A Question

[kellyb]

I'm a fairly newly deconverted atheist.

I'm wondering what you think you'll all be thinking when you're dieing,

Or if you lost a child, or in really bad, really serious times like that.

Coming from the "All things are good for those" paradigm, I'm thinking the best mantra I have right now is "It is what it is".

Which is ok, but I'm not sure if it will cut it when the S hits the F. (Ha!...like Christianity actually fared a lot better in the tough times!)

 

I've spent my whole life assuming Jesus would be my dieing thought.

In a weird way, I almost wonder if catastrophe might reinvent the Christian upbringing that has royally screwed my mind up for so many years.

When life gets tough, am I going to start seeing what I now know is superstitious nonsense as a little more sensible out of desperation?

 

I became Christian because I was brainwashed. I remained Christian because the thought of not existing scares me and pisses me off.

(and I kept on being brainwashed)

I do want for there to be some higher order in the universe, but I refuse to lie to myself and make my wishes facts in my mind.

 

*Sigh*

I like quantum physics. It implies that there's maybe more going on than we see, and String Theory is pretty and leaves me room for an unspecific hope that maybe, just maybe, there's "more", whatever that means outside of whatever despair I will inevitably find myself in some day.

 

Have any of you worked through anything like this?

[kellyb]

Thanks, Zoe.

I totally hear what you're saying.

Total skeptics are assholes, anyway. I guess I don't need to be the Southern Baptist equivalent in the world of godlessness to feel ok with having a shred of hope.

Coz truely, unknown is unknown. And a lot is unknown, and I trust myself enough to not fall for, say, some weirdo new cult in the wake of christianity.

I can allow myself to wonder and dream and hope on my OWN terms.

 

While allowing myself the room to believe whatever I believe if I feel like it that day, or if I need that hope in dark moments, I'm not necessarily dooming myself to another repeat of my christian past with a different "religion".

 

I really am still smarter than that, even if I loose a few skepticism points.

[kellyb]

 

 

I really am still smarter than that, even if I loose a few skepticism points.

 

hehe.

Lol...like I said, I've already decided that a lot of skeptics are assholes. I love science, but sometimes skeptics defend bad science just coz it's popular science, which they refuse to admit doesn't just automatically make it good science by virtue of being popular, which pisses me off.

 

So I guess I'm not too torn up about not being an A+ student in that little club when it comes down to it.

[AtheistMommy]

 

 

I really am still smarter than that, even if I loose a few skepticism points.

 

hehe.

Lol...like I said, I've already decided that a lot of skeptics are assholes. I love science, but sometimes skeptics defend bad science just coz it's popular science, which they refuse to admit doesn't just automatically make it good science by virtue of being popular, which pisses me off.

 

So I guess I'm not too torn up about not being an A+ student in that little club when it comes down to it.

 

 

When you speak in absolutes, you tend to be wrong a good portion of the time. Remember that next time you call an entire group "assholes."

[AtheistMommy]

(Note: this is a general post)

 

Atheism is not a religion. There is no "set" way to be an Atheist. There are Atheists who believe in ghosts. There are Atheists who believe in superstitions. However, you cannot be an Atheist and believe in gods and goddesses. In fact that is all that makes one an Atheist: the simple lack of belief in gods and goddesses.

 

I think about death all the time. I'm sure one reason is because I know death is the end of life. It means I don't continue on. Or my loved ones don't continue on. I've had 3 deaths in my family in the last five years: Two uncles and my grandmother. No, it's not easy not being able to turn to an imaginary friend and pretend that he/she controls all and everything is going to be peachy. It's not easy having something horrible happen in your life and not be able to pretend that it happened for a reason other than your own fault or nature. It's especially not easy when you've been taught to think that way. One adds more value to life when they have no belief in an afterlife. I'm not immortal.

 

However, I always found the thought of someone else controlling my life and toying with me, horrifying.

 

When I die, I want to be remembered and loved because that is the only immortality that a person truly gets. However, for now, I want to live life honestly. Meaning, I'm not going to go a day without letting those I love know I love them and how much. Meaning, I am going to do what I set out to do, because I don't get a second chance. Meaning, this is life and I'm facing it head on without a crutch.

