like to claim ownership of everything, but in reality they robbed most things from other cultures - like components of their own mythic language and story. If you do some research here you'll see countless examples of how Christianity is not unique in the ways that the believers claim it is (I recommend expanding your mythic knowledge by reading scriptures and teachings of other religions). There's a lot of propaganda framing everything culturally "good" as coming from Christianity - it's just cultural narcissism.  

 

Anyways, your questions are valid. Trust your curiosity, your intellect, and your instincts. Don't get bullied by people who make you question your sanity.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You were as christian as anybody else.

[florduh]

Believers usually can't fathom that someone could ever wise up and leave the faith, therefore they must have not been a Christian in the first place! Of course you WERE a Christian, but you learned things and left. Good for you.

 

It's impossible to say how things would be different had Christianity not been the force it was. It did a lot of damage and still does, but perhaps without it we would currently be an Islamic nation. There are just too many variables for us to know what might have happened if things had been different.

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When believers are trying to convert someone, belief is the easiest most simple thing ever. Once you are in, and get experience with different flavors of the faith in different congregations and denominations, you find quite a lot of variation on both how and what to believe. When you talk about deconverting, they claim that you didn't believe just the right way. It is a constant shell-game of "THIS is real Christianity, not THAT". DestinyTurtle said it very well "Don't get caught up in the constant goal-post shifting and weaponized delegitimization of people's experiences."

 

Look at the emotional reactions people had in scriptures, like Zacchaeus who was thrilled that Jesus noticed him, and who announced that he was giving half his wealth to the poor, was going to give back money he had taken (he was a tax gatherer for the Romans and would take extra for himself) and was going to make any wrongs he'd done right. Jesus announced to the crowd that salvation had come to this house, and that this was a true son of Abraham. No fancy words, no mental exercises, no creeds or speaking in tongues, nothing but becoming kind and generous based on listening to what Jesus was saying. So yes, you were a believer, and then saw through the religion. 

 

Personally, I sifted out everything except the kindness and generosity parts. Those make humanity better when we each practice them. Even Jesus made them the only criteria he uses at the throne when he separates the sheep from the goats. Not that I think or believe in any kind of judgment coming or even a judge of my life other than myself, just seeing the goodness that we can embody vs not. 

[Sage]

The fact that there's practically nothing original about Christianity is one of the things I came across during my research and is a factor in why I started seriously questioning it. I've also been reading about other religions as well, particularly Judaism since it's supposedly the origin of Christianity because I wanted to see what the original source says. I'm aware that some things in Judaism aren't original to it either but I have at least seen Jews give credit to the original source when presented with the evidence unlike Christianity. I'm also still trying to figure out my beliefs. The goal - post shifting is another thing I'm tired of because why should I have to ask for forgiveness for not being able to live up to an unrealistic moral standard due to the fact I was born in a way that handicapps me from doing so which was no fault of my own. Christians telling me there's something wrong with me when there's really not or there is something wrong with me because of something else that I have no control over is one of the things that really angers me. It feels like a slap in the face and it takes everything I have to keep my peace when Christians tell me they pray for me because they think there's something wrong with me even though that's not true. The problem I see with emotional reactions is that they can be highly subjective and therefore not based in reality or objective facts.    

[TABA]

Hi @WWOAC and welcome to our community!  You’ve done yourself a favor by becoming a member, so that you can benefit from the experiences of many here who have gone before you on this journey.
 

Yes, you were a Christian.  I’m pretty sure that those believers who now say you were not one never said that before you started questioning things!  There are Bible verses that mention those of us who apostasize, who turn away from the faith, acknowledging the reality that it happens. Other verses deny that apostasy is possible.  As often happens in Christianity, the believer has to reconcile evidently contradictory ideas.  Sometimes the response it to pick one and ignore the other.  And those who choose the claim that salvation cannot be lost have to resort to claiming that we were never real Christians.
 

In any case you are staring to see the many ways in which Christianity and scripture are a mess, and the mental gymnastics required to try and make sense of it.  You are in the process of deconverting - and it really is a process, not a single event.  There are many here in this community who have seen their anxiety levels decline dramatically as they moved through the process.  That’s not what Christians want to believe: that life often gets better when religious faith is rejected.  But we’re here to testify that it often does.  
 

As I said, you’ve helped yourself by joining this community.  A successful and happy deconversion experience is more likely when you have a group of people who have traveled the same path and who can support and encourage you, and who can reassure you that you’re on the right path!

