Inexplicable and unexplained possession phenomenon

[Aibao]

I have to write about it because it bothers me. I came across this thread while reading a book about Hell. Even if evolution explains so much, even if something is wrong with Genesis, how do we explain paranormal phenomena? Below I want to briefly present the story of a girl from 1953, documented by various newspapers.
Clarita Villanueva was held in a prison cell in Manila, Philippines. In front of the guards, she was tortured and bitten by demons. The press and radio at that time began investigating the matter. 25 people, including the Manila police chief, Colonel Cesaro Lucero, said the case of the demon possession of the girl was plausible. There were tooth marks on her body, wet with saliva, and witnesses said she could not bite herself because they had seen these marks suddenly appear, some said she had been choked by some invisible entity. Doctors, scientists, experts in spirituality and parapsychology tried to help her, but to no avail, only Lester Sumrall (priest? Pastor? Exorcist?) Was allowed to pray over the possessed girl and then the demons left her and she recovered.
Usually I was skeptical about such phenomena, I had a friend with schizophrenia, I know that the brain can imagine things that do not correspond to reality. Therefore, before I decided to publish this post (I do not want to clutter the forum with something that may have already been discussed somewhere) I looked for some information on the Internet, or sometimes it was not a conspiracy or a lie. However, what I found only confirms the case of possession:
http://strangecatholic.weebly.com/

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2020/10/bitten-by-demonic-entities-the-bizarre-case-of-clarita-villanueva/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNwfe8K4pIg&ab_channel=Chills (note! if you are very sensitive and easily freaked out, don't watch it, I couldn't watch it myself)

There are other pages that I will not include anymore, but summarize: someone wanted to investigate whether it was true or fiction, so he looked for information in newspapers published in those years - it turns out that the newspapers confirmed the possession.
How can this be explained if even psychologists and scientists have not found an explanation? and after examination it turned out that the girl is mentally healthy? Have you heard of it before, or can you give me some specific credible sources for research on this topic? If the possession is true, it only confirms the Bible, which scares me anyway, as you know ...

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Aibao said:

I have to write about it because it bothers me. I came across this thread while reading a book about Hell. Even if evolution explains so much, even if something is wrong with Genesis, how do we explain paranormal phenomena? Below I want to briefly present the story of a girl from 1953, documented by various newspapers.
Clarita Villanueva was held in a prison cell in Manila, Philippines. In front of the guards, she was tortured and bitten by demons. The press and radio at that time began investigating the matter. 25 people, including the Manila police chief, Colonel Cesaro Lucero, said the case of the demon possession of the girl was plausible. There were tooth marks on her body, wet with saliva, and witnesses said she could not bite herself because they had seen these marks suddenly appear, some said she had been choked by some invisible entity. Doctors, scientists, experts in spirituality and parapsychology tried to help her, but to no avail, only Lester Sumrall (priest? Pastor? Exorcist?) Was allowed to pray over the possessed girl and then the demons left her and she recovered.
Usually I was skeptical about such phenomena, .........................

 

I will bet God or Satan right here and now, my life and immortal soul and hope that I go to hell,  against a six pack of beer that the paranormal is entirely pure BS. The problem for me will be that if I'm right, there would be no God or Satan to deliver the six pack to me. Too bad I really am thirsty.

 

If it's not physical, and not produced by knowable influences, then its pure BS and not real.  The problem with today's science IMHO is that they also imagine things that really do no exist either based upon misinterpreted experiments. Nothing exists outside the physical and energy realms of the world. Don't let your mind get engulfed or taken over by purely imaged BS ideas. Remember everything in the real world is not only simple, but simple to understand if you read from the right sources of information, or talk to the right people who understand this stuff. Nothing on Earth or anywhere is complicated to understand, period IMO. Humans are simply animals and there is no such things as God, heaven or hell. Man made God(s) in his own image rather than the other way around, in hopes of an afterlife, or his intervention to make our lives and others better here on Earth via prayer -- all of it being pure BS IMO.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@Aibao,

 

Think carefully and closely.  How does one design a test to separate demon possession from mental illness?

 

How does a newspaper "confirm" a possession?  The best they can do is confirm people claim a possession occurred, nothing more.

 

How does a single instance of a claimed phenomenon confirm the totality of the claims of the bible?  Why would the demon possession not just as easily confirm Hindu beliefs or Muslim beliefs?

