Perfect

[Edgarcito]

The question comes to mind why we have words like perfect.  What is perfect..  And why do we even have a sense of perfect...i.e. peak moments.  What defines a peak moment.....(non-sexually damn heathens).

 

per·fect

ADJECTIVE

1. having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be:

   "life certainly isn't perfect at the moment" · "a perfect summer's day"
2. absolute; complete (used for emphasis):

   "a perfect stranger" · "all that Joseph said made perfect sense to me"

[pantheory]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

The question comes to mind why we have words like perfect.  What is perfect..  And why do we even have a sense of perfect...i.e. peak moments.  What defines a peak moment.....(non-sexually damn heathens).

 

per·fect

ADJECTIVE

1. having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be:

   "life certainly isn't perfect at the moment" · "a perfect summer's day"
2. absolute; complete (used for emphasis):

   "a perfect stranger" · "all that Joseph said made perfect sense to me"

 

To consider something "perfect" one has to have a standard to compare it with. The problem is that we all don't agree on the same standards concerning reality and perfection.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

The question comes to mind why we have words like perfect.  What is perfect..  And why do we even have a sense of perfect...i.e. peak moments.  What defines a peak moment.....(non-sexually damn heathens).

 

per·fect

ADJECTIVE

1. having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be:

   "life certainly isn't perfect at the moment" · "a perfect summer's day"
2. absolute; complete (used for emphasis):

   "a perfect stranger" · "all that Joseph said made perfect sense to me"

Hi Edgar! How ya been? I've missed you! And I must admit you kind of hurt my feelings when you refused to play 'Guess that Cartoon' with me. But it's all good.

 

As to your question....

 

What about this: 

 

verb (used with object)

15. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless:He has succeeded in perfecting his recipe for chicken Kiev.

16. to bring nearer to perfection; improve; make better:She works hard to perfect her writing.

     

    Seems to me perfection is a process. Or an idea. In any case, there are as many subjective 'definitions' of Perfect as there are minds on earth. 

    That said, you weren't going to segue into something about perfect god, were you? 

     

    If so, please elaborate. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

To consider something "perfect" one has to have a standard to compare it with. The problem is that we all don't agree on the same standards concerning reality and perfection.

Exactly. Perfect is highly subjective, like ideas about God, IMO.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Well, now, Ed, if the word "perfect" didn't exist in the English vocabulary, how else would we be able to explain a god who can feed 5,000 people with a couple of Filet-O-Fish sandwiches, but somehow still can't figure out how to solve world hunger?

[walterpthefirst]

Perfection is an abstract concept, with no real or physical expression.

 

In mathematics a Perfect Number is a positive integer that is equal to the sum of its positive divisors.  For instance, 6 has divisors 1, 2 and 3 (excluding itself), and 1 + 2 + 3 = 6, so 6 is a perfect number.

 

 

When it comes to subjectivity, if two or more people agree that a given thing is perfect, then they have put their subjectivity to one side to reach that agreement.  Each of them retains their individual subjectivity, but when communicating about that given thing they put their agreement before their personal subjectivity.  And this mutual agreement about terms and terminology is the basis of all communication.  If everyone put their own subjectivity first and insisted that everyone else agree with them, then all communication would be impossible.  Nobody could ever agree on the meaning of words.

 

But, since we all DO communicate, everyone naturally and instinctively puts their ability to agree first, before their own subjectivity.  This can be seen in how children learn to speak.  No child insists on its own subjective experience of reality from get go.  Instead they learn by copying and imitating their parents, siblings, relations and friends.  Only later in life do they form the concept of subjective experience.

 

The process of common agreement of the meaning of words is how Christians arrive at their understanding of god's perfect attributes.  In orthodox Christianity the god of the bible is taken to be perfectly good, perfectly just and perfectly truthful.  He has a perfectly complete knowledge of all things and therefore there is nothing left for him to discover, understand or know.  This perfection of all knowledge means that he is complete in of himself and therefore unchanging, changeless and unable to be changed by anything.  

 

Q.  What else is there left for a perfectly all-knowing god to know?

A.  Nothing.  Therefore god is eternally unchanging in his perfection.

 

Christians come to understand these things by being raised in them, by being taught them or by learning these things for themselves.  Even though billions of Christians will each have their own subjective understandings of god's perfection, in orthodox Christianity this subjectivity yields to the common agreement that god is perfect.  Not perfect in any way that humans can understand that word, but perfect in ways that are beyond human understanding and wisdom.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

19 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

To consider something "perfect" one has to have a standard to compare it with. The problem is that we all don't agree on the same standards concerning reality and perfection.

I agree.  It's just that we hear so much talk about being whole, doing what we need to be the best that we can be for ourselves and then others.... which seems selfish to me but, it speaks to the same notion...that there is/are something/s in our lives that move us to the feeling of perfect/whole/complete.  Might be just a feeling...all the kids are happy, pockets are full, not hungry, etc., or just might be a fleeting moment in nature or church or the grocery store that gives us that same feeling.

 

Just speculating that there are alignments for a lack of a better word that bring us in unison within our environment, the "perfect".... whether we think that God or the universe or some quantum arrangement, idk.

