Wertbag Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 I was reading an online argument between three Christians and was amazed at how they could not agree on almost any point. Of course this devolved into many cries of no true Scotsman, with each absolutely convinced they had the one true answer, able to quote bible passages to prove their points and the others were so obviously wrong they were stunned they would dare call themselves Christians at all. Salvation - Universal, everyone meets God after death. Rubbish, salvation is via belief in Christ only. Incorrect, faith without works is empty. Woman priests - Women should be quiet and not take a position over men. Women shouldn't lead, but teaching is fine. That's outdated, God isn't bigoted, he treats everyone equally. Garden of Eden - Literally true, every word. It can't be, it's just a moral story. You weren't there, you can't know, both are equally possible. Hell - Burning place of pain. God isn't evil, it's just separation from God. It's not separation, you can't live without God, so it's annihilation. I would have loved to see these guys continue on other subjects, they just did such a great job showing how fractured it all is. After thousands of years of debate they haven't reached unity on almost any subject. I've heard apologists say that different denominations disagree on the minor fringe elements, but they all agree on the fundamentals. Yet seeing them arguing it was clear the subjects were the core beliefs. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 13, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted April 13, 2022 Maybe that's why so few of them come to The Den these days; they're too busy arguing amongst themselves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 Hello Wertbag. Thank you for this. Could you please provide a link to this three-way dialogue, so that we can see it for ourselves? Also, it could be immensely helpful for Aibao to read the dialogue too. In these two threads... https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/86219-inexplicable-and-unexplained-possession-phenomenon/ https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/86200-problem-of-hell-main-reason-why-i-consider-christianity/ ...we have been discussing her need to find the one true truth about hell, god, salvation and the bible. If she could see an example where three devoted Christians cannot agree on how to interpret the same words of scripture, that would be a worked example of how it is impossible for the one true interpretation of scripture to be found by her. It might help her realize that there is no one great truth of truths and that all religion is just personal opinion, emotion and feelings. That she is setting an impossible task for herself. Thank you. Walter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted April 13, 2022 Moderator Share Posted April 13, 2022 Wertbag, thanks for starting this topic. Counter-apologists sometimes highlight relatively trivial objections to Christianity but there’s no getting away from the problem you’ve highlighted: a supposedly loving god has completely failed to make even the basics of Christian doctrine clear. That alone makes Christianity not worth exploring further for those who want truth. Of course Christians will try to get around this by saying Satan has sown confusion among believers, but all that does is make Satan look more powerful and competent than their guy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted April 13, 2022 Author Share Posted April 13, 2022 In the early days there were Christian sects with all sorts of competing ideas, from a pantheon of gods to an evil god. The popular version labelled the others as heretical, and as they gained power moved to crush all other versions. You then have the great schism, breaking Catholics and Orthodox into two separate churches, and then the Protestant breakaway which lead to centuries of bloody warfare over whose reading of the old book was the right one. Now you have Protestant groups saying Catholics aren't even Christian, that they believe too many non-biblical things to be following god. While the Catholics point to the Mormons saying those guys believe crazy things. The Mormons point to the snake handlers, who point to those talking in tongues, who point to churches with women/gay priests... And all of them are lead by the same Holy Spirit! I've seen Christians say it was Christians who ended the slave trade, and while there were certainly Christians on that side, it completely ignores the thousands who were in favour of it. The slave traders were Christians, the slave owners were Christians, the politicians making the laws were Christians. Both sides quoted the bible and claimed they were doing Gods work. So even on a subject which by modern standards is cut and dry, Christians couldn't even agree on that. Hell, is there any subject that Christians can agree on? 7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Thank you for this. Could you please provide a link to this three-way dialogue, so that we can see it for ourselves? Sorry, the conversation was in the YouTube comments under one of Frank Turek's videos. It is buried amongst hundreds of others, so I can't easily find the original. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted April 13, 2022 Moderator Share Posted April 13, 2022 55 minutes ago, Wertbag said: Hell, is there any subject that Christians can agree on? No, they can’t even agree on Hell! Is it annihilation or eternal torment? Is it reserved for Satan and his angels or do non-believers like us go there too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 3 hours ago, TABA said: Is it reserved for Satan and his angels or do non-believers like us go there too? I wonder if the CEO has air conditioning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 14, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted April 14, 2022 12 hours ago, Wertbag said: Sorry, the conversation was in the YouTube comments under one of Frank Turek's videos. It is buried amongst hundreds of others, so I can't easily find the original. Might could just post a link to the video, though it would probably need to happen in The Den, given the nature of the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 Sorry, the conversation was in the YouTube comments under one of Frank Turek's videos. It is buried amongst hundreds of others, so I can't easily find the original. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok Wertbag, thanks again for checking. It looks like the RedNeckProf might find a way of bringing this three-way dialogue (battle!) to everyone's attention, in the Den. But even if that doesn't pan out, Aibao can still be referred to this thread, which supports the point made about there being no pure and unadulterated truth about god. That it's all a matter of opinion, feeling and emotionally-driven interpretation. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 Seems appropriate to the topic: https://youtu.be/jFOw9gd9JPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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