I felt the old emotional pull of faith again this weekend - and I resisted it.

[walterpthefirst]

Over the weekend my wife and I and a friend went to on a guided tour of the conservation work being done to some stained glass windows in a CofE church.

 

These windows were notable because they are considered to be the finest examples of stained glass art by the pre-Raphaelite artist Edward Burne-Jones.   There were four in all, detailing the Nativity, the Crucifixion, Jesus' Ascension and Christ on the Seat of Judgment.  As our guide (the chief conservator) was talking I found myself drifting into a kind of artistic reverie.  I was paying attention to what he was saying, but at the same I felt moved by the beauty of what I was seeing and so began to feel the same old emotional tug of my long-dead faith pulling at me.

 

It took me a moment to realize what was happening.  Then I understood.  These wonderful works of art were designed to play on the heartstrings of believers, stirring up strong feelings and I was beginning to fall under their spell.  I could feel the urge rising within me to (metaphorically) throw myself at the foot of the cross and beg Jesus to forgive me for my sins.  What was happening was that my reason, rationality and logic were in danger of being overwhelmed by a surge of raw, unfettered emotion.  So, as our guide continued I took a moment to take stock.

 

I knew from long years of careful thought, research and analysis that Christianity could not possibly be true.  The bible was not only riven with contradictions but it was also mightily contradicted by the evidence and had no reliable evidence whatsoever to support it.  There could not possibly be a god as described in its pages.  Therefore, what I was feeling was nothing special, nothing divine and nothing aimed specifically at me by the Christian god.  I was simply allowing my emotions to get the better of my judgment.  

 

I concluded that it would be a monumental act of hubris and self-importance on my part to believe that what I had been feeling was any different to what anyone else might feel.  Other people who have left their various religions behind in favour of scepticism, agnosticism and atheism would no doubt get the same feelings from time to time.  The same emotional pull to return to the beliefs they raised in or to which they had once been strongly committed to.  And this realization was key to my rationality breaking the power my emotions were trying to exert over me.

 

If these people, from all these different religions and faiths were feeling what I was feeling, how could I possibly be so arrogant as to claim that my beliefs were true and theirs weren't?

 

Emotion on its own is no reliable guide to truth.  It has to be balanced with reason and supported by independent evidence.  And my rush of beauty-induced emotion therefore wasn't reliable.  It was the opposite.  It was highly unreliable.  It was no more reliable than a Muslim's emotions telling him that his beliefs are true.  No more reliable than the emotions of Jews, Sikhs, Hindus or anyone else's emotions telling them that their beliefs are true and all other are false.   Human emotions do not point to one just singular truth of truths.  Instead, when it comes to emotion, everyone plays on an absolutely level playing field.  Everyone might believe that their emotions are telling them is true - but they would be deceiving themselves.

 

I therefore understood that should not trust what I had been feeling, should not believe it and should not get swept away by it.  After that I was able to enjoy the rest of the guided tour with a settled mind and was able to appreciate the beauty of what I was seeing as simply an expression of human emotion and not any kind of reliable truth.

 

 

Some years ago I attended a concert in a church where Mendelssohn's Elijah was being performed.  When the choir and soloists sang 'He Watching over Israel Slumbers not nor Sleeps' I began to cry like a baby.  Once again I was on a beauty-induced rush of emotions, in a highly religious context.  Perhaps when certain factors align we are more vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated by things which have or had great emotional significance for us?

 

 

I'd be interested to hear if other members of this forum have experienced anything similar, how they reacted and what they thought about these incidents. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

Yeah, I feel this. Emotions do play a big part in keeping people in the faith or even subtly pulling people back in, I feel. I mean, the music. That can also be very effective at emotional priming, especially in large groups. I don't know the name for it, but point is, places of worship have that effect down. The ornate glass windows are just a different way of doing that. Art moves people.

 

There's also the opposite end of this for me, where religious trauma made me feel repulsed rather than drawn to it. Before I joined this forum, I had a period of time where anything Christian-related put me on high alert and made me feel intense bouts of anxiety. Worship music and Bible stuff especially. I would get a worship song stuck in my head, like My Lighthouse or some shit. That one in particular was on loop in my head for the longest time and lemme tell ya I hated it. Still do. Also God's Not Dead. I kid you not we played that like almost every chapel in school. Every time I hear it, I have such a horrible reaction to it; mostly anger lol. You can only hear "God's not dead he's surely alive" so many times before it starts getting to you.