 

To quote a great philosopher and the name sake of my first child, Epicurus

"Grow accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us, since every good and evil lie in sensation. However, death is the deprivation of sensation. Therefore, correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life enjoyable, not by adding an endless span of time but by taking away the longing for immortality. For there is nothing dreadful in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living. Therefore, foolish is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will cause pain when it arrives but because anticipation of it is painful. What is no trouble when it arrives is an idle worry in anticipation. Death, therefore -- the most dreadful of evils -- is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not present, and whenever death is present, we do not exist. It is nothing either to the living or the dead, since it does not exist for the living, and the dead no longer are."

 

So when you think of life without gods and goddesses, think of life without a sugar coating. Think of life without rose colored glasses. It's life, uncut and raw, but honest. What do I want with me when I die? My family, the people who mean more to me than anything (imaginary or not) in the world.

[futurekid]

I'm wondering what you think you'll all be thinking when you're dieing...

 

I do want for there to be some higher order in the universe, but I refuse to lie to myself and make my wishes facts in my mind.

 

My short answer is that I became an immortalist. If you have a decent internet connection there is an excellent 1 hour and 45 minute documentary that explains a lot on Google Video. The community is over at The Immortality Institute. Very exciting stuff I find it.

 

Now the fact is that I probably will die. However if I can survive the next few thousand years, who's to say what will happen and I want to be around to see it.

[AtheistMommy]

I'm wondering what you think you'll all be thinking when you're dieing...

 

I do want for there to be some higher order in the universe, but I refuse to lie to myself and make my wishes facts in my mind.

 

My short answer is that I became an immortalist. If you have a decent internet connection there is an excellent 1 hour and 45 minute documentary that explains a lot on Google Video. The community is over at The Immortality Institute. Very exciting stuff I find it.

 

Now the fact is that I probably will die. However if I can survive the next few thousand years, who's to say what will happen and I want to be around to see it.

 

I don't think I want to see what happens in the next few thousand years. I just want to live long enough to see my children become productive adults and get to know my grandchildren. : )

[Asimov]

I'm a fairly newly deconverted atheist.

I'm wondering what you think you'll all be thinking when you're dieing,

Or if you lost a child, or in really bad, really serious times like that.

Coming from the "All things are good for those" paradigm, I'm thinking the best mantra I have right now is "It is what it is".

Which is ok, but I'm not sure if it will cut it when the S hits the F. (Ha!...like Christianity actually fared a lot better in the tough times!)

 

I've lost people close to me, and I thought it was a horrible thing to happen...what do you expect me to think?

 

(I realize strictly speaking atheism ISN'T a package deal and there ARE spiritual atheists or atheists who believe in things, just not god...but within atheistic circles, there tends to be a pressure to believe in less and less and require PROOF for everything. And I just don't want to live my life that way.)

 

Uh....no.

 

Lol...like I said, I've already decided that a lot of skeptics are assholes. I love science, but sometimes skeptics defend bad science just coz it's popular science, which they refuse to admit doesn't just automatically make it good science by virtue of being popular, which pisses me off.

 

Like String Theory?

 

Total skeptics are assholes, anyway.

 

So I guess I'm not too torn up about not being an A+ student in that little club when it comes down to it.

 

Well with an attitude like that, you'd fit right in I bet.

[Ouroboros]

Like String Theory?

Or gravitons.

[Japedo]

(Note: this is a general post)

 

 

 

To quote a great philosopher and the name sake of my first child, Epicurus

"Grow accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us, since every good and evil lie in sensation. However, death is the deprivation of sensation. Therefore, correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life enjoyable, not by adding an endless span of time but by taking away the longing for immortality. For there is nothing dreadful in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living. Therefore, foolish is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will cause pain when it arrives but because anticipation of it is painful. What is no trouble when it arrives is an idle worry in anticipation. Death, therefore -- the most dreadful of evils -- is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not present, and whenever death is present, we do not exist. It is nothing either to the living or the dead, since it does not exist for the living, and the dead no longer are."

 

 

 

 

Thank you for such an outstanding post!!

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

I'm wondering what you think you'll all be thinking when you're dieing...

 

I do want for there to be some higher order in the universe, but I refuse to lie to myself and make my wishes facts in my mind.

 

My short answer is that I became an immortalist. If you have a decent internet connection there is an excellent 1 hour and 45 minute documentary that explains a lot on Google Video. The community is over at The Immortality Institute. Very exciting stuff I find it.

