Ex catholic here ? What about the miracles ?

[MarieMonteiro]

Hello everybody,

 

I am posting today because I am struggling a lot with the Catholic miracles. I saw all the flaws of the Bible, and deep inside I don't believe in Christianity anymore... But I have huge anguishes with the Catholic miracles that are all over the internet. Three of them especially bother me right now...

 

° the 70th miracle of Lourdes, Bernadette Moriau being healed from cauda equina.

° the stigmata of Padre Pio. They say that a doctor was commissioned by the vatican to investigate on the wounds of Pio, the doctor put a bandage that was impossible for Pio to remove, he left him for a month with his bandage, when he came back he was shocked to see the stigamatas had not healed. I tried to find the link where I read that, I thought it was Wikipedia but I can't find it anymore. It was precised that the doctor was not a partisan of Pio, was actually angry to discover that his wounds had not healed in a month, and the investigation happened when the Vatican was distrustful of Pio.

° the healing of Giovanni Savino by Pio.

https://kolbecenter.org/kolbe-report-10-19-19/

"Finally, consider the case of Giovanni Savino, a spiritual son of St. Padre Pio who lived and worked in San Giovanni Rotondo. Giovanni was a construction worker whose eyes were terribly damaged by a dynamite explosion on February 15, 1949. Witnesses who examined Giovanni immediately after the accident testified that his right eye had been completely destroyed. Nothing was left of it - while the left eye had been badly injured.

 

It was three days before Savino regained consciousness, with his entire head and face bandaged. He was told that it might be possible to save the left eye, but that the right eye was "completely gone."

 

In the meantime, Padre Pio was asking everyone he knew to pray for Giovanni for three days. He exposed the Blessed Sacrament in behalf of the blinded man. He was heard to pray, "Lord, I offer You one of my eyes for Giovanni, because he's the father of a family."

 

At 12:30 or 1 in the morning of February 25, Giovanni Savino was awake, praying the Rosary, when he smelled the "aroma of paradise." To the heavy smoker, it smelled like tobacco. He felt three slaps on his forehead and understood that it was Padre Pio near him. He actually felt the tightness of the bedclothes caused by someone standing against the bed. "Give me my sight, Padre Pio, or let me die," he said. "I cannot live like this."

 

Later that morning the ophthalmologist came to examine Giovanni Savino's left eye. When the doctor took the bandages off Giovanni immediately said, "I can see you!" "Turn, so you can see me with your left eye," said the doctor. "No, I see you with my right eye. I don't see anything out of my left eye." The doctor insisted that he was seeing out of the left eye, as the right one was totally destroyed.

 

After further examination, it was clear that Savino spoke the truth. He was blind in the eye from which the shrapnel had been removed, but he was seeing perfectly from the eye that had been shattered to a bloody jelly. Completely astounded, the ophthalmologist, who up to that time had been an atheist, exclaimed, "Now I too believe, because this has happened right before me."

 

 

Has anyone heard of those claims? Are there ex Catholics here who knew of all those "miracles" and still deconverted? How did you clear up the doubts? The Catholic Church claims so many miracles, even today.... It is giving me a lot of anguishes.

[pantheory]

17 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

Hello everybody,

 

I am posting today because I am struggling a lot with the Catholic miracles. I saw all the flaws of the Bible, and deep inside I don't believe in Christianity anymore... But I have huge anguishes with the Catholic miracles that are all over the internet. Three of them especially bother me right now...

 

° the 70th miracle of Lourdes, Bernadette Moriau being healed from cauda equina.

° the stigmata of Padre Pio. They say that a doctor was commissioned by the vatican to investigate on the wounds of Pio, the doctor put a bandage that was impossible for Pio to remove, he left him for a month with his bandage, when he came back he was shocked to see the stigamatas had not healed. I tried to find the link where I read that, I thought it was Wikipedia but I can't find it anymore. It was precised that the doctor was not a partisan of Pio, was actually angry to discover that his wounds had not healed in a month, and the investigation happened when the Vatican was distrustful of Pio.

° the healing of Giovanni Savino by Pio.

https://kolbecenter.org/kolbe-report-10-19-19/

"Finally, consider the case of Giovanni Savino, a spiritual son of St. Padre Pio who lived and worked in San Giovanni Rotondo. Giovanni was a construction worker whose eyes were terribly damaged by a dynamite explosion on February 15, 1949. Witnesses who examined Giovanni immediately after the accident testified that his right eye had been completely destroyed. Nothing was left of it - while the left eye had been badly injured.

 

It was three days before Savino regained consciousness, with his entire head and face bandaged. He was told that it might be possible to save the left eye, but that the right eye was "completely gone."

 

In the meantime, Padre Pio was asking everyone he knew to pray for Giovanni for three days. He exposed the Blessed Sacrament in behalf of the blinded man. He was heard to pray, "Lord, I offer You one of my eyes for Giovanni, because he's the father of a family."