 

When it came to Bible stuff, I still can't pick up a physical Bible without feeling that same awful feeling. I can read verses on here or have someone else read it if it's like an atheist content creator that reads and dissects the Bible or whatever; but I can't do much else. Religious trauma affected me emotionally, but not tugging at my heartstrings or pulling me back in that's for sure

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I often feel a similar pull at the Buddhist temple when the monks and Ms. Professor and everybody are chanting.  Obviously it's not an emotional compulsion to run to the altar and repent, or a sudden need to be warshed clean.  There, it's more of an emotional pull to simply surrender and allow myself to metaphorically embrace something greater and more encompassing.  I also do not see any rational evidence that something greater is actually there; but the emotional exertion certainly is there and feels real.  I'm sure it's all just a part of the experience. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:16 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Perhaps when certain factors align we are more vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated by things which have or had great emotional significance for us?

 

Very true.  That early family, church, societal conditioning (programming) can be extremely influential.  And it can get extremey complicated.  The religious stuff can get coorelated with your early life experience and discipline.  My observation is that the more that fear was involved in your early life, (especailly the fear of abandonment or severe punishment) the more susceptical you are to fear based religion.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

2 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Very true.  That early family, church, societal conditioning (programming) can be extremely influential.  And it can get extremey complicated.  The religious stuff can get coorelated with your early life experience and discipline.  My observation is that the more that fear was involved in your early life, (especailly the fear of abandonment or severe punishment) the more susceptical you are to fear based religion.  

And the DNA you are born with likely plays a role.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:16 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'd be interested to hear if other members of this forum have experienced anything similar, how they reacted and what they thought about these incidents. 

 

There are some church songs that bring up my emotions.

[pantheory]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:16 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Over the weekend my wife and I and a friend went to on a guided tour of the conservation work being done to some stained glass windows in a CofE church.

 

These windows were notable because they are considered to be the finest examples of stained glass art by the pre-Raphaelite artist Edward Burne-Jones.   There were four in all, detailing the Nativity, the Crucifixion, Jesus' Ascension and Christ on the Seat of Judgment.  As our guide (the chief conservator) was talking I found myself drifting into a kind of artistic reverie.  I was paying attention to what he was saying, but at the same I felt moved by the beauty of what I was seeing and so began to feel the same old emotional tug of my long-dead faith pulling at me.

 

It took me a moment to realize what was happening.  Then I understood.  These wonderful works of art were designed to play on the heartstrings of believers, stirring up strong feelings and I was beginning to fall under their spell.  I could feel the urge rising within me to (metaphorically) throw myself at the foot of the cross and beg Jesus to forgive me for my sins.  What was happening was that my reason, rationality and logic were in danger of being overwhelmed by a surge of raw, unfettered emotion.  So, as our guide continued I took a moment to take stock.

 

I knew from long years of careful thought, research and analysis that Christianity could not possibly be true.  The bible was not only riven with contradictions but it was also mightily contradicted by the evidence and had no reliable evidence whatsoever to support it.  There could not possibly be a god as described in its pages.  Therefore, what I was feeling was nothing special, nothing divine and nothing aimed specifically at me by the Christian god.  I was simply allowing my emotions to get the better of my judgment.  

 

I concluded that it would be a monumental act of hubris and self-importance on my part to believe that what I had been feeling was any different to what anyone else might feel.  Other people who have left their various religions behind in favour of scepticism, agnosticism and atheism would no doubt get the same feelings from time to time.  The same emotional pull to return to the beliefs they raised in or to which they had once been strongly committed to.  And this realization was key to my rationality breaking the power my emotions were trying to exert over me.

 

If these people, from all these different religions and faiths were feeling what I was feeling, how could I possibly be so arrogant as to claim that my beliefs were true and theirs weren't?

 

Emotion on its own is no reliable guide to truth.  It has to be balanced with reason and supported by independent evidence.  And my rush of beauty-induced emotion therefore wasn't reliable.  It was the opposite.  It was highly unreliable.  It was no more reliable than a Muslim's emotions telling him that his beliefs are true.  No more reliable than the emotions of Jews, Sikhs, Hindus or anyone else's emotions telling them that their beliefs are true and all other are false.   Human emotions do not point to one just singular truth of truths.  Instead, when it comes to emotion, everyone plays on an absolutely level playing field.  Everyone might believe that their emotions are telling them is true - but they would be deceiving themselves.

