Inexplicable and unexplained possession phenomenon

[walterpthefirst]

10 hours ago, Aibao said:

On this page, the author has posted an atheist response section, where he describes a strange case of a woman's near death, and his case where, in a time when bowel disease (Crohn's? I don't remember what) was incurable, he prayed and healed immediately, the disease never cured. she returned, and many patients were treated and without results. This is what scares me - because it seems to be proof of my Christianity. How to explain such a hearing of prayer? By chance? Sudden recovery? Then why hasn't it happened to others? It is so tiring because I have no answer and the only answer then is Christianity ...

 

No.  Your are mistaken, Aibao.

 

Not everything you read about Christianity or written by Christians is automatically true because it is Christianity and they are Christians.

 

Let me ask you this.

 

Is everything you read about Islam or written by Muslims automatically untrue because it is Islam and they are Muslims?

 

Please answer this question.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Moonobserver]

On 4/10/2022 at 2:50 PM, Aibao said:

Wow, it calmed me somehow to say that it only takes 1 sin. This means that there is no need to even try to find out the truth, I have been deleted for a long time.
The Bible is full of discrepancies - that's the problem, because what if the discrepancies can be explained ?:

Gerasa or Gadara? Clarification of the contradiction:

https://apologeticspress.org/did-jesus-go-to-gerasa-or-gadara-1434/

 

Here is how apologists explain contradictions in the Bible:

https://apologeticspress.org/bible-contradictionsare-they-real-5249/

 

Explanation of Mark's erroneously cited prophecy:

https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Mark_1.2.php

Jesus' error explained:

https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Mark_2.26.php

 

A  page that explains the contradictions by not understanding the text:

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Apologetics/101contradictions.html

 

These are just some of the many explanations I have come across on the Internet.
I am still wondering if if we understood the Bible, everything would be clear and consistent for us? If we could read in the original languages? There are people who say that the Bible read in Greek is drastically different than the Bible in English (and Polish in my case).

You shouldn't go by a cherrypicked handful of apologist "explanations". That "guilty-until-proven-innocent-applies-to-the-Bible" line is erroneous. That principle is for those accused of wrongdoing, not those making extraordinary claims of miracles or special revelation. Extraordinary claims DO require extraordinary evidence.

 

Let's look at one example of a logically inescapable discrepancy:

 

In Matthew 19, Jesus tells the religious leaders that it's wrong for them to divorce their wives. They ask him why Moses allowed them to present a bill of divorce if it was wrong, and Jesus replies that Moses permitted it "for the hardness of your hearts". Moses allows the bill of divorce in Deuteronomy 24, but look back at Deut. 1:3. Here, it is stated that everything Moses is passing down as law is what he received from Jehovah himself. This means that when Jesus says Moses allowed divorce for the hardness of their hearts, he's actually saying that *Jehovah* allowed divorce for the hardness of their hearts. But if that were the case, why would Jehovah have Moses say in Deut. 13:18 that following everything in the law was the way to do what was right in Jehovah's eyes?

 

The logically inescapable conclusion is that Jesus was wrong about the law.

 

If you look carefully, apologist "explanations" often turn out to create as many problems as they're supposed to solve.

[Aibao]

On 6.05.2022 at 04:28, Wertbag said:

Wydaje się, że cudowne uzdrowienie można podzielić na trzy kategorie; kompletne kłamstwo, naturalnie odzyskane lub źle zrozumiane/zgłoszone. Widziałem doniesienia o ludziach, którzy twierdzą, że ich rak został wyleczony, tylko po to, by umrzeć z tego powodu kilka miesięcy później. Inni pracują z lekarzami, którzy dają leki i pomoc medyczną, ale kiedy choroba mija, twierdzą, że cud, zamiast oklaskiwać lekarzy, którzy im pomogli. Nawet pacjenci z rakiem poddawani chemioterapii będą twierdzić, że zadziałała modlitwa, a nie codzienne leczenie.

Niektórzy ludzie są aktorami, niektórzy są opłacani, niektórzy udają, aby zwrócić na siebie uwagę, podczas gdy inni mają problemy psychiczne. Raz za razem twierdzony cud nie wytrzymuje śledztwa.

Exactly ... but how do I know where is the line between lies and truth and even delusions? Do you know of any examples of cheated miracles given by Christians? (except for people like Benny Hinn or Hin? I don't remember exactly, but these people have already been exposed, but other Christians will say about them: false teachers). Because a miracle that converted someone to this religion (e.g. as I wrote earlier, someone was ill with an incurable disease, prayed and suddenly recovered). And was there anyone who prayed for something and got exactly what he asked for? I read the story of a woman who prayed for shoes (she was poor and suffered in prison for being a Christian). After a while, she got shoes, exactly the same size she wears.