 

At 12:30 or 1 in the morning of February 25, Giovanni Savino was awake, praying the Rosary, when he smelled the "aroma of paradise." To the heavy smoker, it smelled like tobacco. He felt three slaps on his forehead and understood that it was Padre Pio near him. He actually felt the tightness of the bedclothes caused by someone standing against the bed. "Give me my sight, Padre Pio, or let me die," he said. "I cannot live like this."

 

Later that morning the ophthalmologist came to examine Giovanni Savino's left eye. When the doctor took the bandages off Giovanni immediately said, "I can see you!" "Turn, so you can see me with your left eye," said the doctor. "No, I see you with my right eye. I don't see anything out of my left eye." The doctor insisted that he was seeing out of the left eye, as the right one was totally destroyed.

 

After further examination, it was clear that Savino spoke the truth. He was blind in the eye from which the shrapnel had been removed, but he was seeing perfectly from the eye that had been shattered to a bloody jelly. Completely astounded, the ophthalmologist, who up to that time had been an atheist, exclaimed, "Now I too believe, because this has happened right before me."

 

 

Has anyone heard of those claims? Are there ex Catholics here who knew of all those "miracles" and still deconverted? How did you clear up the doubts? The Catholic Church claims so many miracles, even today.... It is giving me a lot of anguishes.

 

The problem I see with miracles is that you have to take the word of others, whether long ago or the more recent past. The old saying goes like this: Believe nothing of what you hear, be skeptical of everything you read, and believe only half of what you see. Many preachers in history have claimed that they were also healers, of which many were really scammers. Also, one of the easiest persons to fool is yourself.

[walterpthefirst]

Hello Marie,

 

 

You say that you are struggling a lot with CATHOLIC miracles. 

 

So the miracles claimed by other Christian denominations are automatically dismissed by you?

 

If they are, perhaps you should ask yourself (and tell us here) why that is?

 

If they aren't, perhaps you should ask yourself (and tell us here) why they aren't?

 

I'm asking you these questions, not to beat you up but to try and get you to examine your own thinking, Marie.

 

 

Another thing you might like to do is to investigate the miracles claimed by other, non-Christian religions like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and the Sikh religion.

 

If you do not find them as persuasive as the Christian claims or specifically the Catholic Christian claims, that should tell you something about your thinking.

 

That perhaps the your 'problem' with Catholic miracles doesn't lie out there, but within you and within your thoughts and feelings?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[MarieMonteiro]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Hello Marie,

 

 

You say that you are struggling a lot with CATHOLIC miracles. 

 

So the miracles claimed by other Christian denominations are automatically dismissed by you?

 

If they are, perhaps you should ask yourself (and tell us here) why that is?

 

If they aren't, perhaps you should ask yourself (and tell us here) why they aren't?

 

I'm asking you these questions, not to beat you up but to try and get you to examine your own thinking, Marie.

 

 

Another thing you might like to do is to investigate the miracles claimed by other, non-Christian religions like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and the Sikh religion.

 

If you do not find them as persuasive as the Christian claims or specifically the Catholic Christian claims, that should tell you something about your thinking.

 

That perhaps the your 'problem' with Catholic miracles doesn't lie out there, but within you and within your thoughts and feelings?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

Hello Walter,

 

Well I was not a Catholic when I was a christian, but a born again Christian, and I saw with my own eyes that the miracles from my branch of Christianity were always faked, or exaggerated... So I tend to dismiss more easily those miracles. But I never heard of the Catholic miracles until now, and they seem to be more "investigated" than the protestant ones. I never heard of miracles in other religions, except for the ones of Sai Baba (not sure about the spelling). And yes, his "miracles" do not bother me, because they don't frighten me, when Christianity scares me a lot...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

For every person god heals of blindness, millions more stay blind.

 

For every person god raises from the dead, millions more, just as deserving, stay dead.

 

We are invited to believe that jesus fed 5,000 people with some fish and bread; but millions have starved to death throughout history, many of them innocent children, with no god or miracle in sight. 

 

If we accept the miracles as true, if we take them at face value, then we learn two things about god.  First we learn that he is incredibly unjust.  His miracles occur randomly, at best, while often those most deserving are left to suffer without end.  Secondly, we learn that god is content to do the absolute bare minimum to demonstrate his supposed omnipotence.  He could feed the starving children.  He could put an end to war and bring peace on earth and goodwill toward humanity.  He could cure cancer, AIDS, multiple sclerosis, or jock itch.  But he'd rather appear in a piece of toast, reduce a slight fever, or find some soccer mom a parking space at Bed Bath and Beyond.

 

His miracles exhibit the absolute least he can do in the absolute most unfair and unjust manner.  They don't prove he exists; they prove he's an asshole. 

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Hello Walter,

 

Well I was not a Catholic when I was a christian, but a born again Christian, and I saw with my own eyes that the miracles from my branch of Christianity were always faked, or exaggerated... So I tend to dismiss more easily those miracles. But I never heard of the Catholic miracles until now, and they seem to be more "investigated" than the protestant ones. I never heard of miracles in other religions, except for the ones of Sai Baba (not sure about the spelling). And yes, his "miracles" do not bother me, because they don't frighten me, when Christianity scares me a lot...