 

I personally think it's a thing... and think it associated with God.

 

Also, I tend to think that people play sports to artificially generate those moments via a win or personal best.....just an opinion.  thx.

[Edgarcito]

13 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Hi Edgar! How ya been? I've missed you! And I must admit you kind of hurt my feelings when you refused to play 'Guess that Cartoon' with me. But it's all good.

 

As to your question....

 

What about this: 

 

verb (used with object)

15. to bring to perfection; make flawless or faultless:He has succeeded in perfecting his recipe for chicken Kiev.

16. to bring nearer to perfection; improve; make better:She works hard to perfect her writing.

     

    Seems to me perfection is a process. Or an idea. In any case, there are as many subjective 'definitions' of Perfect as there are minds on earth. 

    That said, you weren't going to segue into something about perfect god, were you? 

     

    If so, please elaborate. 

I don't see any thing I really disagree with in your thoughts M.....actively working towards a whole or complete even thought it's seemingly or only attainable for moments as we exist.  (Doing fine, very busy....just moving through life)  Hope all is well in your court.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Christians come to understand these things by being raised in them, by being taught them or by learning these things for themselves.  Even though billions of Christians will each have their own subjective understandings of god's perfection, in orthodox Christianity this subjectivity yields to the common agreement that god is perfect.  Not perfect in any way that humans can understand that word, but perfect in ways that are beyond human understanding and wisdom.  

 

Well said Walter. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I agree.  It's just that we hear so much talk about being whole, doing what we need to be the best that we can be for ourselves and then others.... which seems selfish to me but, it speaks to the same notion...that there is/are something/s in our lives that move us to the feeling of perfect/whole/complete.  Might be just a feeling...all the kids are happy, pockets are full, not hungry, etc., or just might be a fleeting moment in nature or church or the grocery store that gives us that same feeling.

 

You've mentioned this before. I get a sense you feel that doing for yourself is selfish? Is that correct or am I wrong? If you feel that way, why? It's not to poke at you it is a question that has always baffled me. How much care is TOO MUCH care for one's self? Is there a point that divides enlightened self interest from selfishness? Is there a standard for it? Something in the Bible, perhaps that gives us a clue? 

The rest of your statement, that perfection is a feeling, a sense of something more than ourselves we need to pay attention to as it happens, is the embodiment of god himself, is that what you mean? 

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Just speculating that there are alignments for a lack of a better word that bring us in unison within our environment, the "perfect".... whether we think that God or the universe or some quantum arrangement, idk.

Do you think it's possible to have a state of being that is 'always enlightened' as the mystics are said to be in? Can all those separate, individual moments of joy be combined into an 'always on' way? 

I believed as a christian that could be done and then.....happily ever after no matter what happened. It sounds to me like you wouldn't mind having the same thing. 

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Also, I tend to think that people play sports to artificially generate those moments via a win or personal best.....just an opinion.  thx.

Heh heh heh heh.....that sounds like an inside joke.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see any thing I really disagree with in your thoughts M.....actively working towards a whole or complete even thought it's seemingly or only attainable for moments as we exist.  (Doing fine, very busy....just moving through life)  Hope all is well in your court.

So it seems you are wistful today Ed. Maybe it's that same all-too-human experience of knowing there's SOMETHING SOMEWHERE that can make you feel whole, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And if you just keep trying and never give up some day it will come to you in all its fullness. I look forward to that day too my friend. 

I am as well as I can be. I worry about my friend very much. She has, as they say, a heavy cross to bear. 

Here's hoping your new year is a happy one Ed. 

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

You've mentioned this before. I get a sense you feel that doing for yourself is selfish? Is that correct or am I wrong? If you feel that way, why? It's not to poke at you it is a question that has always baffled me. How much care is TOO MUCH care for one's self? Is there a point that divides enlightened self interest from selfishness? Is there a standard for it? Something in the Bible, perhaps that gives us a clue? 

The rest of your statement, that perfection is a feeling, a sense of something more than ourselves we need to pay attention to as it happens, is the embodiment of god himself, is that what you mean? 

Do you think it's possible to have a state of being that is 'always enlightened' as the mystics are said to be in? Can all those separate, individual moments of joy be combined into an 'always on' way? 

I believed as a christian that could be done and then.....happily ever after no matter what happened. It sounds to me like you wouldn't mind having the same thing. 

Heh heh heh heh.....that sounds like an inside joke.

Well the thought is that there are things that would make us "whole".  The implication is if there are peak moments when we feel whole, this suggests the rest of the time we are not.  So then it follows that these time are really wonderful to the point....do we attempt to provide them for ourselves or others.  To answer your question.....i don't know.  Posted this topic as I wanted to visit about it.

 

To your next question....I'm not a pantheist so I separate creation from the entity God.  I believe God works within creation but is not God.  I understand we could argue otherwise, but I don't wish to turn down that path....thx.

 

And no, I don't believe constant enlightenment happens now......and nope, no always on joy button.

