Forgeries

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Hey Lions Den Lurkers and Posters,

 

I've mentioned several times during our discussions here about the forgeries found in the bible. One of the first books I read after my deconversion was Bart Ehrmans "Forgery and Counter Forgery". This book opened my eyes that almost half the epistles of Paul were not even written by Paul but later church leaders pushing their own doctrines off as those of Paul. I'm not going to ask that you read the book like I did. But if you want to discuss the subject atleast watch this video where he talks about his findings. 

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Dark Bishop

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm not sure Bart Ehrman actually wrote the book you claim to have read.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Well I did get the name slightly wrong. Its Forgery and counter forgery and I didn't read all the references. But he did write it. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Forgery-Counterforgery-Literary-Christian-Polemics-ebook/dp/B00AX529JM?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=ea627985-200a-444e-b8af-085f199342b5

 

[walterpthefirst]

I'm not sure that Dark Bishop actually wrote the opening message of this thread!  

 

Sorry DB, couldn't resist.

 

 

 

 

We now return control of this thread to you.  Until next week, at the same time, when the control voice will take you to...

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

56 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Well I did get the name slightly wrong. Its Forgery and counter forgery and I didn't read all the references. But he did write it. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Forgery-Counterforgery-Literary-Christian-Polemics-ebook/dp/B00AX529JM?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=ea627985-200a-444e-b8af-085f199342b5

 

Bruh, I was just trolling you.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Bruh, I was just trolling you.

I know that now. Fucking trolls lmao I thought ya really didn't Believe me for a sec. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Back to serious discussion.  I was surprised to learn from Bart that the 4 gospels were not "signed" by whoever wrote them.  Somebody(s) decided later that it was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 hours ago, Weezer said:

Back to serious discussion.  I was surprised to learn from Bart that the 4 gospels were not "signed" by whoever wrote them.  Somebody(s) decided later that it was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.  

I have learned so much from Bart's studies. And if I had known that the accredited authors of the gospels weren't actually the ones that wrote them, and that almost half the epistles of Paul were known forgeries I would have never believed in the first place. I wish this stuff was taught in school. The Christians want the Bible back in school and I agree they should let them have it. and tell the historical truth of the Bible. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Let's talk about the video real quick. If your Christian I really hope you watch this video. Especially if your on the fence right now. There were alot of good questions asked. He even touches on the resurrection a bit. I like his humility when he brings up a young scholar that he brought onto his podcast. I haven't watched the video he mentioned yet. ( I will tho) But he has always took the stance that John was not a forgery because the author is never defined. But this new fellow argues that it is the opposite and Bart admits that he has a lot of evidence to back his findings. To the point that even Bart is questioning his own former stance. 

 

I admire that in Bart. His stance flows and changes with the evidence as it should. As you can see Bart isn't an idiot. He has devoted his life to these studies. And wants to share his knowledge. He even has educational courses he has put together for very reasonable prices. I'm thinking about taking his finding Moses course. 

 

Anyway, back to the point. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence (and even most Christian scholars agree) that there are FORGERIES in the bible. The very bible that is preached in your church every Sunday. He mentioned evidence that the first two chapters of Luke are a forged addition to the original text. These are things that I feel people need to know before devoting their lives to something. Like I just said to @Weezer, I would have never gotten caught up in religion to the point I did, if I had been educated about all this beforehand. This is honestly something that I hope makes it into high-school in the future. Unfortunately, I will never see that day im sure. But I think that day is on the horizon. 

 

It was funny when the islamic man chimed in about debating someone arguing that Jesus didn't die.   They didn't even entertain it did they? A little to much evidence that he was crucified apparently. 

 

Hopefully one of our current Christian members of the group will chime in. I would like to know what they think about Bart's findings. 

 

DB

[Wertbag]

I think it was interesting to hear that we have no idea who most of the authors were, but then even if we could confirm the names on the Gospels were actually correct, then we know so little about the disciples that it wouldn't help us in any way.  Most of the disciples just vanish from history, with only vague rumours as to what became of most of them.  Church tradition says most were martyred, but we have records of 2-3 at the most with the rest just having zero impact after the resurrection.

It feels strange to think these guys saw Jesus perform 30+ miracles, raise from the dead and spend further time with them, before raising to heaven, then they just turned around and said "Oh well, guess that's over.  We should never talk about this ever again" and went back to their old lives.

 

I hadn't really thought about it when reading the mythicist position, just being focused on whether Jesus existed, but if his story was made up or at least exaggerated to be unrecognizable to what actually happened, then who's to say the disciples ever existed as well?  Perhaps the writers wanted the special number 12, or perhaps later writers inserted themselves into the stories for personal fame.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I think it was interesting to hear that we have no idea who most of the authors were, but then even if we could confirm the names on the Gospels were actually correct, then we know so little about the disciples that it wouldn't help us in any way.  Most of the disciples just vanish from history, with only vague rumours as to what became of most of them.  Church tradition says most were martyred, but we have records of 2-3 at the most with the rest just having zero impact after the resurrection.

It feels strange to think these guys saw Jesus perform 30+ miracles, raise from the dead and spend further time with them, before raising to heaven, then they just turned around and said "Oh well, guess that's over.  We should never talk about this ever again" and went back to their old lives.

 

I hadn't really thought about it when reading the mythicist position, just being focused on whether Jesus existed, but if his story was made up or at least exaggerated to be unrecognizable to what actually happened, then who's to say the disciples ever existed as well?  Perhaps the writers wanted the special number 12, or perhaps later writers inserted themselves into the stories for personal fame.

I personally I think that the writer we know as Paul was probably real. There is always the possibility that he made every bit of it up. But after hearing both sides of the argument I really think he was influenced by someone that believed in Jesus and new him. Possibly the one we know as Peter. And at some point he and Peter had a falling out over the doctrine to the gentiles. 

 

Take Paul's testimony of how he was blinded. It seems to me that it is possible that Paul had a severe panic attack that caused him to go blind temporarily. I didn't realize panic attacks did that until my son had a couple about a month ago. If he conversed with early Christians and it clicked that his worship of God was wrong all along. In a way He went through his own deconversion experience. Deconverting from traditional judaism to Christianity. A salvation experience is already intense without deconverting simultaneously. 

 

Again this is all speculation. And things we will never know for sure. But I could see it going down like that. And when finally his vision returned after his panic attack he (like most christians) believed God restored his sight. Or maybe he even had a stroke. My grandmother lost sight when. She had a stroke. And sometimes it returns after some time. 

 

DB