 

 

Thank you for replying so promptly Marie.

 

 

Also, thank you for explaining about your religious background.  I think I must have been confused by the title you gave this thread.  Presumably you were asking if there are any ex-Catholics in this forum and not declaring that you were once a Catholic?  Sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick there.

 

So, the main thing that scares you is the level of investigation of Catholic miracles?   

 

The Vatican has a vast and well organized apparatus for promoting their agenda and it has the unquestioning ears and eyes of billions of people across the world who will just believe what they are told because the church of Rome tells them so.  But, in the wake of the world-wide Catholic priest paedophilia scandal, fewer people are now inclined to take what the Vatican says as gospel.  And this should also open your eyes, Marie.

 

If you know that the Catholic church lied, time and time again about their priests raping and sexually molesting children, why are you so willing to trust what they claim about their miracles?  That church was not at all interested in living in the truth but actively suppressed what their so called 'holy' men were doing to young children, even to the point of harassing and threatening the parents of these children.   The Vatican was not putting the words and teachings of Jesus into action but was much more interested in maintaining its position of power over the lives of billions, along with the prestige and money that goes with that.  Paedophile Catholic priests were not living as Christians, not were their superiors living as Christians either. 

 

 

So, if you find the level of investigation of Catholic miracles persuasive and believable Marie, then surely you also find the level of investigation into Catholic paedophilia and Catholic cover-ups just as persuasive and believable?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So, if you find the level of investigation of Catholic miracles persuasive and believable Marie, then surely you also find the level of investigation into Catholic paedophilia and Catholic cover-ups just as persuasive and believable?

 

 

I agree with what Walter said.  I spent years studying the history of religions, and a lot of time on the Catholics.  Their history leaves me with very little faith in anything they are reported as saying.  They slaughtered millions of people for centuries who did not agree with them.  And keep in mind that with the internet, anyone these days can claim to be a representative of the Vatican.  How many people are actually going to check it out to see if it is tue?

 

The claims of "miracles" and "apparitions" with witnesses and "proofs" have been around for eons.  By all kinds of religions and cults.  Why are their stories any more relevant than the others??

 

Below your icon you say you are not sure about the Christian God.   I can tell you the stories about him in Genesis come from much older myths from the Sumerians.  They simply changed some of the specifics of the stories around.  Much of the Bible is plagiarized stories from other religions.  WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

[MarieMonteiro]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:11 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

Thank you for replying so promptly Marie.

 

 

Also, thank you for explaining about your religious background.  I think I must have been confused by the title you gave this thread.  Presumably you were asking if there are any ex-Catholics in this forum and not declaring that you were once a Catholic?  Sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick there.

 

So, the main thing that scares you is the level of investigation of Catholic miracles?   

 

The Vatican has a vast and well organized apparatus for promoting their agenda and it has the unquestioning ears and eyes of billions of people across the world who will just believe what they are told because the church of Rome tells them so.  But, in the wake of the world-wide Catholic priest paedophilia scandal, fewer people are now inclined to take what the Vatican says as gospel.  And this should also open your eyes, Marie.

 

If you know that the Catholic church lied, time and time again about their priests raping and sexually molesting children, why are you so willing to trust what they claim about their miracles?  That church was not at all interested in living in the truth but actively suppressed what their so called 'holy' men were doing to young children, even to the point of harassing and threatening the parents of these children.   The Vatican was not putting the words and teachings of Jesus into action but was much more interested in maintaining its position of power over the lives of billions, along with the prestige and money that goes with that.  Paedophile Catholic priests were not living as Christians, not were their superiors living as Christians either. 

 

 

So, if you find the level of investigation of Catholic miracles persuasive and believable Marie, then surely you also find the level of investigation into Catholic paedophilia and Catholic cover-ups just as persuasive and believable?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Walter,

 

Sorry for my late reply, my one year old is sick and so I've been very busy.

 

Sorry for the misleading title, I should have written ex-Catholic in the plural, to ask if there were any ex-Catholics here. I did not mean to say I was an ex-Catholic, because I am not.

 

Thank you for your answer, it helps me getting some perspective.

 

Best regards 

Marie 

[MarieMonteiro]

On 2/13/2024 at 5:47 AM, Weezer said:

 

I agree with what Walter said.  I spent years studying the history of religions, and a lot of time on the Catholics.  Their history leaves me with very little faith in anything they are reported as saying.  They slaughtered millions of people for centuries who did not agree with them.  And keep in mind that with the internet, anyone these days can claim to be a representative of the Vatican.  How many people are actually going to check it out to see if it is tue?

 

The claims of "miracles" and "apparitions" with witnesses and "proofs" have been around for eons.  By all kinds of religions and cults.  Why are their stories any more relevant than the others??