[Aibao]

On 6.05.2022 at 12:34, walterpthefirst said:

 

Nie. Mylisz się, Aibao.

 

Nie wszystko, co czytasz o chrześcijaństwie lub piszesz przez chrześcijan, jest automatycznie prawdziwe, ponieważ to jest chrześcijaństwo, a oni są chrześcijanami.

 

Pozwól, że cię o to zapytam.

 

Czy wszystko, co czytasz o islamie lub piszesz przez muzułmanów, automatycznie jest nieprawdziwe , ponieważ to jest islam, a oni są muzułmanami?

 

Proszę odpowiedzieć na to pytanie.

 

Dziękuję Ci.

 

Waltera.

My answer: no. But when I see that something is written by a Muslim about good / evil, I am reluctant to even interfere with it, as with Catholic books, although I read some). Only Protestant I can read more freely (because when I was in a Protestant church I thought that this is the only truth and there is no other). Maybe that's why. But apart from religious aspects, I do not care whether, for example, a follower of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or an atheist writes about diet / fashion / tourism / science.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Aibao said:

My answer: no. But when I see that something is written by a Muslim about good / evil, I am reluctant to even interfere with it, as with Catholic books, although I read some). Only Protestant I can read more freely (because when I was in a Protestant church I thought that this is the only truth and there is no other). Maybe that's why. But apart from religious aspects, I do not care whether, for example, a follower of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or an atheist writes about diet / fashion / tourism / science.

 

Thank you Aibao.

 

So you believe that Protestant Christianity is true because it's easier for you to read their books and websites.

 

Ok, now let me apply your thinking to my life.

 

I believe that only English language books are true, because that's the language I can read most easily.

 

Which means that I distrust all books in other languages, because I cannot read them.

 

Does that sound like a sensible way for me to decide what is true and what is untrue, Aibao?

 

On the basis of how easily I can read something?

[Aibao]

17 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Dziękuję Aibao.

 

Więc wierzysz, że protestanckie chrześcijaństwo jest prawdą, ponieważ łatwiej jest ci czytać ich książki i strony internetowe.

 

Ok, teraz pozwól, że zastosuję twoje myślenie do mojego życia.

 

Uważam, że prawdziwe są tylko książki w języku angielskim, bo w tym języku czytam najłatwiej.

 

Co oznacza, że nie ufam wszystkim książkom w innych językach, ponieważ nie umiem ich czytać.

 

Czy to brzmi jak rozsądny sposób decydowania, co jest prawdą, a co nieprawdą, Aibao?

 

Na podstawie tego, jak łatwo mogę coś przeczytać?

Generally, I do not know if Protestant Christianity is true - I am afraid it may be.

The example that you gave (based on my choice of that religion) is actually not wise.

The problem, however, is that I would have to research every religion in the world, which may not be enough for my life (besides, I assume that I may die even for a long time: I avoided being hit by a car, but I could have died very easily, avoided running over a tram when I tried take my earrings from the rails and gave up on the last minute, maybe there will be a war in my country and I will die soon), so I have to choose 1 religion quickly to analyze, I can't have all of them. And why exactly Protestant Christianity? From the Protestant side I found out why this is closer to the truth than any other religions:

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/notseegod.html

 

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_christianity_is_not_false.html

 

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_christianity_true.html

 

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/unicorns.html

 

https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/allreligions.html

 

(this is the most important link where the information led me to decide to focus on researching only Christianity)

I know, this website of God and Science again - could anyone else point out more mistakes by the author of this website? I don't know much about evolution or cosmology, so I can't say where he is wrong.

[walterpthefirst]

Take a look at this, Aibao.

 

https://rationalreligion.co.uk/9-scientific-miracles-of-the-quran/

 

Here an Islamic website uses exactly the same scientific data as the GodandScience website.

 

There is a very good reason why different religions use the same science data.

 

That's because science is agnostic and doesn't support any specific religion.

 

Any Muslim, Christian, Sikh or Hindu who claims that science supports ONLY their religion is lying.

 

The truth is science is agnostic and is silent about religious matters.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

[walterpthefirst]

Here are some more examples, Aibao.

 

https://www.radha.name/news/philosophy/intelligent-design-in-a-modern-vedic-context

This is a Hindu website that uses science data to claim that Intelligent Design supports the Hindu religion.

 

https://www.discoversikhism.com/sikhism/beyond_intelligent_design.html

This Sikh website uses science data about quantum mechanics, evolution, gravity and general relativity.

 

https://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/Science_and_Judaism.htm

This Jewish website uses science data about the age of the universe, evolution and general relativity.

 

The reason all of these different religions can use science data is because it doesn't actually support any specific religion.

 

That's because science is agnostic.

[Wertbag]

5 hours ago, Aibao said:

Do you know of any examples of cheated miracles given by Christians?

