LosingMyReligion Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I remember I had a Marilyn Manson CD and I broke it into little pieces just because people said it was devil music. That CD had some really good songs on it too! The Beautiful Ones is great! I may go out and re-purchase it now that I know I'm not going to hell for listening to a CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcissist Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I hated the fact that if you ever had a real problem, you were then suspect and everyone would clear a wide path around you like you had the plague. ...{clip}... I hated the fact that if you have a tough question that neither the pastor or elders of the church could answer, you were a problem.... I hated how everyone claimed that it was important to know the truth, and then were so fucking LAZY about actually finding it. I mean, they hardly even knew about their own faith, let alone anyone else's. I knew more about early Christianity than the freaking youth pastor, who had gone to seminary to learn that stuff, after only a few months of self-motivated study. I soon realized that everyone at nearly every church in America was just spewing words into the air without actually knowing what they meant, or what significance they might have. Same thing Down Under. My "hates" as well. And these would be the same type of "christians" who would then go and accuse you of not being a "Real Christian ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Not to hijack the thread, but what's wrong with a housewife being submissive and enjoying it? So long as the man always treats her well and genuine love is at the root of all things, why is submissiveness wrong? (I'm not talking about Xianity-enforced concepts of wifely submissiveness or submissiveness enforced through domestic violence or fear, I mean submissiveness in general. And most of the Xian housewives I've ever known are quasi-feminists, so I have a hard time believing that the only thing Xianity encourages is submissive housewives.) Well if that's what you want to do....but I don't want to do that you see. I want to have equal control in the relationship, I don't want to submit. Xtianity encourages that every woman should be submissive. I was invited to the home of one of my pastors back in the day, and gag me with a spoon, his wife does everything that he says to do and the whole family including his wife was afraid of him. I also can't respect those women who are spineless and have no opinions, can't make a decision and everything must be relied on the husband. I don't know, that's just not for me. Why would a woman want to be submissive even in the way that you describe it Varokhar? I just don't understand that. Then again that's the beauty of life, you get to live it how you want to and I get to live it how I want to. I've also honestly never seen a loving submissive relationship t he way that you describe it and frankly if it exists, I want no part of it. No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I used to help with the youth group, and hated how everything seemed geared to raising money for trips. "Carwash for State Youth Convention expenses", "Ski trip Spaghetti fundraiser", "Oh my, the BIG ONE is coming--International Youth Convention! Multiple money-making schemes to come!" We had some kids coming with deep problems, and instead of helping them cope we put them on the Planning Committee. I think the church felt that if they could only get these kids into some type of convention/seminar/break-out session led by a supposed church "professional", they could be "fixed", and come back a good, obedient, gullible zombie that would no longer cause problems. I hated the classism in the church. Kowtowing to conservative, white, suburban/rural middle-class anal-retentives, whose fathers/grandfathers were founders of the church, and whose path you dare not cross. Remember expressions like these? "Oh, we've never done it that way before!"; implying that it, therefore, shouldn't be done. "Remember back when..."; implying that the church past was golden, and those of us wanting change needed to conform to some imagined tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 oh and yeah I don't want to be a housewife either, so shoot me. I saw my mom try to do that for a few years and how my dad treated her and it was miserable. Blech! The man is always in control of decisions and especially money, my mom couldn't take that and they got divorced. Ex-Cog, churches are money sucking machines. Let their fundraisers be damnned!!!!! I'm so immature but bah! Damn them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Well if that's what you want to do....but I don't want to do that you see. That's good - it all comes down to personal choice and people picking partners who best compliment them. There's no right or wrong way to go about it, except to try and force someone to be something they're not. That said, traditional unions of the dominant man and the submissive woman are no more wrong or right than ones with dominant women and submissive men, or both partners in neither category. I just get sick of hearing how it's all got to be one set way and heaven forbid anyone wants something different. Why would a woman want to be submissive even in the way that you describe it Varokhar? Because many women just like it. If they know they are in safe, loving relationships where they won't be treated as second-class citizens or abused or shut out of the decision-making process, etc, many women enjoy letting the guy be in charge. My fiancee is like that - she is very much the submissive type and though she is of course perfectly able to get on by herself, she likes the guy to be the traditional, manly, head of the household type. Which meshes perfectly with what I am like; I'm that loving yet dominant type who likes to be in charge and be the head of the household. Since she and I love each other and we know our hearts are safe with the other person, we fall naturally into "traditional" gender roles and are far from ashamed about it. I know lots of women who are like that in some fashion, and they have fine marriages and relationships. It just goes to prove one point - be honest with yourself and what you are, and only hook up with someone who is both honest with what he or she is, and complements your personality ideally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Varokhar, thanks for explaining your pov. I appreciate that. I'm a little confused though, are you a