 

To leave you with some levity, "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining"

[pantheory]

20 hours ago, Krowb said:

@Aibao,

 

  ....                        "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining"

 

unless you promise something kinkier will come from it,  girl   

[florduh]

You try so hard to see any possible scrap of "evidence" that supports a parasitic, dangerous, and already debunked relic of a bullshit religion . . . . . It just makes me sad. Why???

[walterpthefirst]

Aibao,

 

Does inexplicable and unexplained mean real?

 

Does inexplicable and unexplained mean true?

 

Does inexplicable and unexplained mean factual?

 

 

You are treating these things as real and true and factual.

 

Could you please tell me how you have checked and verified that they are real, true and factual?

 

Or is this another case of your fear causing you to believe that these unchecked and unverified things MIGHT be real?

[walterpthefirst]

Aibao,

 

Picking up Florduh's point that you are trying as hard as you can to believe anything that might make Christianity true, let's count the number of hoops you are jumping through to get from these linked articles to you suffering forever in hell.

 

1. 

First off, your linked articles would have to be accurate reportage of real events that actually happened.

 

2.

Then, even if these things did happen, all other possible explanations would have be rigorously checked and tested before being discarded.

 

3.

Next, if we discounted every other possible explanation and concluded that these were real cases of demonic possession, we would then need to investigate what these demons actually are and what they are doing.  Good luck with that.  Getting an incorporeal spirit to agree to be questioned about what it is and what it's motives are would be a good trick.

 

4.

Even if you could question a demon, what guarantee do you have that it would answer any of your questions truthfully?  Your Q & A session with them could well be a waste of your time.

 

5.

Ok, assuming that you get the demon to tell the truth and it confirms that there is a god and this god is the god of the bible, does that therefore mean that you are going to burn forever in hell?

 

6.

Not necessarily.  Even though the bible says that sinners go to hell, true Christian believers cannot agree on how to interpret what this means.  Some Christians believe that sinners are totally destroyed in hell.  Others believe that sinners are purified in hell and eventually enter heaven.  In both of those options you don't get to suffer forever.  In the first you suffer for an instant and then are annihilated and in the second you suffer for as long as it takes for you to be pure enough in god's sight to be fit for heaven.

 

7.

Finally, your worst fears are confirmed and sinners do actually burn forever in hell.

 

 

Do you see how you are jumping straight to number 7 without even considering any of the previous six steps that are needed to make 7 true?

 

And you are doing so on the basis that something you cannot check or test or verify might be true?

 

Do you do this for everything you read about hell?

 

That is, believe it is true, just because you read it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wertbag]

15 hours ago, Aibao said:

Have you heard of it before, or can you give me some specific credible sources for research on this topic?

 

Firstly the article you linked to includes the caveat "but this is part of the problem with it. Over the years the story has been added to and sensationalized to the point that it is difficult to parse out what might be true and what is not.  The original report given by Sumrall, which is where most of the available information comes from... is unclear how much of his account is even true or not.   Even the newspaper reports all add different, sometimes conflicting details... so we are left to wonder just where fantasy ends and reality begins".  So unreliable, sensationalized and including some third hand reports, none of which should give confidence in what you are reading.

 

In the majority of cases of unexplained wounds (stigmata or possession being the two most claimed), it turns out they are self inflicted, but often the person doesn't even realize or remember doing so.  Digging your fingernails into your arm will leave a semi-circle of imprints which to the untrained eye can look like teeth marks, but of course the reported wounds to her arms and hands could be self inflicted bites too.

 

Then there is the question of financial incentives.  One of the first questions you should ask yourself is who stands to profit from this story?  The priest wrote a book and sold millions of copies by making it a sensational story of possession.  The news media are looking for views, so any headline that can pull in viewers is good for their bottom line. The movie dramatizes the events to make them more appealing to the ticket buying public. The girl herself went from a nobody off the street to a star with financial kickbacks.  It was to almost everyone's benefit to lie about the events.  Once you see the potential motivation it casts doubt on all of their testimony.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 hours ago, Aibao said:

The press and radio at that time began investigating the matter. 25 people, including the Manila police chief, Colonel Cesaro Lucero, said the case of the demon possession of the girl was plausible. There were tooth marks on her body, wet with saliva, and witnesses said she could not bite herself because they had seen these marks suddenly appear, some said she had been choked by some invisible entity. Doctors, scientists, experts in spirituality and parapsychology tried to help her, but to no avail, only Lester Sumrall (priest? Pastor? Exorcist?) Was allowed to pray over the possessed girl and then the demons left her and she recovered.