I've read many reports of scams, lies, actors and false reports.  One stage show had a man with crutches throw them away and walk.  Someone travelled to see the same show in another country, only to see the same man throw his crutches away again.  He was a paid actor who did so everywhere they went.

The woman who said she felt her cancer cured, died from that cancer a few months later.  The woman in the wheelchair who walked, well it turns out she always could, she had back problems that made it painful to walk, but not impossible.  To the crowd it looked miraculous, but in truth she could have done that before the show, and when asked later she confirmed the pain had not been fixed.

There is a funny video of a guy on stage getting touched by the preacher and having a fit as the holy energy hit him.  He stopped to answer his phone...

 

5 hours ago, Aibao said:

I read the story of a woman who prayed for shoes (she was poor and suffered in prison for being a Christian). After a while, she got shoes, exactly the same size she wears.

The most likely answer is that she told someone.  Whether that was her cellmate, her guards, her priest or whatever.  The people that knew what she needed arranged it.  She then gives thanks to God, when in reality it was people being kind.  

Even if it was a random act of kindness, the fact she had average size feet and got average size shoes is not that special.  Its giving praise for the most mundane events, while ignoring the millions who pray for exactly the same thing and get nothing.  The millions who pray for food but starve, pray for medical help that never comes, or pray for them and their family to be safe just before they are killed.  God has failed to help any of those in desperate need, but we are meant to ignore the millions of failures and be impressed by the one success?  A poor lady gets shoes, while millions die from hunger and disease.

[Aibao]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:22 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Take a look at this, Aibao.

 

https://rationalreligion.co.uk/9-scientific-miracles-of-the-quran/

 

Here an Islamic website uses exactly the same scientific data as the GodandScience website.

 

There is a very good reason why different religions use the same science data.

 

That's because science is agnostic and doesn't support any specific religion.

 

Any Muslim, Christian, Sikh or Hindu who claims that science supports ONLY their religion is lying.

 

The truth is science is agnostic and is silent about religious matters.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

When it comes to an Islamic website, for example, another question now arises for me: according to this website, it seems that the Koran contains the Big Bang theory and a description of creation that agrees with today's science - yet it was created much earlier than these theories. So you can see that the Koran does not plagiarize with modern science, but in other words (understandable to people of that time) describes the creation of the world, does it contain the truth? How do you see it?

[Aibao]

And what about the testimonies of the people here:

 

https://www.yestojesus.net/evidence-of-gods-existence.html

 

Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why, for example, others have deep spiritual experiences and others do not? Why cannot others be persuaded to disbelief in spite of the evidence and vice versa? If Christianity is not true then why do people keep converting to this religion? Sorry for the stupid questions but I'm on the brink and don't know where to go ... and I'd like to follow the evidence

[walterpthefirst]

7 minutes ago, Aibao said:

When it comes to an Islamic website, for example, another question now arises for me: according to this website, it seems that the Koran contains the Big Bang theory and a description of creation that agrees with today's science - yet it was created much earlier than these theories. So you can see that the Koran does not plagiarize with modern science, but in other words (understandable to people of that time) describes the creation of the world, does it contain the truth? How do you see it?

 

You are not following, Aibao.

 

This Islamic website and the Christian website GodandScience cannot BOTH be true.

 

Science cannot support BOTH Allah and Jesus.

 

The universe cannot have two creators and two gods that judge, punish or reward us.

 

So, one of these websites must be false.

 

But which one?

 

Do you know?

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Aibao said:

And what about the testimonies of the people here:

 

https://www.yestojesus.net/evidence-of-gods-existence.html

 

Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why, for example, others have deep spiritual experiences and others do not? Why cannot others be persuaded to disbelief in spite of the evidence and vice versa? If Christianity is not true then why do people keep converting to this religion? Sorry for the stupid questions but I'm on the brink and don't know where to go ... and I'd like to follow the evidence

 

So why do you think that this video is evidence when you cannot test or check it for yourself?

 

Does anything that cannot be tested or checked ever qualify as reliable evidence?

 

I'll give you an example, Aibao.

 

I have a tiny pink dragon on my right shoulder, watching me type this message.

 

Can you test or check if this is true?

[Wertbag]

4 hours ago, Aibao said:

When it comes to an Islamic website, for example, another question now arises for me: according to this website, it seems that the Koran contains the Big Bang theory and a description of creation that agrees with today's science

Have you looked at the text claiming to report on the big bang? 

“And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are its expander.” (Quran 51:47)

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

 

That's it.  The word "expander" and the word "joined" being used to mean this vague sentence is related to the big bang theory.  Its cherry picking and wishful thinking, rather than anything clearly stated.

 

4 hours ago, Aibao said:

Why cannot others be persuaded to disbelief in spite of the evidence and vice versa?