guy or a girl? Yeah in my case, I don't want the guy to be dominant or submissive. I don't want to be dominant or submissive either, whoever I date or "end up" with, I just want us to make "equal" decisions and both have the say so on things. But I don't want the guy to be the "head of the household." I just don't. I will walk out on a relationship like that. I like "manly" guys too, its just that, heh I'm a very spirited girl and always have been and always will be. Its my personality. One xtian asked me, "then how do you make sure who makes the decisions in the end, if you don't have someone as the lead then you'll have a bad relationship." Not necessarily so, that's what compromise is for, although I'd rather pick someone with similar qualities. You don't want to feel as if you're compromising your quality of life. Anyway I don't believe that there's one way to go about relationships, again. Although the way that you explained submission is also the way that many xtians see christian submission. Anyhow, thanks for not biting my head off even though our povs are quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mostlyharmless Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Thinking I was being watched and judged 24x7. Thinking I was being watched and judged 24x7. Oh, I should've said that's what I hated most about being Christian, in case that wasn't obvious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Varokhar, thanks for explaining your pov. I appreciate that. I'm a little confused though, are you a guy or a girl? I'm a man, baby! Yeah in my case, I don't want the guy to be dominant or submissive. I don't want to be dominant or submissive either, whoever I date or "end up" with, I just want us to make "equal" decisions and both have the say so on things. But I don't want the guy to be the "head of the household." I just don't. I will walk out on a relationship like that. It's good that you're honest with yourself, know what you want, and won't compromise on that. That's the one thing that will save you from another disaster. Me, I like being the man of the house and don't like having to submit every little decision for approval to the missus - I had a very ugly experience like that in my last relationship, where what seemed like a nice girl turned into a domineering control freak. I made the mistake of thinking I could change myself to please her and make her happy. But I could only lie to myself for so long - y'know? I like "manly" guys too, its just that, heh I'm a very spirited girl and always have been and always will be. Its my personality. One xtian asked me, "then how do you make sure who makes the decisions in the end, if you don't have someone as the lead then you'll have a bad relationship." Not necessarily so, that's what compromise is for, although I'd rather pick someone with similar qualities. You don't want to feel as if you're compromising your quality of life. The Xian who asked you that doesn't get that there is more than one way to have a relationship. Then again, said Xian doesn't think that gays can get married or should adopt kids, but that's a different story But choosing someone with the proper qualities that either match or compliment yours is vital. Anyway I don't believe that there's one way to go about relationships, again. Although the way that you explained submission is also the way that many xtians see christian submission. Anyhow, thanks for not biting my head off even though our povs are quite different. No problem - I'm just a harmless little fuzzball Thinking I was being watched and judged 24x7. YES! I may have forgotten to list that, but that always nagged me as a Xian, the feeling that Yahooweh and Jeezus were looking over my shoulder, watching every single thing I did, and highlighting the bad stuff. It was such a relief to finally realize there's none of that stuff going on in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mostlyharmless Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 It was such a relief to finally realize there's none of that stuff going on in reality. I think that has been the greatest boon for me as a non-Xtian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Lanakila thanks for sharing your experience of married life. I had a lot of christian friends both single and married, telling me how "wonderful" submission was and how it supposedly "frees" the woman in the relationship and with the propaganda of James Dobson they almost had me convinced. Somehow I just couldn't swallow that pill and I just knew that I couldn't go down that road. Ugh, no thanks. So thank you for telling us the truth. Now I know some people are into BDSM but this isn't about that. lol. The biggest difference between BDSM and Xian insistance on submissive wives is choice. Within the BDSM community, except for some bad apples, it is all about choice and consent. Xianity has one modle, male as dominant, female as submissive. How a person actaully is is completely ignored, they get away with it because there are some couples it works for, and they are trotted out as examples, and all the beautiful dominant women are made to feel like they are wrong and bad. It's just sad really. Okay now what I hated? a lot of things, a lot of things already mentioned, but one has not. I hated the lip service given to how important, and precious children were. I worked with kids, the pastor was fond of pointing out that the ministry with the biggest budget was the childrens ministry, but try to get anyone, nicluding him, involved. Plus as for the budget, we had expenses, and were expected to do things no other ministry was. Like serve breakfast. (We had 2 services, regular members went to both, church for one, and either serving, or doing a class for the other. Many of my regular kids didn't get breakfast, their parents didn't have time. The church gave us donut holes that the local donut shop gave them for free with our HUGE donut order, but 3 hours with nothing but donut holes??? Then some adults got angry that children were taking whole donuts from the snack table. They were so selfish petty and angry, it PISSED me off, so... I took part of the ministry budget, got an approval from the Pastorr and did a "snack" table for just the kids. I was determined that it would be good and better for them than donut holes. The first week was quite a spread, strawberries, muffins, bannans, some of the adults wandered over. JERKS!) People were always telling my husband and I how wonderful what we did was, they would talk about how more