Pretending for a moment that hell is real and Satan's goal is to capture as many souls as possible, how does this "possession" scenario help him do that?  It seems to me more likely that someone raving and foaming at the mouth and carrying on would be more likely to drive onlookers to jesus out of fear and terror than to satan.  So, how does the devil help his case by possessing people?  If I were the devil (and some say I am), I'd be more interested in getting people addicted to heroin or alcohol and taking their anger out on their kids.  I mean, why would I wait to torture people in hell when they die if I can make their lives a living hell on earth?

 

Possession makes no realistic sense; and even less cosmic sense.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Aibao, please see a mental health professional ASAP, or your regular Doctor if the others aren't available.  If you don't, someone locally may eventually require you to do so.

[Aibao]

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

Aibao, please see a mental health professional ASAP, or your regular Doctor if the others aren't available.  If you don't, someone locally may eventually require you to do so.

Thanks for the tip, but are you implying that I am mentally ill? Maybe I'm too naive to ask such strange questions and have such strange dilemmas. Really none of you had such problems? If not, then there must be something wrong with me. Despite this, I cannot consult a psychologist or psychiatrist. I don't know how it works in America, but here you can often hear something like "don't make a problem out of nothing" - the whole tip at a glance. I do not need it. I would also like to add that Poland is a Catholic country and even if the psychologist is not so-called To the "believer" he will say that he believes in some force (some impersonal god?), and after death there must be something. How do I know that? I've already been to a psychologist. Long time before I came here to this forum. I just want to know how to refute the theistic arguments and find rational explanations for the things believers mention. I finally want to understand that I am wrong. I want to stop being afraid if there is really no such need. And finally find out why, since it's all so irrational and constantly debunked, are there still people who profess Christianity?

 

to everyone: If there is something disturbing and abnormal in me, tell me (but the psychologist is out of the way, I've done it many times)

[midniterider]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:34 AM, Aibao said:

I have to write about it because it bothers me. I came across this thread while reading a book about Hell. Even if evolution explains so much, even if something is wrong with Genesis, how do we explain paranormal phenomena?

 

How do you explain paranormal phenomena that you have personally experienced? Or that some article(s) claim is true? 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Aibao said:

 I just want to know how to refute the theistic arguments and find rational explanations for the things believers mention. I finally want to understand that I am wrong. I want to stop being afraid if there is really no such need. And finally find out why, since it's all so irrational and constantly debunked, are there still people who profess Christianity?

 

to everyone: If there is something disturbing and abnormal in me, tell me (but the psychologist is out of the way, I've done it many times)

 

One way to refute theistic arguments is to ask to see evidence of their reality. And someone will provide a nonsense reason about why there is no evidence for it. 

Believers make up baloney explanations in order that they may keep believing other baloney that makes them feel good. It's still baloney. Even if they feel strongly about it.

 

People want something to be real because it gives them a sense of hope. Emotions sway people more than rational thinking. Christianity is a mind virus that is easily replicated because people aren't all that rational and has it has many self-preservation mechanisms like the fear of Hell that prevent people from leaving it. It uses negative emotions and feelings of worthlessness (without the Lord) to keep you coming back to church. Families raise their kids as Christians, instilling the baloney into children from birth. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

Dean Radin PhD specializes in PSI phenomenon. They construct tests to try and see what if any of these things can be confirmed as statistically higher than chance. I've read his book, "Real Magic."

 

What it all boils down to is that 1) there are some instances of people with unexplainable abilities but 2) those abilities cannot be separated apart from the persons own consciousness. When something spooky happens, people doing it with their own minds cannot be ruled out and is essentially the simplest explanation. 

 

What you're describing is a type of "Theurgy." And theurgy is explainable through the minds ability to manipulate.

 

So, it's never the case that no alternative explanation exists. And that being the case, it has everything to do with Genesis being false as first premise of investigation into these paranormal issues. The bible is wrong right from the outset. So that explanation doesn't even work. It's not on the table. Then you have to start looking elsewhere. When you start looking elsewhere, you come up on the explanation that none of its real and all just made up, or else there is something going on but it's not at all what people think it is. 