 

Below your icon you say you are not sure about the Christian God.   I can tell you the stories about him in Genesis come from much older myths from the Sumerians.  They simply changed some of the specifics of the stories around.  Much of the Bible is plagiarized stories from other religions.  WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Hello,

 

Thank you for your answer. I have studied the Bible a lot and came to the conclusion that it was the work of men, not of a divine entity. But I suppose the threat of hell has a very strong hold on me, so lingering doubts remain from time to time. Thank you for your comment, I appreciate the time you took to help me ease my mind.

 

Best regards 

Marie 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Hello Walter,

 

Sorry for my late reply, my one year old is sick and so I've been very busy.

 

Sorry for the misleading title, I should have written ex-Catholic in the plural, to ask if there were any ex-Catholics here. I did not mean to say I was an ex-Catholic, because I am not.

 

Thank you for your answer, it helps me getting some perspective.

 

Best regards 

Marie 

 

 

Not a problem Marie.  There's no pressure for you to respond quickly.  I was just pleased that you did so the other day.

 

I hope your child gets better soon.

 

 

As regards perspective, your reply to Weezer hits the nail upon the head. 

 

The threat of hell has a very strong emotional hold on you, despite you arriving at the rational conclusion that the bible is the work of men and not god.

 

The more you realize this, the more you will be able to heal yourself from the emotional damage Christianity does to people.

 

And, of course, we are all here to help you - so please just ask and we'll do what we can.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

[TABA]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 AM, MarieMonteiro said:

I saw all the flaws of the Bible, and deep inside I don't believe in Christianity anymore... But I have huge anguishes with the Catholic miracles that are all over the internet. Three of them especially bother me right now...

 

° the 70th miracle of Lourdes, Bernadette Moriau being healed from cauda equina.

° the stigmata of Padre Pio.

 

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 AM, MarieMonteiro said:

° the healing of Giovanni Savino by Pio.

 

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 AM, MarieMonteiro said:

Has anyone heard of those claims? Are there ex Catholics here who knew of all those "miracles" and still deconverted? How did you clear up the doubts? The Catholic Church claims so many miracles, even today.... It is giving me a lot of anguishes.

 

Hello MarieMonteiro,

 

I am an ex-Catholic: I was born into a Catholic family, baptized (sprinkled) at two days old, attended Catholic schools and attended Sunday Mass without fail until I was in my early 20s.  I drifted away from religion for a few years but later was baptized at a fundamentalist church (Church of Christ), where I remained until I eventually deconverted.  So I have experience as a Catholic, as a non-Catholic Christian and now finally as a non-believer, an agnostic atheist.  

 

Growing up, I heard many stories of miracles supposedly witnessed by devout Catholics, like the appearances of Mary at Lourdes in France, Fatima in Portugal and as late as the 1980s in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia.  In my native Ireland in the mid-1980s, there was a brief burst of "moving statue" stories.  

 

Being in a heavily Catholic country (Ireland is now much less religious) the stories I heard all pointed to God demonstrating his power to Catholic believers.  But it is clear that religious people of various kinds, not just Catholics and not just Christians, have reported miracles down through the ages, and still do today.  

 

These miracle stories were not a factor in my eventual rejection of Christianity.  They pale into insignificance when compared to the major arguments against the existence of the God of the Bible.  Many of these arguments have been laid out recently by our member Wertbag in his series Reasons for Disbelief.  The idea of a loving, all-powerful god who intervenes in human lives and in world events and who speaks to us through the Bible is simply incredible when it is examined in the light of day.

 

3 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I have studied the Bible a lot and came to the conclusion that it was the work of men, not of a divine entity. But I suppose the threat of hell has a very strong hold on me, so lingering doubts remain from time to time.

 

Your conclusion is sound, and it is the same one reached by so many.  Scholars who approach scripture with an open mind and using critical thinking skills are almost unanimously non-believers.  The threat of Hell does indeed cause awful anxiety and torment to many who understand that Hell is a myth created by humans.  May I ask you: are you confident of this, that Hell is not real?  If you are not confident, I suggest reading Bart Ehrman's book "Heaven and Hell".  It shows very clearly how the idea of Hell and Satan arose in attempts to explain the existence of evil.  However, I know very well that understanding the mythical origins of Hell and Satan does not keep one from living in fear of Hell.  Emotions often override reason.  I will say that the best way to overcome fear of Hell is to remind yourself, whenever the fear arises, of the best reasons not to believe.  Relief does NOT come from endlessly investigating Christian claims.  I would call this the "what if I'm wrong?" syndrome.  We can't have certainty about anything in life, to be honest.  Once you are satisfied that the religion is not true then it's time to move on and do your best to ignore the distractions that are big enough to hold you back but small enough that they change nothing in the final analysis: that Christianity and other theistic religions are products of the minds of humans, no more.

 

I hope this helps.  If anxiety is bad enough, you may need professional help.  But taking good care of yourself, getting rest, exercise, fresh air and a healthy diet all help.  I encourage you to stay around here and absorb the "feel" of being an ex-Christian.  Given the passage of time, those beliefs will seem more and more outlandish and you will wonder how you ever fell for them.  