people needed to get involved, but few ever actaully did, and if they got a chance to do ANYTHING else they did. Why? cuz sunday school was a looked down apon crap job that anyone could do. We were sent people who wanted to serve God, but who no other minstry wanted to work with. Yeah kids are SO important the church sends the weird, too old, or too immature to take care of them. Then, I got to hear from these kids, the neglect, or abuse they suffered at the hands of some of the suppossedly upstanding members. Fuck wads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 Not to hijack the thread, but what's wrong with a housewife being submissive and enjoying it? So long as the man always treats her well and genuine love is at the root of all things, why is submissiveness wrong? (I'm not talking about Xianity-enforced concepts of wifely submissiveness or submissiveness enforced through domestic violence or fear, I mean submissiveness in general. And most of the Xian housewives I've ever known are quasi-feminists, so I have a hard time believing that the only thing Xianity encourages is submissive housewives.) What is wrong was it went against both of our personalities, and made me feel completely powerless. The only place I had any control was in the bedroom and that is where I don't want control because I am a sub sexually. The Christian format for how a marriage should work didn't fit either of us and destroyed what love was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 It's good that you're honest with yourself, know what you want, and won't compromise on that. That's the one thing that will save you from another disaster. Me, I like being the man of the house and don't like having to submit every little decision for approval to the missus. V, that's how I feel too. I thought you were a girl because of some other posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 What is wrong was it went against both of our personalities, and made me feel completely powerless. The only place I had any control was in the bedroom and that is where I don't want control because I am a sub sexually. The Christian format for how a marriage should work didn't fit either of us and destroyed what love was there. Ugh - Xianity never has a good format for anything. Xianity is about death, the afterlife, asceticism, and even marriage isn't as good as celibacy. How can that be a good thing to base a marriage concept off of? I know Xianity helped to ruin things between my ex and me. Lucky for it, however, but even for that I'll never forgive the Xian cult, especially since it ruins so many other marriages and relationships. V, that's how I feel too. I thought you were a girl because of some other posts. I wonder if that has anything to do with "I am what I eat"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 In my perfect relationship, HE'S the submissive one. I do remember in my grandparents' and parents' churches, the pastors kinda-sorta lukewarmly supported a woman's submissive role (as in, "I don't really believe this but I'm telling it to you just because they taught me to in seminary"), but it was lost on my grandma. My mom is submissive, but just because she has no self-esteem, mental inferority complex, you know. My dad firmly believes that women are totally inferior to men. But he's a pretty negative agnostic, and his only reason for believing in this inequality amounts to, "Well, come on." when I question him about it. I think he's just a brat spoiled by his mother into thinking he's the greatest thing alive and since she always doted on him, he thought all women were like that. But yeah, he's the kind of asshole that lobbies in arguments for women to be denied the right to drive, etc. Asshole. He'd make a great Pentecostal. I did always feel sorry for those people in church who were single or married, but without children. People always wanted to know why. I think it had less to do with dogma and more to do with simple conservative thinking. The older people couldn't wrap it around their heads that a person could live a full and fulfilling life without a spouse and offspring, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorena Rodriguez Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Emerson, I hated: - Myself for being unable to follow the rules--and for being an uptight self-righteous hypocrite. I prayed to god many times to help me get rid of that, not realizing that it was my beliefs that made me like that. - I hated my fellow christians for being nasty and for demanding so much from me - Having to dress up every Sunday - Missing out on camping trips, hikes, or just being out with friends because I had to be in church - The "perfect," know-it-all women in leadership I could go on forever. Lorena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emerson Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Thanks to all who replied and participated! Keep them coming if you want, I think a lot of us have pent-up bitterness and frustration and its just good to let it all out! Lorena, I love your blog! Keep it going, I don't read too many because of time restraints, and a lot of them are just boring. But I love yours. The Sage, wow its interesting how you came out completely diff from your parents. I don't mean to stereotype but a lot of people turn out like their 'rents. Why do people feel sorry for those who have no children? Its different for sure, but not bad. btw, Sage your posts are great too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Thanks, Emerson. I don't know why people act so strangely around childless people. It's like your not having children and not desiring them is a personal attack on their children, or something. If you told someone who had a dog, that you didn't like dogs, you wouldn't hear, "Oh, but everybody says that! You'll get one soon, you'll see!" Especially for me as a woman, I've actually had one person even say that I needed therapy since I didn't want children! And no, this wasn't some crazed fundie, but a perfectly ordinary girl my age, average in all respects. Well, we were both about fifteen at the time, and she was whining about how much she wanted a baby right now, and how she knew she could take care of it and how wonderful her life would be if it were filled with babies, but still, other than that, she was pretty ordinary. It just amazes me how weird people get when the subject of marriage/children comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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