Is God "in here" or "out there"?

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

When I was young, I was told by the christians that if only I opened my heart to Jesus and 'let him in' he would miraculously take over my life and I would be free forever after, in this life and the aftermath. 

 

Awesome! I'd do that, and I prayed fervently both in church and privately that this miracle would happen. I tried so hard even as a child to MAKE this miracle happen to me that I wound up going to the front of the church at the soul cattle call at the end of services several times but no miracle happened. All that praying, crying, and fellowship, all the bible reading and hoopla never managed to budge the crying out in my soul for that miracle of KNOWING in my heart that I was fine now, able to handle life better or loved by the creator of the Universe. 

 

Worse yet, my whole family, all five of us, were all christians, went to church every Sunday, didn't smoke, drink or even say anything more in the way of swearing than "sh*t' or 'dam*'. 

 

For all this alleged good, moral and righteous training (which somehow escaped my sister's treatment of me) it didn't work. When I got to be in high school I read a book called "Be Here Now", written by Baba Ram Dass which made more sense and was a different way of thinking about the spiritual than the "OUT THERE" crowd I grew up with. I began to suspect God was 'in here', the polar opposite of christian belief systems. 

 

I think (my opinion) one member here thinks that my stance is selfish and I would like to know the benefit of God being "out there" instead as he has suggested. Christianity calls on us to abandon trust in ourselves in favor of..............someone else telling you what God is rather than experiencing the Almighty as a deeply personal, no nonsense, SUBJECTIVE experience, then what are you getting at exactly? 

 

It seems all too apparent to me that in the end, christianity, at least in its present form is the selfish entity in this matter, not me, as I don't need to sell my idea of God, Jesus, or personal spiritual journey to you to have to believe it. Yet I don't get the same in return. Christians never seem to let well enough alone. My soul=my business, not yours so whatever you have to sell, sell it to each other instead of me. You are the ones who seem confused since there are more bible versions that can be counted than even a Google search can provide. If you can't agree with each other, why bother non christians? 

 

Kind of reminds me of a childhood song about a foolish man building his house upon the sand....

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

45 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

When I was young, I was told by the christians that if only I opened my heart to Jesus and 'let him in' he would miraculously take over my life and I would be free forever after, in this life and the aftermath. 

 

Awesome! I'd do that, and I prayed fervently both in church and privately that this miracle would happen. I tried so hard even as a child to MAKE this miracle happen to me that I wound up going to the front of the church at the soul cattle call at the end of services several times but no miracle happened. All that praying, crying, and fellowship, all the bible reading and hoopla never managed to budge the crying out in my soul for that miracle of KNOWING in my heart that I was fine now, able to handle life better or loved by the creator of the Universe. 

 

Worse yet, my whole family, all five of us, were all christians, went to church every Sunday, didn't smoke, drink or even say anything more in the way of swearing than "sh*t' or 'dam*'. 

 

For all this alleged good, moral and righteous training (which somehow escaped my sister's treatment of me) it didn't work. When I got to be in high school I read a book called "Be Here Now", written by Baba Ram Dass which made more sense and was a different way of thinking about the spiritual than the "OUT THERE" crowd I grew up with. I began to suspect God was 'in here', the polar opposite of christian belief systems. 

 

I think (my opinion) one member here thinks that my stance is selfish and I would like to know the benefit of God being "out there" instead as he has suggested. Christianity calls on us to abandon trust in ourselves in favor of..............someone else telling you what God is rather than experiencing the Almighty as a deeply personal, no nonsense, SUBJECTIVE experience, then what are you getting at exactly? 

 

It seems all too apparent to me that in the end, christianity, at least in its present form is the selfish entity in this matter, not me, as I don't need to sell my idea of God, Jesus, or personal spiritual journey to you to have to believe it. Yet I don't get the same in return. Christians never seem to let well enough alone. My soul=my business, not yours so whatever you have to sell, sell it to each other instead of me. You are the ones who seem confused since there are more bible versions that can be counted than even a Google search can provide. If you can't agree with each other, why bother non christians? 

 

Kind of reminds me of a childhood song about a foolish man building his house upon the sand....