 

I therefore understood that should not trust what I had been feeling, should not believe it and should not get swept away by it.  After that I was able to enjoy the rest of the guided tour with a settled mind and was able to appreciate the beauty of what I was seeing as simply an expression of human emotion and not any kind of reliable truth.

 

Some years ago I attended a concert in a church where Mendelssohn's Elijah was being performed.  When the choir and soloists sang 'He Watching over Israel Slumbers not nor Sleeps' I began to cry like a baby.  Once again I was on a beauty-induced rush of emotions, in a highly religious context.  Perhaps when certain factors align we are more vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated by things which have or had great emotional significance for us?

 

I'd be interested to hear if other members of this forum have experienced anything similar, how they reacted and what they thought about these incidents. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

A  big  congrats Walter for the realization that BS is simply BS no matter how it is disguised, dissed, curried,otherwise gussied up or flavored.

[nontheistpilgrim]

On 8/8/2023 at 12:16 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 Perhaps when certain factors align we are more vulnerable to being emotionally manipulated by things which have or had great emotional significance for us?

 

 

I'd be interested to hear if other members of this forum have experienced anything similar, how they reacted and what they thought about these incidents. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I am a little scared. My partner is a believer although more-or-less 'house-bound'. I have persuaded her to go to her church (my old haunt) in her wheelchair next week as the person leading worship is someone we have known and respected for many, many years (and the horrible minister is on holiday!). On holiday next week is the sounds person so there will be no musical accompaniment (they rely on canned music) and no zoom for my partner to watch. I used to play the keyboards for them. Although I haven't touched a piano or organ for several years, how could I not offer to play next week (I still hold a feint glimmer for the fact that music and singing is important to Christians).

I just hope I don't get dragged in. Actually I still have quite a lot of anger and dislike of Christianity so I think I shall survive. But it's a dangerous step, no?

 

[TABA]

Geez, if even a rational, hardened atheist like Walter felt a momentary urge to throw himself at the foot of the cross, what hope do the rest of us poor bastards have to resist being sucked back in….  Seriously though, this is an important topic and I’m glad Walter brought it up.  

I often attend Catholic Mass with my wife.  She knows I don't believe any of it but it makes her happy that I go with her.  But also I do gain something from the experience.  Something close to spiritual, but not exactly.  I have no theistic beliefs whatever now and I even disapprove of theism, as I've mentioned elsewhere.  But it is a beautiful church, very traditional, with soaring arches, domes, beautiful stained glass and an organ.  For me, having grown up in a similar church, and having had a mostly positive experience in the church, or at least not too negative, it feels comforting and familiar.  I imagine many people who had no experience with Christianity would also find it beautiful and peaceful.  As I have found at other non-christian religious sites, such as the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, which I visited when it was a museum but which now, sadly, has been turned back into an active mosque.  

 

I will say that as much as I enjoy and am even moved by the trappings of Catholicism and other "high-church" experiences, I haven't yet felt an urge to throw myself at the foot of the cross, or engage with the Father, Son or Holy Spirit in any way.  Truth be told, I am getting rather bored with the Mass.  I'd prefer to just stop into the church outside of mass times for a few minutes, just to sit and appreciate the beauty and tranquility.  But I get much of the same quasi-spiritual benefit from being outside in nature, especially during my frequent hikes in the woods.  Or listening to good music, secular or religious, or enjoying beautiful art.

 

Obviously, various religious beliefs and practices fill various needs in human beings.  For those of us who have rejected religion, there may or may not be a space that needs to be filled with something else.  Maybe it's just the social aspect, of being around like-minded people regularly.  Maybe it's a philosophy that provides guidance for living life, but without a deity.  Maybe it's a way of coping with our mortality.  Maybe it's a need for ritual, for ceremony.  But we all have emotional needs, and various religions, even if they are also sometimes toxic, have often filled them through the ages.  I am satisfied that human beings can have rich, full lives without any belief in gods.  But it can be tricky to navigate the path away from a god.  One thing's for sure: the decline in belief is not going to stop any time soon, and the more alternatives that are available, the better for everybody.