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

So it seems you are wistful today Ed. Maybe it's that same all-too-human experience of knowing there's SOMETHING SOMEWHERE that can make you feel whole, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And if you just keep trying and never give up some day it will come to you in all its fullness. I look forward to that day too my friend. 

I am as well as I can be. I worry about my friend very much. She has, as they say, a heavy cross to bear. 

Here's hoping your new year is a happy one Ed. 

+1  (Christians don't have a like button).

[pantheory]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:21 AM, Edgarcito said:

I agree.  It's just that we hear so much talk about being whole, doing what we need to be the best that we can be for ourselves and then others.... which seems selfish to me but, it speaks to the same notion...that there is/are something/s in our lives that move us to the feeling of perfect/whole/complete.  Might be just a feeling...all the kids are happy, pockets are full, not hungry, etc., or just might be a fleeting moment in nature or church or the grocery store that gives us that same feeling.

 

Just speculating that there are alignments for a lack of a better word that bring us in unison within our environment, the "perfect".... whether we think that God or the universe or some quantum arrangement, idk.

 

I personally think it's a thing... and think it associated with God.

 

Also, I tend to think that people play sports to artificially generate those moments via a win or personal best.....just an opinion.  thx.

 

For one thing we are all humans and nearly all of us live in a civilized society. This means that we have many common needs, satisfactions, and community laws. Nearly all would agree that trying to live in symbiosis with all other humans would be a good thing.  Of course many valuable morals concerning living in harmony with others can be found in the Bible, but unfortunately there's a lot of "us first" mentality there also (God's chosen people), etc. etc. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:46 PM, Edgarcito said:

To your next question....I'm not a pantheist so I separate creation from the entity God.  I believe God works within creation but is not God.  I understand we could argue otherwise, but I don't wish to turn down that path....thx.

 

Not a problem. Don't want to argue about it either. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:46 PM, Edgarcito said:

And no, I don't believe constant enlightenment happens now......and nope, no always on joy button.

Guess that's what heaven's for, eh? 

That said, I could go for an 'always on' button. Now THAT'S my idea of perfect! 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:47 PM, Edgarcito said:

+1  (Christians don't have a like button).

I'll lend you mine. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:11 PM, pantheory said:

For one thing we are all humans and nearly all of us live in a civilized society. This means that we have many common needs, satisfactions, and community laws. Nearly all would agree that trying to live in symbiosis with all other humans would be a good thing.  Of course many valuable morals concerning living in harmony with others can be found in the Bible, but unfortunately there's a lot of "us first" mentality there also (God's chosen people), etc. etc. 

Startin to wonder about that 'civilized' part. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:46 PM, Edgarcito said:

And no, I don't believe constant enlightenment happens now......and nope, no always on joy button.

Good morning Ed! How about a little sunshine joy button....for the time being? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:47 PM, Edgarcito said:

+1  (Christians don't have a like button).

Ok Ed, looks like I'm going to have to coax you a little. Plus I'm bored, so in exchange for one 'like' button, answer the following question: 

 

What's the name of the tablet, when dropped in a glass of water, produced the equivalent of a soft drink? 

 

P.S. Anyone may answer, but for an unknown benefit........

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Here's an easy one Ed. What is the name of the Grammy award winning musician, known for his single "Cliffs of Dover", born in Austin, Texas and an all time favorite of mine? 

 

Look, the lions have been fed. There's no one here to eat you alive. I promise I will be a good heathen. 

[pantheory]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:18 PM, moxieflux66 said:

Startin to wonder about that 'civilized' part. 

 

Hi Moxie,

 

IMO The western world now is the most civilized time in all of its history, right? Because of the multitude of possible outcomes and opinions, all could never come to agreement on almost anything, and there will always be nut-cases. How one disagrees is just a test of the civilization, system of government, leaders, laws, police, etc. IMO.

 

And  a good system can always be changed, but there will always be disagreement on what those changes should be since there would be little agreement on what a "perfect" civilization should look like and entail.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

11 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

Hi Moxie,

 

IMO The western world now is the most civilized time in all of its history, right? Because of the multitude of possible outcomes and opinions, all could never come to agreement on almost anything, and there will always be nut-cases. How one disagrees is just a test of the civilization, system of government, leaders, laws, police, etc. IMO.

 

And  a good system can always be changed, but there will always be disagreement on what those changes should be since there would be little agreement on what a "perfect" civilization should look like and entail.

Guess the pandemic proved that, eh? 

[mwc]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:43 AM, moxieflux66 said:

Here's an easy one Ed. What is the name of the Grammy award winning musician, known for his single "Cliffs of Dover", born in Austin, Texas and an all time favorite of mine? 

     No answer?  I won't say who it is...

 

     I'll add that I saw him and Satch play in Irvine, Ca way back in 1990.  The third set was the Riverdogs with Vivien Campbell who was in a number of major bands but went on to play with Def Leppard.  Good show even though we didn't have the best seats and it rained on and off a bit.  I was young and could see well and tolerate things like that better back then.  

 

          mwc

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

6 hours ago, mwc said:

 No answer?  I won't say who it is...

Ok, you know who it is, and I'll just give Ed one more chance.......

 

C'mon Ed, he's from your state......