 

 

 

All I have is my own experience M.  I didn't acknowledge my experiences as God until I was thirty something.  Went to church as a child...to no understanding.  Spent most of my youth and 20's in disdain of organized religion.  Still do in part today.  Anyhow, I always felt "I knew" before I ever gave any credit to "I knew" wasn't me...fueled my disdain.  Then was married, started studying with a group at work......many years of the study...church with the family, fundamentalism, until it fell apart.  So, two answers.  I think God was "in here" working before I acknowledged that those works weren't me.  And today I still think God is "out there" and resides "in here" when I'm not intentionally shutting the door.  I send thoughts and prayers.  He sends moments of knowing.  

 

Fwiw, I believe in "meeting together", i.e. communing in order that we know each other.  I know you better today than yesterday and have a different view of me labeling you "selfish".

 

Hope this helps.... it's rather brief and without detail but is what I experienced.

 

Thx.

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Thank you very, very much for your candor AND brevity (especially the brevity). I prefer to address the question with these loose rules of engagement. Say it directly and with an economy on words in mind. And knowing you understand that (probably via my emphatic and rapid fire questions here in the Lion's Den) will greatly enhance our communications. May we remain calm, civil and persuasive. After all, my understanding of debate is to 'win' via the best presented argument and change someone's mind to your way of thinking, right? I mean, to a christian, my very soul and eternity is at stake isn't it? 

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Thank you very, very much for your candor AND brevity (especially the brevity). I prefer to address the question with these loose rules of engagement. Say it directly and with an economy on words in mind. And knowing you understand that (probably via my emphatic and rapid fire questions here in the Lion's Den) will greatly enhance our communications. May we remain calm, civil and persuasive. After all, my understanding of debate is to 'win' via the best presented argument and change someone's mind to your way of thinking, right? I mean, to a christian, my very soul and eternity is at stake isn't it? 

I’m not really interested in a debate or trying to change your mind.  It’s your life and your decisions.  I will do my best to explain to you why I believe as I do. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

I don't understand why you'd be here unless you believe your mission is to 'save souls' for Christ. If not, why are you here?

 

Also, don't you have any christian friends to argue your side? I'd love to hear their views too as to why they'd want to engage with ex-christians. 

 

Unless, of course, you're lonely or bored or something else. What is it?

[Edgarcito]

36 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I don't understand why you'd be here unless you believe your mission is to 'save souls' for Christ. If not, why are you here?

 

Also, don't you have any christian friends to argue your side? I'd love to hear their views too as to why they'd want to engage with ex-christians. 

 

Unless, of course, you're lonely or bored or something else. What is it?

My dad was a condescending PhD who abused people with his intellect.  There are people here that delight in doing the same thing.  I come here to fight with dad in a sense as he's long passed.  And no ma'am, there are few Christians here that like to roll in the mud.  As you can see, the local intellect is poorly behaved.  They mostly give up after awhile.  I haven't been able to change any of them...nor they me.  Lol. It's kinda like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon where the coyote and the sheepdog met each other at the time clock as friends and then beat on each other during the day.  Then clocked out to have a beer.  It's a living.  In the end, there might be a sentence or two...,.that sorry bastard up and died.  Now who are we going to beat on.   And truthfully, there are smart people here.  I enjoy the conversations, abusive though they might be.  It's good to exercise the kidneys.... 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Ah! Now we're getting to the meat of the matter! Thank you again for being candid and direct. 

 

I interpret your interest in christianity as a reaction to your father's overly intellectual approach to life, i.e., you value feeling more than reason. Makes sense. 

And I mean reason in a classic sense, not that you personally lack an intellect. Emotional comfort had to be lacking in your most vital relationship and you wanted to FEEL something, anything that could bring relief from a cruel, seemingly unfeeling father. 

 

But on 'our side of the fence', you have to understand that we are polar opposites here; we react to an overly emphasized EMOTIONAL worldview because it feels as oppressive as your reaction to an overly emphasized Intellectual worldview and in my opinion it can be every bit as condescending and abusive as you feel intellectuals are here. 