 

I would be interested in how ex-christians have filled whatever gaps were left after deconverting!  Anyone?

 

[Casualfanboy16]

29 minutes ago, TABA said:

I would be interested in how ex-christians have filled whatever gaps were left after deconverting!  Anyone?

 

After deconverting, (and even before with other problems) I kind of lost myself as a whole. I'm not just filling a gap, but also picking up the broken pieces off the floor and trying to put myself back together.

 

I used to be downright miserable and self-destructive before I joined here. I didn't have many people to relate to or talk to about certain things going on in my life. I didn't see myself as like worthy of anything. I was apathetic to the world because, as I've mentioned before, when I was still a believer eventually I fell into a nihilistic and pessimistic worldview because all I cared about was getting my hands on some eternal reward.

 

After deconverting, I felt even worse for a while. I just kinda was like a leaf blowing in the wind. Didn't care where I ended up. Didn't have much purpose. It's not like I had a divine reward to look forward to anymore.

 

Eventually, I stumbled upon this website. I didn't join right away and just lurked, but I decided to eventually because I wasn't doing well for various reasons and I just needed people to talk with at that point. Couldn't rely on God, church people or even my own family; so I decided to make an account and, well, here I am lol.

 

The gap that's been filled is mainly being filled by this website and now me just getting back into drawing as a hobby. Art gives me purpose. This website gives me the opportunity to engage with people that can relate to my struggles with losing religion and such. I don't feel as alone and down on myself like I once was. If anything, I'm feeling a bit better.

 

(Gonna post art here too in the Creative Works section to show off, so look forward to that. Wish the file size for uploading images was bigger though. I have to compress stuff a lot).

[TABA]

46 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

The gap that's been filled is mainly being filled by this website and now me just getting back into drawing as a hobby. Art gives me purpose.

 

This is good! 

 

I listened to Carl Sagan answering audience questions after giving one of his talks, and somebody asked him "How do we find meaning in life when we no longer believe in god?".  I love the answer he gave: "Do something meaningful!"   Of course that will be different things for different people, but that's cool, we are all different.  Everybody needs something that makes them want to get out of bed in the morning.  It could be family, it could be a career, it could be volunteering, creating art, or even helping people deconvert from christianity!  There is something for everybody.

[Casualfanboy16]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

 

This is good! 

 

I listened to Carl Sagan answering audience questions after giving one of his talks, and somebody asked him "How do we find meaning in life when we no longer believe in god?".  I love the answer he gave: "Do something meaningful!"   Of course that will be different things for different people, but that's cool, we are all different.  Everybody needs something that makes them want to get out of bed in the morning.  It could be family, it could be a career, it could be volunteering, creating art, or even helping people deconvert from christianity!  There is something for everybody.

Yeah! I'm really excited to be getting back into art again (for like the third time lol). Gives me something to do and focus on. I'm really excited to show stuff off here! Still struggling with how exactly I should go about drawing what I want to draw; but it's coming along. I spent a little bit of time this morning screwing around with my tablet just to get used to drawing stuff again. I'm determined to stick with it this time. I've let perfectionism deter me from drawing long enough and I'm not going to let it drag me down again!

[walterpthefirst]

My friends,

 

When I started this thread I hoped that other members would be able to relate to the emotional crisis that almost overwhelmed me recently.  It certainly looks as that's happened and I'm pleased that I seem to have struck a chord.  If I were to express an opinion on the matter I'd say that none of us should be at all ashamed or embarrassed when we experience these 'episodes'.  They say that to err is human.  But to emote is human too.  We have nothing to apologise for.

 

Thinking a little more about the circumstances of my momentary wobble I recall that the church organist was practicing at the time and that there was also a lingering aroma of incense from earlier in the day.  So, unbeknownst to me at the time, all of my senses were under a subtle but powerful emotional assault.  That, combined with the eloquence of the chief conservator, who was waxing lyrical about the beauty of the stained glass windows and their wonderful message of hope and forgiveness, almost proved too much for me!

 

It's only now, after due consideration that I can look back and see how these many factors were combining against me.