 

Best wishes to you, MarieMonteiro!

 

[MarieMonteiro]

15 hours ago, TABA said:

 

 

 

Hello MarieMonteiro,

 

I am an ex-Catholic: I was born into a Catholic family, baptized (sprinkled) at two days old, attended Catholic schools and attended Sunday Mass without fail until I was in my early 20s.  I drifted away from religion for a few years but later was baptized at a fundamentalist church (Church of Christ), where I remained until I eventually deconverted.  So I have experience as a Catholic, as a non-Catholic Christian and now finally as a non-believer, an agnostic atheist.  

 

Growing up, I heard many stories of miracles supposedly witnessed by devout Catholics, like the appearances of Mary at Lourdes in France, Fatima in Portugal and as late as the 1980s in Medjugorje, Yugoslavia.  In my native Ireland in the mid-1980s, there was a brief burst of "moving statue" stories.  

 

Being in a heavily Catholic country (Ireland is now much less religious) the stories I heard all pointed to God demonstrating his power to Catholic believers.  But it is clear that religious people of various kinds, not just Catholics and not just Christians, have reported miracles down through the ages, and still do today.  

 

These miracle stories were not a factor in my eventual rejection of Christianity.  They pale into insignificance when compared to the major arguments against the existence of the God of the Bible.  Many of these arguments have been laid out recently by our member Wertbag in his series Reasons for Disbelief.  The idea of a loving, all-powerful god who intervenes in human lives and in world events and who speaks to us through the Bible is simply incredible when it is examined in the light of day.

 

 

Your conclusion is sound, and it is the same one reached by so many.  Scholars who approach scripture with an open mind and using critical thinking skills are almost unanimously non-believers.  The threat of Hell does indeed cause awful anxiety and torment to many who understand that Hell is a myth created by humans.  May I ask you: are you confident of this, that Hell is not real?  If you are not confident, I suggest reading Bart Ehrman's book "Heaven and Hell".  It shows very clearly how the idea of Hell and Satan arose in attempts to explain the existence of evil.  However, I know very well that understanding the mythical origins of Hell and Satan does not keep one from living in fear of Hell.  Emotions often override reason.  I will say that the best way to overcome fear of Hell is to remind yourself, whenever the fear arises, of the best reasons not to believe.  Relief does NOT come from endlessly investigating Christian claims.  I would call this the "what if I'm wrong?" syndrome.  We can't have certainty about anything in life, to be honest.  Once you are satisfied that the religion is not true then it's time to move on and do your best to ignore the distractions that are big enough to hold you back but small enough that they change nothing in the final analysis: that Christianity and other theistic religions are products of the minds of humans, no more.

 

I hope this helps.  If anxiety is bad enough, you may need professional help.  But taking good care of yourself, getting rest, exercise, fresh air and a healthy diet all help.  I encourage you to stay around here and absorb the "feel" of being an ex-Christian.  Given the passage of time, those beliefs will seem more and more outlandish and you will wonder how you ever fell for them.  

 

Best wishes to you, MarieMonteiro!

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

I am French, but I lived in Ireland during 5 years, and it's definitely still much more Catholic than France is. But it's changing in Ireland as well. 

 

My main issue with the Christian religion, actually, is the blasphemy of the holy spirit. Because I did curse it when I was a Christian and people were always telling me I was disobbeying the holy spirit... Tired of that, I cursed it. I then learned about the unforgivable blasphemy, and it created immense anguishes. My only solution was that Christianity was not the truth. I studied and found relief. But then I heard of those miracles claims and they scare me a lot... Because in my mind, if Christiniaty is right, then I'm condemned. I know it sounds like crazy thinking. I am actually under medication to help with the anguishes... But all your comments help me a lot. Thank you.

[Wertbag]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:37 PM, MarieMonteiro said:

the 70th miracle of Lourdes

The healings miracles of Lourdes have been much hyped but fail to hold up once investigated by anyone without a vested interest in them being true.  Millions of visitors go to the shrine and thousands have claimed to be healed, but when the church investigated, they were only willing to point to 70 as probable miracles and admitted the other 99% were placebo, wishful thinking and attention seekers.

Of the ones put forward several were found to be false, including the woman who was declared cured from her disease only to later die of it, the woman who claimed to have a tumor cured which turned out to have happened slowly some 3-4 months after her visit and not from an instant miracle.  It is also worth mentioning that cancer going into remission can happen by itself.  Some estimates put it at 1 in 100,000, which if you collect millions of cancer patients at one location based purely on the numbers you should have dozens that fall into this category.

Once you add on the fact that many of the claimed cures were back in the 40's and 50's, when medical technology was more basic and our ability to correctly diagnose illness was much worse than it is today, this explains why we see the total amount of claimed miracles decrease as our ability to confirm them improves.

Were they correctly diagnosed in the first place?  Were they undergoing treatment that could have had an effect?  Did the cure last long term?  Once you take all the factors into consideration, I've yet to find a single case that is compelling.