 

And to be fair, Ed, you've been kind of hostile too. Let's try not to get too excited and remain as calm as Bugs Bunny, who in my opinion was the winner with his cool head and fast thinking. Heh heh. One of my favorites. 

 

Also, my real all time favorite, Betty Boop, who said, "One good thing about being down, the only way to go is up!"

 

 

[Edgarcito]

9 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Ah! Now we're getting to the meat of the matter! Thank you again for being candid and direct. 

 

I interpret your interest in christianity as a reaction to your father's overly intellectual approach to life, i.e., you value feeling more than reason. Makes sense. 

And I mean reason in a classic sense, not that you personally lack an intellect. Emotional comfort had to be lacking in your most vital relationship and you wanted to FEEL something, anything that could bring relief from a cruel, seemingly unfeeling father. 

 

But on 'our side of the fence', you have to understand that we are polar opposites here; we react to an overly emphasized EMOTIONAL worldview because it feels as oppressive as your reaction to an overly emphasized Intellectual worldview and in my opinion it can be every bit as condescending and abusive as you feel intellectuals are here. 

 

And to be fair, Ed, you've been kind of hostile too. Let's try not to get too excited and remain as calm as Bugs Bunny, who in my opinion was the winner with his cool head and fast thinking. Heh heh. One of my favorites. 

 

Also, my real all time favorite, Betty Boop, who said, "One good thing about being down, the only way to go is up!"

 

 

Yes, I can be a complete ass.  But I quit commenting rather than yelling at you....lol.  That has to be worth a few points.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

No, I think you showed respect (or something that at least resembles it), which is all I require to converse with you. I have demonstrated my ability to defend myself so if it's acceptable and with a couple more caveats, we may proceed. 

 

I expect you to at least maintain this level or better of civility or I will call bullshit and be finished with the conversation. We need a goal, which is not perhaps to completely agree but to at least agree there is a clear end game to this endeavor. 

 

What will that goal be? Mind you, this is a section you and I can both present our best case for our 'beliefs', our worldview, our accumulated spiritual experience and lessons and above all, to remember our humanity. Sure, we all 'fail'. But even that is a subjective experience that is unique to our life's 'mission', as you will. 

 

Why are we here, Edgarcito? I would prefer no Bible verses please but your own thoughts. 

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

No, I think you showed respect (or something that at least resembles it), which is all I require to converse with you. I have demonstrated my ability to defend myself so if it's acceptable and with a couple more caveats, we may proceed. 

 

I expect you to at least maintain this level or better of civility or I will call bullshit and be finished with the conversation. We need a goal, which is not perhaps to completely agree but to at least agree there is a clear end game to this endeavor. 

 

What will that goal be? Mind you, this is a section you and I can both present our best case for our 'beliefs', our worldview, our accumulated spiritual experience and lessons and above all, to remember our humanity. Sure, we all 'fail'. But even that is a subjective experience that is unique to our life's 'mission', as you will. 

 

Why are we here, Edgarcito? I would prefer no Bible verses please but your own thoughts. 

I don't have any issues with you at all M.  I'm at a stage in my life where I am not caring that much anymore.  I shall do my best...or at least try.  

 

Why are we here is the question at hand.  To overcome and pass down meaning, hope, love.....despite the trials.  It's difficult.  To endeavor in those things that last.  (this is off the cuff.... haven't ever pondered that question much, if at all.)

 

Edit:  I forgot tenacity and perseverance...to teach those as well.

 

Edit edit:  And this is why this place sucks worse than church...no pot lucks, not even chips and salsa....lol.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm at a stage in my life where I am not caring that much anymore

I've been at that stage more times in my life than I can remember. It's a product of all those awful emotions like confusion, despair, and depression, even emotional agony. I've been at the point of suicide more than once, overwhelmed by all these things and more. I believe it's at this point of maximum emotional vulnerability, rock bottom and in a state of surrender, that the Light begins to appear. 

 

For me, it may surprise you to know that an episode exactly of that nature occurred in May of this year, at which time I was getting close to that suicidal stage again, parked at a trail head in the woods in my car, and had to let out a primal scream from hell. I cried and invoked The Great Mother, Spirits of the Goddesses of the Forest to help me. 