 

At the time my rationality was able to reassert itself because I remembered the content of certain recent threads in this forum.  Threads where I was able to show from scripture that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was NOT the loving sacrifice Christianity makes it out to be.  Romans 8 : 20 & 21 and 11 : 32 (do check them out!) clearly tell us that god himself caused Adam and Eve to disobey him and sin and it was also god's will to corrupt his own creation, bringing death to the whole world.  So when Jesus went to the cross to supposedly die for our sins, we have to remember that it was god who caused us all to sin.  So the fault and blame lies with god, not us.  And so we do not need Jesus to die for us!

 

Once I remembered this my sanity and my rationality quickly reasserted themselves.

 

Friends, do not underestimate the way that Christianity deliberately plays on our emotions, tempting us to lower our defences, stop thinking rationally and to just believe!

 

As far as European history is concerned, for many centuries 99% of the populace live out their short, brutal lives in miserable squalor.  The huge cathedrals and churches that were raised above their lowly homes were not only built to the glory of god but also to act as lures and traps for these unwary masses.  These beautiful buildings were adorned with scintillating stained glass windows, elegant and noble-looking statues of the saints and decorations of gold and silver. They were hung with gorgeous tapestries showing bible stories, perfumed with incense, illuminated by the massed light of many candles and they were also filled with ethereal chanting songs, all praising god.

 

All of the beauty and majesty described above was carefully designed to overwhelm the senses of the illiterate populace, showing them an earthly vision of what they could expect to find in heaven - provided they believed!  Heaven was the carrot and Hell the stick that the church used to beat the people into submission and dependency, using emotional coercion to do so.  This kind of coercion using the emotions has a better name. 

 

Today we know it as.. manipulation.

 

Christianity isn't alone in using emotions to manipulate its followers.  No doubt the beautiful songs sung by the cantor in the synagogue have caused many a lapsed Jew to experience the same kind of crisis that I did recently.  And the muezzin's call to pray probably functions in the same way in Islam.  Whichever culture, tradition or faith you are raised in you will no doubt have strong emotional attachments that can reassert themselves whenever you drop your defences.  Religion will seek to exploit your emotions for its own ends.

 

I don't know if I have any advice on how you should defend yourself against the emotion-based attacks that religion makes upon you.  As far as I can see there's no catchall, one-size-fits-all solution or answer.  Each of us is their own person and so what works for me probably won't work for you.  So the best I think I can do here is to commit my thoughts to this thread and hope that they will be of some help to others.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I rather enjoy the emotional pull I feel at the Buddhist temple.  I recognize it for what it is, of course; but I also let it be what it is.  It is a good reminder for me that my emotions, like my thoughts, are not permanent, and only have what power I give them.

[Casualfanboy16]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Friends, do not underestimate the way that Christianity deliberately plays on our emotions, tempting us to lower our defences, stop thinking rationally and to just believe!

This! Especially this! I was very prone to fearing stuff like the rapture, demons, hell or eternal damnation. I knew after a bit of rational thought all of this was very much bullshit, but the fear still kept me in. I was stuck in the faith for so long because I feared the unknown and the supposed cosmic horrors beyond human comprehension that were in a battle with Heavenly forces for my eternal soul. That's a lot to put on somebody. Especially since I was suffering with anxiety issues that didn't help anything.

 

When I started seriously deconverting too at the beginning of this year and after I came out to my parents around that time, I was still having a hard time with some things. Especially anxiety and stress from not only coming out, but also losing faith and other various issues. Sometimes when I was having really awful moments, I remember a few times my family telling me that "the Devil has a hold of you" that fucked me up for a while, as you could imagine. Anyone else have this said to them? It's pretty messed up telling someone that the most evil being in the world has you held captive, like, holy fucking shit. I felt like crap. I'm okay now though, but my god. I can't believe I sincerely believed all this crap.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I rather enjoy the emotional pull I feel at the Buddhist temple.  I recognize it for what it is, of course; but I also let it be what it is.  It is a good reminder for me that my emotions, like my thoughts, are not permanent, and only have what power I give them.

As a follow-up to this, I would add that it is relatively easy to observe my own thoughts.  I simply need to sit quietly for a moment and the thoughts will come.  I can then simply observe them dispassionately and without judgment. 