 

Now the fact is that I probably will die. However if I can survive the next few thousand years, who's to say what will happen and I want to be around to see it.

 

 

Any group that asks for money to become a member has my full skepticism, labeling yourself should be free, believing in something should be free. What are they going to use that money for? To find the scientific proof of life after death?

[kellyb]

 

When you speak in absolutes, you tend to be wrong a good portion of the time. Remember that next time you call an entire group "assholes."

Yeah, you're right, AM.

To be honest, "skeptic" is the closest thing to an identity I guess I have right now (maybe 'naturalist' as well). Lol...so I was calling myself an asshole, too.

Yeah, labels are bad, but for some reason, I'm just not trancendenatal enough to not need to see myself as some part of movement or culture or something with a lable...it's weird.

I have no idea why I'm like that.

[AtheistMommy]

 

Thank you for such an outstanding post!!

 

 

You're welcome.

 

Yeah, you're right, AM.

To be honest, "skeptic" is the closest thing to an identity I guess I have right now (maybe 'naturalist' as well). Lol...so I was calling myself an asshole, too.

Yeah, labels are bad, but for some reason, I'm just not trancendenatal enough to not need to see myself as some part of movement or culture or something with a lable...it's weird.

I have no idea why I'm like that.

 

 

Exactly. I don't consider myself an "asshole" and I do consider myself being born a skeptic. I don't think you can get any stronger than that.

[kellyb]

I just want to apologize for the asshole comment.

The more I think about it, the more apparent it seems that of course assholes who also happen to be skeptics will be the most vocal, and portray themselves as the only "true" skeptics, or the "best" skeptics.

Duh!

 

Anyway, since this is kind of my opening thread here, I got bored tonight and looked up my atheist outing I posted last year on my "believer" forum.

I no longer feel the need to frame my atheism within the christian model, but I still agree with the mission I started this all with:

Making something from the nothing.

 

"I think it is my Christian duty to become an athiest"

 

Sounds nuts, huh?

Hear me out.

 

I was raised Christian...christian private school, church 3 times a week, yada yada yada.

Well, when I was about 14 I started having issues with fundamentalist theology...little stuff at first, like "If all the wine mentioned in the Bible was really grape juice, then why all the warnings about drunkenness?" and "Who did Adam and Eve's kids marry?"

The Church had clever answers to all these questions, but they all wreaked of bullshit. I started getting into heated debates with my Youth Pastor, and when I'd make a really good point, he'd always fall back on "You're letting the Devil guide your thinking".

It was at that point that I decided they were trying to brainwash me, and I wasn't going to have it.

Yet, I've remained Christian to some extent. I'm at a point in my life, though, where I'm coming to terms with the distinct possibility that I really was brainwashed. I thought I got out, but it was too late.

Now, the people who did this to me...they're the kind of people who taught me that we "shouldn't bother recycling, coz Jesus is going to come back and redeem the earth soon, so it was pointless."

They also said that gays were evil, and Muslims worshiped the devil (which explains why they don't mind killing Arabs).

 

I was brainwashed by a homicidal cult.

I can not, in good conscience, continue to allow anything they taught me to remain part of me. Those people are just too evil on too many levels.

 

I still like Jesus, though. He was a good guy. But what he did, really, was tell his religion to kiss his ass. He made something from nothing.

And that is what I think I should do, too.

 

If God is going to be silent and allow so much suffering in the world, and give me a mind to resent this and assume he might not exist, then it is my duty, in the spirit of Jesus, to make something from nothing.

In a world without meaning or purpose, I will create meaning. In a universe without a plan or destination, I will come up with a plan.

I will not wait on God to end suffering...I will not wait for death to reveal the answers....

I will assume that there is no God to save us. I will work with other humans so we can save ourselves.

[kellyb]

Aaaahh!!!

Coincidence?

 

 

So, earlier tonight I popped into that "believer forum" to C&P that post. That is an old post from July, last response in early September.

 

So, after posting here I pop back in over there to chat with them. At the top of the new posts lists is a new response to that thread, asking me if I believe I belong to the "mystical body of Christ" now!

And that thread was buried, like, 20 pages deep!

 

Now, there's no feature at that forum where members can view what other members are reading. Mods can do that, but the response is from a new member with 20 posts, and none of the Mods are Christian, so I doubt it was a "sock puppet" mod watching me.

BUT---the forum was just sold to a new Admin. who doesn't post much, but seems nice.