[TABA]

4 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I then learned about the unforgivable blasphemy, and it created immense anguishes. My only solution was that Christianity was not the truth. I studied and found relief.

You are not the first person who has come here tormented by the idea that they have committed the unforgivable sin and are hoping that Christianity is not true - and sadly you will not be the last.  But the good news is I have seen people in your situation overcome this, gain the courage to renounce Christianity, and see it lose its power over them.  I’ve seen people like that gain peace and a relief from the anxiety.  It takes time, it often takes professional help, but it has been and can be done!  The freedom and peace you gained before by rejecting this religion can be yours again.  But you must take the advice that @Hierophant and I have given you: to stop reading through christian claims and stories.  It’s important for unbelief to be on a firm foundation, but right now you are too anxious to be able to see clearly.  Once you can get your head clear you will be able to be confident that Christianity, its god, Satan and Hell are all pure myth.  
 

When you have such fears it can be hard to post publicly about them sometimes so feel free to contact me privately if that would help.  
 

Best wishes,

”TABA”

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

Tired of that, I cursed it. I then learned about the unforgivable blasphemy, and it created immense anguishes. My only solution was that Christianity was not the truth.

If there is a god, then there can be no such thing as an "unforgivable" sin.  Because we can only do the best we can with the lives we're given to live.  We can only make the most of the resources, talents, and assets we have at our disposal.  A god would understand this; and be more than willing to accept us proudly based on our best efforts.  Just like a father knows his child's limitations and loves them anyway.  Sure, you didn't get everything exactly right; but only a petty, vindictive, toddler-minded tyrant would hold that against you.  Why would an all-powerful god need you to believe the exactly perfect and correct doctrine before he is able to forgive and accept you?  How could an omniscient god not know exactly how to offer you absolution despite your failings?  How could an omnipresent god not be able to meet you exactly where you are?  And how could an omnibenevolent god condemn anybody?  And wouldn't a god of integrity want you to face your doubts and questions as honestly as you have done?  Wouldn't he prefer honest doubt over blind acceptance?  If he cares at all about truth, then he has to be willing to let each of us pursue the truth in our own way.

 

Your forgiveness comes from within yourself.  You've done fine.  You've fought the good fight, with perseverance and integrity.  If there is a god, he can't expect anything more from you than that.  Be at peace.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 2/14/2024 at 6:42 AM, MarieMonteiro said:

Hello,

 

Thank you for your answer. I have studied the Bible a lot and came to the conclusion that it was the work of men, not of a divine entity. But I suppose the threat of hell has a very strong hold on me, so lingering doubts remain from time to time. Thank you for your comment, I appreciate the time you took to help me ease my mind.

 

Best regards 

Marie 

Hello Marie,

 

I actually addressed this issue with another member that is having trouble yesterday and then I came across this thread. I relayed a lesson I studied and taught in church one time when I was still a preacher. But I want to talk about the miracles first. 

 

I've never been catholic but I think it odd that most famed miracles are from the catholic church, it's almost always catholic people that have to be exorcised of demonic possession, and it's always the catholic monuments that Weep blood etc. 

 

I would say it is a greater probability that it is all bullshit and probably even staged by the leaders of the catholic church. It wouldn't surprise me at all. 

 

When we are talking about miracles, Especially miracles where everyone involved is dead. I have to scoff honestly. I just don't believe them. It is the same problem with the Bible. Big claims but no proof at every turn. 

 

The questions I would be asking are:

Is anyone involved still alive?

If so, are they accessible so that you could talk to them yourself if you wanted?

Are there any records of parishioners attending services afterward seeing this miracle?

Is there any non-catholic evidence? Like the doctors notes, journal, etc.

 

I just have a feeling that if a doctor actually verified a man being able to see out of a dead eye socket this would have been a big deal in the medical field. He would have been talking to all his fellow professionals about it. 

 

Here is another point about miracles that needs to be noted. WHY AREN'T THERE MORE? These "miracles" were what Jesus said the church would be able to do to show God's power. 

 

John 14 

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

If everyone that believes is capable of performing these miracles or greater....... where are they? 

 

Ok, now about the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I don't think you have anything to worry about. This is a lesson I studied out a long long time ago. And I'm just gonna copy and paste it from what I posted yesterday. 

 

When I was a minister I was big on referencing words in the Hebrew and Greek dictionary I had to try to get closer to the original meaning. And my curiosity turned its eye to this specific subject one time. And these are the conclusions that I came to. 

 

First let's look at taking the Lord's name in vain. Some Christians think it's saying Goddamn, the Jews were so worried about it that they wouldn't say his name out of fear theu would get it wrong, and some think it's even as simple as exclaiming and saying something like this. "Jesus Christ what happened here". But I think it was meant to be a completely different issue. 

 

Exodus 20:7

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 

I underlined take and vain because these are the key words that I looked up.