People are often emotional, believing what feels right and what they want to be right, rather than what the evidence shows.  You hear people saying evolution or the big bang can't be right "because it doesn't make sense to me".  When you are brought up in a religious family, where everyone tells you its true.  Your parents, elders, siblings and neighbours, all say its the way of the world.  You believe.  Its normal, its accepted, there is no arguement.  It take a lot of work to break a world view and to replace it with a completely different one.  Read the testimonies on here and you'll see many people who struggle for decades to over come the world view they were taught from birth.

 

4 hours ago, Aibao said:

If Christianity is not true then why do people keep converting to this religion?

The numbers of Christians has been decreasing in most of the western world.  But many are still raised in Christian households so come to believe as they are taught.  Muslims teach Islam to their children, Christians teach their children of Jesus and through this pattern we can see religious belief is to a large degree regional.  Kids grow to believe what they are told.  If religion wasn't taught it would cease to exist in a generation.  People have lots of reasons for leaving or returning to religion, but it is usually returning to the one they were raised with.  You also have missionaries working hard to convince the poorly educated of the world that Christianity is the truth.  They have had massive uptake in poor African nations, but what you find is as education increases religiosity drops off.

[walterpthefirst]

Posted Wednesday at 11:39 PM

  On 5/11/2022 at 11:28 PM, Aibao said:

When it comes to an Islamic website, for example, another question now arises for me: according to this website, it seems that the Koran contains the Big Bang theory and a description of creation that agrees with today's science - yet it was created much earlier than these theories. So you can see that the Koran does not plagiarize with modern science, but in other words (understandable to people of that time) describes the creation of the world, does it contain the truth? How do you see it?

 

You are not following, Aibao.

 

This Islamic website and the Christian website GodandScience cannot BOTH be true.

 

Science cannot support BOTH Allah and Jesus.

 

The universe cannot have two creators and two gods that judge, punish or reward us.

 

So, one of these websites must be false.

 

But which one?

 

Do you know?

[walterpthefirst]

Posted Wednesday at 11:43 PM

  On 5/11/2022 at 11:35 PM, Aibao said:

And what about the testimonies of the people here:

 

https://www.yestojesus.net/evidence-of-gods-existence.html

 

Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why, for example, others have deep spiritual experiences and others do not? Why cannot others be persuaded to disbelief in spite of the evidence and vice versa? If Christianity is not true then why do people keep converting to this religion? Sorry for the stupid questions but I'm on the brink and don't know where to go ... and I'd like to follow the evidence

Expand  

 

So why do you think that this video is evidence when you cannot test or check it for yourself?

 

Does anything that cannot be tested or checked ever qualify as reliable evidence?

 

I'll give you an example, Aibao.

 

I have a tiny pink dragon on my right shoulder, watching me type this message.

 

Can you test or check if this is true?

[walterpthefirst]

Did I have a tiny pink dragon watching me type that message to you, Aibao?

 

Please answer.

 

https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-illustration-little-cute-cartoon-sitting-pink-dragon-fantasy-animal-icon-vector-illustration-isolated-white-background-image82829617

[Aibao]

On 5/14/2022 at 6:01 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Did I have a tiny pink dragon watching me type that message to you, Aibao?

 

Please answer.

 

https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-illustration-little-cute-cartoon-sitting-pink-dragon-fantasy-animal-icon-vector-illustration-isolated-white-background-image82829617

Did the tiny pink dragon watch you write back to me? I thought you were joking, but if you seriously ask me, my answer is: I don't know. Maybe so, but it's invisible? Maybe not, because if it is invisible, it is not there? But I'm more interested in them, because I don't know anyone who would believe in the existence of such a dragon, although dragons are popular in art and literature, and even appear in movies - in Poland we have a legend about the Warsaw Dragon.

 

Where do people get these things from? Maybe once large lizards walked around and were given the name "dragon". But was the dragon in the picture watching you? It seems unbelievable to me, unless there is some immaterial world that I don't know about, but at least this dragon won't punish me in hell for not knowing, because I have no other evidence beyond your statement.

 

As silly as I sound, I tried to answer that as best I could.

[DOA]

On 5/11/2022 at 7:35 PM, Aibao said:

And what about the testimonies of the people here:

 

https://www.yestojesus.net/evidence-of-gods-existence.html

 

Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why does this faith give hope to others and hurt others? Why, for example, others have deep spiritual experiences and others do not? Why cannot others be persuaded to disbelief in spite of the evidence and vice versa? If Christianity is not true then why do people keep converting to this religion? Sorry for the stupid questions but I'm on the brink and don't know where to go ... and I'd like to follow the evidence

People are getting out of Christianity in droves.  Too much judgmentalism, too many disagreements, and too much hypocrisy.  Christians have driven me right out of this religion and I'm happier and more at peace staying away from THEM!