 

I'm just trying to show you how people who understand the implication of the bible being wrong from the outset often approach spooky or paranormal issues. Aliens, UFO's, and anything odd or seemingly unexplained. There is always explanations and they vary. It's never a situation where something spooky = the bible's true even though it's demonstrably false from the outset. The bible is false by way of clear irrefutable demonstration, at least some spooky things seem to have some truth to them, some of the time, but they have nothing to do with the religion of christianity and exist apart from the existence of that particular religion. And they exist apart from any religion. 

 

Likely because they are mind issues at the very bottom, IMO. As long as Mind exists, there will always be spooky issues afoot accompanying Mind. They did an experiment with voodoo dolls that seemed to work. It disturbed the scientists so they stopped doing the controlled testing. But even that was covered under the explanation of Mind and Consciousness. That explanation is inescapable. And can easily trump the religious ones. 

 

That makes for three primary points of consideration. 

 

Religion

Skepticism

Mind

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:00 PM, Aibao said:

 I've already been to a psychologist. Long time before I came here to this forum. I just want to know how to refute the theistic arguments and find rational explanations for the things believers mention.

 

If there is something disturbing and abnormal in me, tell me (but the psychologist is out of the way,

 

You may think it is none of my business, but I am curious. What did the psychologist tell you?

 

We have given you multiple suggestions, but you have had a "yes, but...." answer to all of them.  You have "painted yourself into a corner" as the saying goes, and have given yourself no way out.  

 

I am a retired mental health professional, but cannot diagnose you via internet, but am seeing some things that concern me.  I have given you my suggestions, and you have recieved many good suggestions from others, to which you have given a "yes, but ..." answer.  If we keep giving you suggestions, will we keep getting the same answer?  And will you get any relief?

 

There is likely some medication that will help reduce those overwhelming obsessions.

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

If these instances of alleged possession are "inexplicable", it's because there's no explanation for them yet. Why should we only accept the explanations that come from the Bible and not other religious books? Surely there are other religions that have evil spirits as well as gods that could account for this (if we assume these examples of possession actually happened).

 

I don't know how to explain the first example involving Clarita Villanueva. Maybe the ghost of someone who died in her prison cell was there and decided to take their anger out on the first victim they could find, or maybe the possession story is a fabrication designed to cover up criminal activity that was happening in that prison, with Clarita being the victim of said activity. We have no way of knowing if abuse was taking place in there, or how many people might have been involved in covering up that abuse.

 

Even if some parts of the story are true, we have no way of knowing which parts might have been exaggerated or completely made up. Did those "demonic entities" really blaspheme the god of Christianity, or was that little detail inserted into the story later on, just so Lester Sumrall could claim credit for solving the problem with his religion? Even if there were evil spirits involved here, how do we know they didn't just attack the religion that was the most popular among their audience? If all of the witnesses had believed in the gods of Greek mythology, maybe these "entities" would have claimed to be monsters from Tartarus and cursed the name of Zeus just to get a reaction out of them for giggles.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Good to see you again, @crazyguy123.

[Aibao]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, Weezer said:

 

You may think it is none of my business, but I am curious. What did the psychologist tell you?

 

We have given you multiple suggestions, but you have had a "yes, but...." answer to all of them.  You have "painted yourself into a corner" as the saying goes, and have given yourself no way out.  

 

I am a retired mental health professional, but cannot diagnose you via internet, but am seeing some things that concern me.  I have given you my suggestions, and you have recieved many good suggestions from others, to which you have given a "yes, but ..." answer.  If we keep giving you suggestions, will we keep getting the same answer?  And will you get any relief?

 

There is likely some medication that will help reduce those overwhelming obsessions.

 

Yes, Weezer, I can say, okay and thank you for your concern: the psychologist (I also tell you that she believes in some life after death and in God) suggested books on anxiety to me and suggested that I focus on something else. The problem, however, is that you can't focus on anything. Until I know 100% of the truth or I am not 100% sure that this religion is not true, I will not be at peace. Until I know the refutation of all apologetic arguments, I will not find peace either. It is possible that I have too little knowledge about the opposite arguments and evolution (which is why I collect these materials and start reading them) - as I read somewhere: overcoming fear is not courage, overcoming fear is knowledge. I began to realize that my naivety and fear came from my lack of knowledge. Christians suggest that atheists are ignorant (ignorant of their Christianity), but one might as well suggest believers that they are ignorant of the opposite. Why can't it be that believers and atheists will gather together, do a debate with a detailed analysis of all sides for and against, and agree fairly, without lying and no "but" what is the truth? This is my utopian vision, which may never happen, but councils could somehow organize, and of course Christianity had to come out to the ultimate truth there.
The earliest critic of this religion was Celsus, but his works have unfortunately been destroyed, so the evidence will be in favor of Christians as far as the earliest writings are concerned, and so on.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I don't know what else to say, except to suggest a book, The History of God  by Karen Armstrong.  But perhaps first read a shorter new book, A Little history of Religion.   And there are scores of videos on christian and athiest debates on youtube.  Best wishes!  But remember, no one is going to be able to "prove" anything, one way or the other.  God has to be taken on faith.  YOUR DECISION.