 

Take

a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absolute and relative:—accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable ( man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, 

 

What I got from this word was that take in this instance is saying, to lift up, bear up, raise, carry, etc. 

 

Vain

in the sense of desolating; evil (as destructive), literally (ruin) or morally (especially guile); figuratively idolatry (as false, subjective), uselessness (as deceptive, objective; also adverbially, in vain):—false(-ly), lie, lying, vain, vanity.

 

Most of the term vain in this instance is talking evil, deception, lying, etc.

 

After seeing this I came to the conclusion that "Taking the Lord's name in vain" was much more than just a slip of the tongue or a curse word. It is saying that lifting up or bearing the Lord's name in deceit, evil, lying, etc. Is a sin that God will not be forgiven. 

 

Which makes sense right? That God would not want his followers doing evil in his name. 

 

So then I turned my attention to the blaspheme of the Holy Ghost. The other unforgivable sin in the bible. 

 

This one is a little trickier and ya have to take it into context. So we have to have more verses. 

 

Matthew 12

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

As you can see I underlined the whole first verse I quoted. The pharisees were accusing Jesus of taking the Lord's name in vain. Can you see that? He was telling everyone he was sent by the father to show the father's works and power. They were saying he was not doing it by god but the devil. Which Jesus goes on to explain how that wasn't the case and then talks about Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost. 

 

In this verse Blaspheme in the Greek dictionary is this. 

 

vilification (especially against God):—blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

 

So vilification against God. And what is the easiest way to make God a villain? By doing something evil in his name. It goes back and ties into taking the Lord's name in vain. Also the pharisees had spoken evil of and railed against Jesus. But they hadnt against the Holy Ghost. So they, at that point could be forgiven. But I think the important thing to take away is that it is not a simple curse word, or speaking against Christianity while deconverted. It is actually using God to do evil. When I think of this lesson I think about cultists that molest children and convince the parents that God/Holy Ghost told him that their daughter would be his wife. That is Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost. 

 

Anyway, I hope this old lesson of mine helps ease your mind. But my greater hope is that you somehow find a way out of it all together again. Free yourself from the chains of this ancient civilization and their ideologies. 

 

Sincerely,

Dark Bishop

 

[MarieMonteiro]

4 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

When we are talking about miracles, Especially miracles where everyone involved is dead. I have to scoff honestly. I just don't believe them. It is the same problem with the Bible. Big claims but no proof at every turn. 

 

The questions I would be asking are:

Is anyone involved still alive?

If so, are they accessible so that you could talk to them yourself if you wanted?

Are there any records of parishioners attending services afterward seeing this miracle?

Is there any non-catholic evidence? Like the doctors notes, journal, etc.

 

Hello DarkBishop,

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

I know that about Padre Pio's stigmata, there is the first hand report from the doctor who examined his wounds. The doctor was commissioned by the Vatican because at the time they believed Pio was a charlatan, and so did the doctor commissioned. So they put bandages on Pio's hands that he could not remove, they checked everyday the bandages and after a month the doctor was not happy to see that the wounds had not healed at all, actually they were bleeding even more than before. I read the report from the doctor, who is now dead I suppose, because it was in the 1920s. I can't find it anymore to forward it to you and, honestly, I don't want to search for it too much because it gives me anguishes.

 

 

About the blasphemy, thank you, it gives me some perspective. What helped me calm down as well a lot was that the Trinity is not even in the New Testament, and there is actually one verse in the NT that shatters this doctrine, it's when Jesus says that he does not know the time of his return, only the father who is in heaven knows. Christians will say "aw, he was limited by his earthly condition"... Does not make any sense at all but let's say they are right, Jesus was God on earth but limited. My question for them would be "what about the Holy Spirit? How come only the Father knows and not the Holy Spirit? If he is all knowing and the third person of the tri-une god, he should know too! But Jesus clearly says ONLY the father knows." .... and for me that's the clear proof that the trinity (at least the way Christians define it) is not in the Bible. That helps me calm down a lot.

 

Thank you again for the time you took to reply to me.

 

Marie

[MarieMonteiro]

8 hours ago, TABA said:

You are not the first person who has come here tormented by the idea that they have committed the unforgivable sin and are hoping that Christianity is not true - and sadly you will not be the last.  But the good news is I have seen people in your situation overcome this, gain the courage to renounce Christianity, and see it lose its power over them.  I’ve seen people like that gain peace and a relief from the anxiety.  It takes time, it often takes professional help, but it has been and can be done!  The freedom and peace you gained before by rejecting this religion can be yours again.  But you must take the advice that @Hierophant and I have given you: to stop reading through christian claims and stories.  It’s important for unbelief to be on a firm foundation, but right now you are too anxious to be able to see clearly.  Once you can get your head clear you will be able to be confident that Christianity, its god, Satan and Hell are all pure myth.  
 

When you have such fears it can be hard to post publicly about them sometimes so feel free to contact me privately if that would help.  
 

Best wishes,

”TABA”

 

Thank you so much for such a kind answer.