 

Observing my emotions, on the other hand, is much trickier.  Even just spotting an emotion in the wild is difficult.  And, given that it is an emotion, I'm generally too busy experiencing it that it's nearly impossible to really study on it in its natural habitat.  I can analyze it afterwards; but that doesn't yield nearly as much data as being able to do so as it is occurring.  So, having that kind of emotional experience is extremely helpful in my progression toward mindfulness and living in the moment. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

26 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I rather enjoy the emotional pull I feel at the Buddhist temple.  I recognize it for what it is, of course; but I also let it be what it is.  It is a good reminder for me that my emotions, like my thoughts, are not permanent, and only have what power I give them.

 

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

As a follow-up to this, I would add that it is relatively easy to observe my own thoughts.  I simply need to sit quietly for a moment and the thoughts will come.  I can then simply observe them dispassionately and without judgment. 

 

Observing my emotions, on the other hand, is much trickier.  Even just spotting an emotion in the wild is difficult.  And, given that it is an emotion, I'm generally too busy experiencing it that it's nearly impossible to really study on it in its natural habitat.  I can analyze it afterwards; but that doesn't yield nearly as much data as being able to do so as it is occurring.  So, having that kind of emotional experience is extremely helpful in my progression toward mindfulness and living in the moment. 

I don't know that I would want to have such an experience in a church, though.  Not that I'm ever in danger of having another born again experience or anything.  I think, for me, the amount of damage I experienced in the church, coupled with the unrelenting brutality of my own deconversion, would likely skew my emotions such that I would not be able to simply observe them for what they are and let them be.  I would likely begin to entertain them, and pass judgment on them, which would largely nullify the data and ruin the experiment. 

 

It might be possible if it were some quiet little Catholic church out in the wild Irish countryside, or even an Anglican church, as such a setting would be far enough removed from personal experience as to not introduce systemic error into the results.  And that is also, I suppose, why experiencing it in a Buddhist temple has proven both safe and effective. 

[TABA]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It might be possible if it were some quiet little Catholic church out in the wild Irish countryside

I found your place, Prof.  In fact I even checked it out by attending Mass there in June.  Yeah, you might like this.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yeah, @TABA, I think I could Ave the hell out of some Marias there.

[pantheory]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:24 AM, TABA said:

Geez, if even a rational, hardened atheist like Walter felt a momentary urge to throw himself at the foot of the cross, what hope do the rest of us poor bastards have to resist being sucked back in….  Seriously though, this is an important topic and I’m glad Walter brought it up.  

I often attend Catholic Mass with my wife.  She knows I don't believe any of it but it makes her happy that I go with her.  But also I do gain something from the experience.  Something close to spiritual, but not exactly.  I have no theistic beliefs whatever now and I even disapprove of theism, as I've mentioned elsewhere.  But it is a beautiful church, very traditional, with soaring arches, domes, beautiful stained glass and an organ.  For me, having grown up in a similar church, and having had a mostly positive experience in the church, or at least not too negative, it feels comforting and familiar.  I imagine many people who had no experience with Christianity would also find it beautiful and peaceful.  As I have found at other non-christian religious sites, such as the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, which I visited when it was a museum but which now, sadly, has been turned back into an active mosque.  

 

I will say that as much as I enjoy and am even moved by the trappings of Catholicism and other "high-church" experiences, I haven't yet felt an urge to throw myself at the foot of the cross, or engage with the Father, Son or Holy Spirit in any way.  Truth be told, I am getting rather bored with the Mass.  I'd prefer to just stop into the church outside of mass times for a few minutes, just to sit and appreciate the beauty and tranquility.  But I get much of the same quasi-spiritual benefit from being outside in nature, especially during my frequent hikes in the woods.  Or listening to good music, secular or religious, or enjoying beautiful art.

 

Obviously, various religious beliefs and practices fill various needs in human beings.  For those of us who have rejected religion, there may or may not be a space that needs to be filled with something else.  Maybe it's just the social aspect, of being around like-minded people regularly.  Maybe it's a philosophy that provides guidance for living life, but without a deity.  Maybe it's a way of coping with our mortality.  Maybe it's a need for ritual, for ceremony.  But we all have emotional needs, and various religions, even if they are also sometimes toxic, have often filled them through the ages.  I am satisfied that human beings can have rich, full lives without any belief in gods.  But it can be tricky to navigate the path away from a god.  One thing's for sure: the decline in belief is not going to stop any time soon, and the more alternatives that are available, the better for everybody.