 

I can't say it was 'them'. I only know that a change came over me and very literally began to speak to my heart. I was 'given permission' to flee as far from the offending situation as I could so I drove two hours east of where I live and stayed in a motel for two glorious nights, healing, thinking (drinking beer) and tending to the wounds that left me bleeding and alone. If not for whatever Force entered me at that time and changed me I wouldn't be here today. And I wouldn't be able to tell you of my personal (if bizarre and eccentric) experience with the Divine. 

 

And once I had healed enough, I went back into the fray renewed. 

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

To overcome and pass down meaning, hope, love.....despite the trials.

Very worthy goals. Can you receive those gifts too? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I forgot tenacity and perseverance...to teach those as well

From what I've learned about you, you've got no problem there. Most christians ARE tenacious, but that said, sometimes people don't want to be taught. Are you able to live with that? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

22 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

And this is why this place sucks worse than church...no pot lucks, not even chips and salsa....lol.

Now that actually IS kind of funny. 

That said, this is a place for former christians, you know that. Hopefully you're not here to interfere with their healing are you? 

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I've been at that stage more times in my life than I can remember. It's a product of all those awful emotions like confusion, despair, and depression, even emotional agony. I've been at the point of suicide more than once, overwhelmed by all these things and more. I believe it's at this point of maximum emotional vulnerability, rock bottom and in a state of surrender, that the Light begins to appear. 

 

For me, it may surprise you to know that an episode exactly of that nature occurred in May of this year, at which time I was getting close to that suicidal stage again, parked at a trail head in the woods in my car, and had to let out a primal scream from hell. I cried and invoked The Great Mother, Spirits of the Goddesses of the Forest to help me. 

 

I can't say it was 'them'. I only know that a change came over me and very literally began to speak to my heart. I was 'given permission' to flee as far from the offending situation as I could so I drove two hours east of where I live and stayed in a motel for two glorious nights, healing, thinking (drinking beer) and tending to the wounds that left me bleeding and alone. If not for whatever Force entered me at that time and changed me I wouldn't be here today. And I wouldn't be able to tell you of my personal (if bizarre and eccentric) experience with the Divine. 

 

And once I had healed enough, I went back into the fray renewed. 

 

 

Glad you are ok.  Have found out that other people need me more than I need to escape.  Wonderfully glad I never came close to escaping....

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Very worthy goals. Can you receive those gifts too? 

oh yeah.

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Now that actually IS kind of funny. 

That said, this is a place for former christians, you know that. Hopefully you're not here to interfere with their healing are you? 

I'm human.  I mostly stay in my spot.  We've had our moments here....many of them.  I expect that fighting with me is helpful on some level.  They get to yell, I get to.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

11 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

From what I've learned about you, you've got no problem there. Most christians ARE tenacious, but that said, sometimes people don't want to be taught. Are you able to live with that? 

That's an interesting question.  Some people I respect and some I don't.  And I really don't understand the switch that controls that.  So guessing, I'm about 25% teachable, and 95% not....

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Have found out that other people need me more than I need to escape

What makes you think that? Have they told you this directly or are you guessing? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Wonderfully glad I never came close to escaping....

I hope this isn't meant to undermine my feelings....bible says suicide is a sin, blah blah blah

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I expect that fighting with me is helpful on some level

Do you antagonize people to get that reaction? I notice christians tend to do that and then yell 'persecution!!!' If you're inviting it, don't pretend to be surprised if you get hostility. 

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

What makes you think that? Have they told you this directly or are you guessing? 

No one has told me......children need their parents...

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I hope this isn't meant to undermine my feelings....bible says suicide is a sin, blah blah blah

No, wasn't directed at you at all.  I didn't tell you whether I had tried or not....

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

That's not what I mean and you know it. Anybody else 'need' you? 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Do you antagonize people to get that reaction? I notice christians tend to do that and then yell 'persecution!!!' If you're inviting it, don't pretend to be surprised if you get hostility. 

I'm sure I have in the past.  I'm not surprised.  I tend to be worse when I'm stressed.  And as TABA has suggested, the Lion's Den is for lions...