[walterpthefirst]

Nobody can ever know 100% of the truth, Aibao.

 

You are setting an impossible goal for yourself.

 

One that will continue to torture you and one which will ultimately destroy you.

 

Perhaps one way to be at peace is to realize this, Aibao.

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Wow.  Aibao popped on the site today and back off in a hurry.  I hope she makes it through her ordeal okay. 

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, Aibao said:

 Until I know 100% of the truth or I am not 100% sure that this religion is not true, I will not be at peace. Until I know the refutation of all apologetic arguments, I will not find peace either.

 

What percentage of confidence would you say you're at right now that Christianity is false?

 

 

[Moonobserver]

4 hours ago, Aibao said:

Until I know 100% of the truth or I am not 100% sure that this religion is not true, I will not be at peace.

If the Christian Bible says that one sin is enough to send someone to hell, then it's fair to assume that one discrepancy is enough to invalidate the Christian Bible. And the Christian Bible is riddled with discrepancies.

[walterpthefirst]

Aibao,

 

You say that you need to be 100% certain, meaning that you want to have no doubts about hell, god, salvation and the Bible.

 

But what does the Bible itself say about having no doubts and being 100% certain?   Well, I'll tell you.

 

When the prophet Elijah was in the wilderness he doubted god and claimed that he was the only Israelite who didn't worship Baal.  

God told the prophet Moses to speak to a rock so that water for the Israelites would gush out of it, but Moses doubted what god said and instead struck the rock.

John the Baptist, the greatest prophet ever born of a woman had doubts that Jesus was the one sent by god and so he sent his followers to ask Jesus, 'Are you the one?'

The apostle Peter, the rock chosen by Jesus to build the church, had doubts when Jesus told him to walk on the waters of the Sea of Galilee.

Jesus himself, god incarnated in the flesh of a man, had doubts in the garden of Gethsemane, as recorded in the Gospels.

And how many instances of doubt among the disciples do we read in the Gospels? 

How many other characters in the Bible struggled with doubt?

Who, if anyone, had perfect faith and no doubts at all? 

 

 

So, are you trying to do what all these people could not do, Aibao? 

 

To be 100% certain and to have no doubts whatsoever?

 

Given what the Bible says about doubt, are you trying to have NO doubts?

 

 

 

Please answer the three questions above and get back to me.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aibao]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:17 AM, Weezer said:

I don't know what else to say, except to suggest a book, The History of God  by Karen Armstrong.  But perhaps first read a shorter new book, A Little history of Religion.   And there are scores of videos on christian and athiest debates on youtube.  Best wishes!  But remember, no one is going to be able to "prove" anything, one way or the other.  God has to be taken on faith.  YOUR DECISION.

Thank you, Weezer. Thanks for all. I've read "A Little History of Religion" before, but I want to read everything that has the arguments for and against. There is so much of it. After reading this one book I am still confused, because for example in the first book the author mentions that we are not sure what the prophets saw, for example what Moses saw. But I know the apologetic arguments that explain that such visions must be true, and the Jews had rules that verified the truthfulness or falsehood of the prophecy. Well, unless Moses was fictional - I thought so, but here's the argument that the Jews actually believed in Moses as a real person:

https://y-jesus.com/wwrj/8-is-the-bible-true/4/

If anyone sees a mistake in this apologetic statement, please let me know. I want to catch all the mistakes that are possible, and which I may not be able to see because of my fear and self-indoctrination (even my mother began to draw the conclusions that I am getting mentally ill)

[Aibao]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:12 AM, midniterider said:

 

What percentage of confidence would you say you're at right now that Christianity is false?

 

 

My confidence percentage is 3 sometimes 4 sometimes 2 sometimes 7