[midniterider]

11 hours ago, WWOAC said:

 So this has to mean that since my conversion was an emotional response resulting from stress that it wasn't valid to begin with since it wasn't based on scripture even though I was sincere about it. Does this make sense and if so, am I correct for thinking this way?

 

Christians that visit here sometimes say we were either never a Christian at all or never a 'true' Christian. Isn't Jesus supposed to be available to latch onto in time of need? I didnt think there was a particular official procedure required to be a real believer other than maybe say the sinner's prayer.

 

 So you went to church? Read the bible? Prayed/sang to Jesus? Loved Jesus? (As much as one can love a permanently silent, never present being) My conclusion is that believers and ex-believers have felt the same way and, behaved the same way and done the same religious things; but the ex-believers began to think differently, while the believers still think the same way. Ex-believers were once believers. 

 

Additionally, Christians like to put all of the responsibility for someone losing their faith on the ex-believer for some odd reason while God strangely has zero responsibility. The weak human being has to lead the way in the 'relationship' while the supposed all powerful God can remain silent and absent. This is absurd. And a defense mechanism so a Christian doesnt have to think about why the almighty God who can do anything, dropped the ball on someone's relationship.

 

11 hours ago, WWOAC said:

 

 So what do you all think, do you think I was ever really a Christian based on the things I pointed out?

 

Another question I have is that when we consider how Christianity played a tremendous role in building western civilization, how many of you believe we are better off today because of that or do you think we would've been better off it had never happened? In other words, would we have the medicine, technology, freedoms, along with all the other things we enjoy in todays world if Christianity had never existed and rose to power?

 

Yes, you were a Christian. 

 

Christians may have played a tremendous role in doing charity work, but I dont think this is because God had something to do with it. My gut tells me that with or without Christianity we would probably live a similar life. I grew up with zero religion and dont really think Christianity has had much effect on medicine or science and certainly not 'freedoms'. Freedom of religion is not a Christian concept, imo. 

 

Anyway, have a good day.

[Geezer]

The famous and never ending Christian litmus test. Are you, were you, a real Christian? What a crock of bullshit. The real purpose of that question is to instill doubt and fear so the individual will give more money, time, and effort to the church as evidence they are real true believers. It’s a con game that never ends because it works. 

[Hierophant]

@WWOAC

 

Welcome to Ex-C, glad to have you with us!

 

As far as the Christian bit goes, and others have stated already, but perhaps not the way I am going to, yes, you were a Christian ~ and that is true because you identified as one. We can be philosophical for a moment and ask the question, "what is a real Christian?" I struggled with this idea for years. How could I know I was saved? How could I know I was being obedient in my orthodoxy and orthopraxy? 30,000 denominations tells me there is not really a clear answer. Even the earliest self-proclaimed Christians believed different things (if you would like some more insight on this, I recommend Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities), and yet, each one called themselves a Christian, in the spirit of they thought they were doing the best they could to adhere to the faith.

 

I also struggled with anxiety as a believer, really bad. I used to start getting nauseous and dry heaving thinking about how absolutely terrible the concept of Hell was. As I have stated elsewhere, leaving religion was the best thing I ever could have done for my mental health. Everyone is different and I cannot say that will be true for you, but the weight that was lifted off of my shoulders was immense. Some of your thought processes reminded me of how I was thinking towards the apex of my deconversion. Instead of adhering to dogma, the wheels start churning because your own experiences and logical workings do not make sense of the pat answers you have heard over the years. As you mentioned, you feel as though you will be judged for emotions or conditions beyond your control, Christians do not know how to deal with that. The Bible does not address mental health issues, if anything, it chalks it up to demonic activity. We could go on a whole tirade about how demons and Satan are just ridiculous characters in light of an all-powerful God.

 

I understand how you are feeling. It seems there is no clear path forward and you are not getting the answers you are looking for. That is exactly where I was a couple years ago. I wanted, no, needed answers, and they were not to be found from anybody in the evangelical realm.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

If you want to see an example of people who are "good" without the christian god, google the HADZA TRIBE in Africa.  And look at the crime and social problem rates of "religious" and non-religious  societies. Christians certainly do not have a corner on goodness.

[alreadyGone]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:39 AM, Weezer said:

"Christians certainly do not have a corner on goodness."

Say it again.