 

I would be interested in how ex-christians have filled whatever gaps were left after deconverting!  Anyone?

 

 

I always liked to sing in church. I have gone to church just to sing in a group. I am certainly not anti-religion any more than I am anti- the Easter Bunny. It can be great fun for the little ones to believe IMO -- until their minds really begin to work

[TABA]

Hey @walterpthefirst, was this your first exposure to such a religious environment in a good while?  Since I am in a church regularly, I wonder if I’m maybe developing a bit of immunity to it, especially noticing my growing boredom with it.  No doubt it’s different for each of us.  I do think we each need to realize the risk of losing our clear-headedness about christianity.  How we deal with that will vary.  

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

Hey @walterpthefirst, was this your first exposure to such a religious environment in a good while?  Since I am in a church regularly, I wonder if I’m maybe developing a bit of immunity to it, especially noticing my growing boredom with it.  No doubt it’s different for each of us.  I do think we each need to realize the risk of losing our clear-headedness about christianity.  How we deal with that will vary.  

 

I don't attend church for any reason to do with faith, belief or religion, TABA.

 

 

When I do go it will be for one of three reasons.

 

1.  

My familial duty or some similar obligation to attend christenings, weddings or funerals.  On these occasions I will join in as little as I can, gauging my degree of involvement in prayers, songs and responses according to the company I'm keeping.  Almost everyone in my family and circle of friends understands that I'm an atheist and that I'm really only attending because they expect me to.  Most CofE churches and their congregations are quite laid back about this - which works in my favour.

 

2.

If a given church or chapel is the venue for a concert, a recital or something similar.  Since most places of worship are designed to have good acoustics they lend themselves to such events, both sacred and secular.  My wife used to sing soprano in a local choir and we both have a keen interest in song.  The great composers were often charged by their patrons to write masses, hymns and other sacred music and listening to these works in a building designed for religious services is actually a very fine thing indeed.  

 

3.

Visiting churches and cathedrals for purely artistic, architectural or historic interest.  Here I'm referring to the visual arts of the stained glass, the carvings done in wood and stone, the tapestries and so on.  These things can be quite moving in a purely artistic sense, quite removed from their religious content.  I consider them to be more of a celebration of human ingenuity and skill rather than something that speaks of the divine.

 

 

Having said all of that TABA, I must just mention the emotional content of our visit to Coventry cathedral. 

 

The original 10th century building was almost totally destroyed by the bombs of the Luftwaffe in WW2 and is now an empty shell.  But adjacent to it is the new cathedral, which was consecrated in 1962.  The most profoundly moving part of the new building is the chapel of Reconciliation.  This has nothing to with the god's reconciliation with man.  Instead it is all about man's reconciliation with his fellow man.  

 

In this particular case the reconciliation of the people of Coventry, who lost their cathedral to the bombs, with the people of Berlin, who lost the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church to allied bombing.  The focus of this chapel is a large, badly-burned wooden cross that is made up of two beams salvaged from the ruins of the German church.  A similar cross stands in the a chapel of reconciliation in Berlin, that one being made from two badly-burned beams that once held up the roof of the now-destroyed Coventry cathedral.

 

Both cities felt that it was fitting to exchange crosses in this way as a permanent symbol of the hopes of both nations for reconciliation and peace.  The fact that these objects are symbols of the Christian faith is secondary to Audrey and I.  What we feel is more important is that they celebrate the human capacity to forgive each other, to hope and to work together for a better future.  God is simply not part of the equation for us.  We find what humanity can do, if it puts its mind to it, very moving.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

 

I’m maybe developing a bit of immunity to it, especially noticing my growing boredom with it.  No doubt it’s different for each of us. 

 

I kept going to church to please my wife and extended family.  Boredom came first.  Then came hypersomnia and restless legs.  The only time that happened was at church.  One sunday morning my wife poked me in the ribs to wake me up, and it startled me.  The guy sitting behind me chuckled, and I got up and left in the middle of a sermon. That was in 1991.  Have never been back except for funerals. 

 

Our church buildings were boring.  No beautiful steeples, windows, statues, etc. to inspire us.  Just the singing, praying, preaching and passing the communion trays around every sunday.  And of course passing the collection plates around.  Sometimes twice if they were trying to raise money for some reason.