It's a V-bulletin forum, so I think maybe the new owner might be the new poster?

Or is it just a weirdo coincidence?

Or am I missing some other possibility?

[Astreja]

Or am I missing some other possibility?

Do you use the same screen name on the other forum? If so, consider this scenario:

 

- Someone lurking at this board recognized you from the other board.

 

- Went back to the other board, dug up your old post, and added the MBoC comment to "give you a sign." (arrgh)

[kellyb]

Or am I missing some other possibility?

Do you use the same screen name on the other forum? If so, consider this scenario:

 

- Someone lurking at this board recognized you from the other board.

 

- Went back to the other board, dug up your old post, and added the MBoC comment to "give you a sign." (arrgh)

 

I though of that (first, actually...I do use the same username everywhere, except one parenting forum, but you could "stalk me" through this post by just putting a few lines into google), but I made the post here at around 10 PM, and the post there was made around 8:30 PM (both central time)...I was lurking and C&Ping over there around 7PM, I think.

 

So, it would have to be a mod's or Admin sock puppet, or pure coincidence, I think. And the mods there all have ISP location viewing power, so they know when users or other mods play sock puppets. (That's allowed over there, as long as it's done in fun/prank spirit).

[♦ nivek ♦]

kellyb...

 

Let me warn you this in advance:

 

I am not the posterbot for a life of concerned care for many things, including health, wealth and well being of self and others around me...

 

Lived a pretty frackin' good lavicious life of self centered greedy boozing, fucking, doping and generally being an a-social pain in the ass.

 

What changed? Dunno, grew up and ot of wanting to be a total pain in the ass, and eventually dumped the skY Sp00k and the h0ly botZ trying me and finding me not to some imaginary standard.

 

Lot more mellow, little more concerned for my fellow and femme friends, and able to look past the head of my, umm, yeah, err, nose, thats it, nose, to be bothered to help where I can.

 

Not living to some *godly standard* has allowed me to do as I damn well please with whom I wish, and when I want..

 

Notice the *I* in all of this? Pretty damn self centered, even if *i* say so..

 

Too bad for those who would force altrusim on me, or compel me to give to those I do not care to do so for.

 

Learning to find a direction that you enjoy and will find to your taste may be a trial that lasts the rest of your life. But whatever happens, *you* are in charge of the things you can and do control.

 

The black robed and suited whoremasters no longer control your future, your pocketbook, or your life.

 

You are no longer a *number*, a sheep to be fleeced.

 

kevin, huge pain in ass, L

[Asimov]

Is there anything here that I have said that wasn't either factual or clearly my opinion?

 

C. within atheistic circles there tends to be pressure to believe in less and less and require proof for everything. (opinion based on my own personal experience with many varied atheists, not just the people here.)

 

I guess I read it wrong...my bad!

[insomniac]

Have any of you worked through anything like this?

 

Im also a noob atheist...and actually that's exactly what I've been pondering lately, but I've come up with a couple things.

 

1. you can't blame god for bad things that will happen

 

2. you will need a way to cope, whether healthy or not....I'll take the not ;-)

 

3. an atheist cant take him/herself as seriously as the xtian always does; when hopeless, fight back in your own way (so to speak, lol)

[kellyb]

Have any of you worked through anything like this?

 

Im also a noob atheist...and actually that's exactly what I've been pondering lately, but I've come up with a couple things.

 

1. you can't blame god for bad things that will happen

 

2. you will need a way to cope, whether healthy or not....I'll take the not ;-)

 

3. an atheist cant take him/herself as seriously as the xtian always does; when hopeless, fight back in your own way (so to speak, lol)

That makes sense.

I was kinda hoping there was some kind of atheist method or something...I dunno...I guess nothing will ever really replace a heaven where your loved ones will meet you (given that they, too, were Christian).

At least I won't have to give them the cold shoulder while they plead with me for just a drop of water from across the great divide.

[insomniac]

Have any of you worked through anything like this?

 

Im also a noob atheist...and actually that's exactly what I've been pondering lately, but I've come up with a couple things.

 

1. you can't blame god for bad things that will happen

 

2. you will need a way to cope, whether healthy or not....I'll take the not ;-)

 

3. an atheist cant take him/herself as seriously as the xtian always does; when hopeless, fight back in your own way (so to speak, lol)

That makes sense.

I was kinda hoping there was some kind of atheist method or something...I dunno...I guess nothing will ever really replace a heaven where your loved ones will meet you (given that they, too, were Christian).

At least I won't have to give them the cold shoulder while they plead with me for just a drop of water from across the great divide.

 

Definitely. I mean, the afterlife is the ultimate form of justice in spite of worldly injustice. Religion hinges on a mindset of fairness-above-all, which gives people a sense of self-righteousness, which leads to self-esteem, comfort, and all that cuddly goodness.

but my parents were never xtian, so if i had stayed xtian, would i have been separated from them by the heaven/hell split? lol---I posted a topic in gen. theology about this actually. I mean, heaven/hell are pretty obscure concepts imho.

[kellyb]

Or am I missing some other possibility?

Do you use the same screen name on the other forum? If so, consider this scenario:

 

- Someone lurking at this board recognized you from the other board.

 

- Went back to the other board, dug up your old post, and added the MBoC comment to "give you a sign." (arrgh)

Oh..I think I might have misunderstood what you meant.

You're saying a lurker here is a new poster there who recognized me when I started posting here, too...

Ok.

That's very plausible. It really is a small internet sometimes.

[AtheistMommy]

I just want to apologize for the asshole comment.

The more I think about it, the more apparent it seems that of course assholes who also happen to be skeptics will be the most vocal, and portray themselves as the only "true" skeptics, or the "best" skeptics.

Duh!

 

Anyway, since this is kind of my opening thread here, I got bored tonight and looked up my atheist outing I posted last year on my "believer" forum.

I no longer feel the need to frame my atheism within the christian model, but I still agree with the mission I started this all with:

Making something from the nothing.

 

"I think it is my Christian duty to become an athiest"

 

Sounds nuts, huh?

Hear me out.

 

I was raised Christian...christian private school, church 3 times a week, yada yada yada.

Well, when I was about 14 I started having issues with fundamentalist theology...little stuff at first, like "If all the wine mentioned in the Bible was really grape juice, then why all the warnings about drunkenness?" and "Who did Adam and Eve's kids marry?"

The Church had clever answers to all these questions, but they all wreaked of bullshit. I started getting into heated debates with my Youth Pastor, and when I'd make a really good point, he'd always fall back on "You're letting the Devil guide your thinking".

It was at that point that I decided they were trying to brainwash me, and I wasn't going to have it.

Yet, I've remained Christian to some extent. I'm at a point in my life, though, where I'm coming to terms with the distinct possibility that I really was brainwashed. I thought I got out, but it was too late.

Now, the people who did this to me...they're the kind of people who taught me that we "shouldn't bother recycling, coz Jesus is going to come back and redeem the earth soon, so it was pointless."

They also said that gays were evil, and Muslims worshiped the devil (which explains why they don't mind killing Arabs).

 

I was brainwashed by a homicidal cult.

I can not, in good conscience, continue to allow anything they taught me to remain part of me. Those people are just too evil on too many levels.

 

I still like Jesus, though. He was a good guy. But what he did, really, was tell his religion to kiss his ass. He made something from nothing.

And that is what I think I should do, too.

 

If God is going to be silent and allow so much suffering in the world, and give me a mind to resent this and assume he might not exist, then it is my duty, in the spirit of Jesus, to make something from nothing.

In a world without meaning or purpose, I will create meaning. In a universe without a plan or destination, I will come up with a plan.

I will not wait on God to end suffering...I will not wait for death to reveal the answers....

I will assume that there is no God to save us. I will work with other humans so we can save ourselves.

 

It kind of sounds like you still believe there is a god. Only, you're mad at him/her. Am I wrong?

Btw, you should read my deconversion story. It's on here somewhere but I wrote something close to it and posted it a few days ago. It's titled "Who am I?" and I believe I posted it under writtings, because it was an essay I wrote for school.

[kellyb]

 

 

 

It kind of sounds like you still believe there is a god. Only, you're mad at him/her. Am I wrong?

Btw, you should read my deconversion story. It's on here somewhere but I wrote something close to it and posted it a few days ago. It's titled "Who am I?" and I believe I posted it under writtings, because it was an essay I wrote for school.

I wrote that almost a year ago.

It was really the first time I put myself and atheism in the same context. I was looking at it as more of a thought experiment at the time.

Now I actually don't believe in god.

 

Where is your deconversion story?