 

You and @hierophant are right, I need to get away from those Christian claims, because I can't handle them, I am not thinking rationally. I share all the miraculous claims that scare me with my husband and my parents, and every time they just go "nah... b**shit" and it does not bother them one bit. So I know that it's my mind which is not thinking clearly. My husband says I was psychologically damaged by this religion, that's why it has such a strong hold on me, and I believe he is right... But I know that I left the Christian beliefs years ago, and I lived peacefully for a few years before falling again into the anguishes recently, but now I know that I was able to overcome it once, so I have hope that I'll be able to do it again.

 

Thank you again.

Best regards

Marie

[TABA]

23 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

I share all the miraculous claims that scare me with my husband and my parents, and every time they just go "nah... b**shit" and it does not bother them one bit. So I know that it's my mind which is not thinking clearly. My husband says I was psychologically damaged by this religion, that's why it has such a strong hold on me, and I believe he is right...

 

I think your husband is right.  I'm glad he is supportive.  Was he ever religious himself?  People who never took religion very seriously can have a hard time understanding what it is like.

[MarieMonteiro]

38 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

I think your husband is right.  I'm glad he is supportive.  Was he ever religious himself?  People who never took religion very seriously can have a hard time understanding what it is like.

 

No, he never was religious, so he does not understand how it could bother me. But he is still very compassionate. My parents, on the other hand, were born again Christian, and still they could not care less about miracles now. 

[TABA]

6 minutes ago, MarieMonteiro said:

No, he never was religious, so he does not understand how it could bother me. But he is still very compassionate

Great to hear that he is non-religious and compassionate!  As for understanding how it could bother you, that’s why you were right to come here.  We do understand, and we have a lot of experience helping people leave Christianity behind, having all taken that journey ourselves.  

[Hierophant]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:26 PM, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Hello DarkBishop,

 

Thank you for your answer.

 

I know that about Padre Pio's stigmata, there is the first hand report from the doctor who examined his wounds. The doctor was commissioned by the Vatican because at the time they believed Pio was a charlatan, and so did the doctor commissioned. So they put bandages on Pio's hands that he could not remove, they checked everyday the bandages and after a month the doctor was not happy to see that the wounds had not healed at all, actually they were bleeding even more than before. I read the report from the doctor, who is now dead I suppose, because it was in the 1920s. I can't find it anymore to forward it to you and, honestly, I don't want to search for it too much because it gives me anguishes.

 

 

About the blasphemy, thank you, it gives me some perspective. What helped me calm down as well a lot was that the Trinity is not even in the New Testament, and there is actually one verse in the NT that shatters this doctrine, it's when Jesus says that he does not know the time of his return, only the father who is in heaven knows. Christians will say "aw, he was limited by his earthly condition"... Does not make any sense at all but let's say they are right, Jesus was God on earth but limited. My question for them would be "what about the Holy Spirit? How come only the Father knows and not the Holy Spirit? If he is all knowing and the third person of the tri-une god, he should know too! But Jesus clearly says ONLY the father knows." .... and for me that's the clear proof that the trinity (at least the way Christians define it) is not in the Bible. That helps me calm down a lot.

 

Thank you again for the time you took to reply to me.

 

Marie

 

Hi Marie,

 

Let's put this into perspective, and I want to first address the Padre Pio stigmata claim. I think an important point to make here would be that instead of instantly considering what is possible, we should first consider what is probable. Before we ever starting speculating this was some type of supernatural event, we would have to rule out all natural explanations, and I seriously doubt that work has been done. There are miracle claims across every major, and minor, religion out there. I know because before I deconverted, I looked into this myself. There are stories of holy men in India walking on water, and there are a few examples in this article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/padre-pio-stigmata_b_1112113, stating "Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, is said to have grown breasts when he identified with Radha, the consort of Krishna, in his devotions, and to have sprouted a residual tail when he worshipped Hanuman, the monkey servant of Lord Rama.

I have personally witnessed Sufis stick knives through their cheeks, without any flow of blood or obvious discomfort, while they were in trance. I also watched a living stigmatist, the Syrian Orthodox Sister Susan Kuruvilla in Kerala south India, undergo her weekly "passion of Christ," in which she writhed on her bed in pain as her palms and forehead visibly reddened (but did not bleed.)"

 

When it comes to the "miracle" stories from other religions, do you really buy it, and if not, why? Probably for the same reasons your husband doesn't take much stock in these stories as well. I would put money that if we had the ability to really investigate these claims, 99% would turn out to be faked, made up out of whole cloth, or exaggerated to a great degree. If not that, then never underestimate the power of the mind, and I am thinking of the aforementioned Sufis, or the festival in India where men are seen putting all sorts of objects into their cheeks without bleeding...due to some kind of trance they put themselves in.

 

What is difficult is that it is difficult to find articles debunking these claims. Just doing a quick Google search only provided apologetic websites or websites consisting of supernatural sympathizers (at least for the first few pages of results).

 

Years ago, James Randy had a million dollar challenge for anyone who could come onto his show, and in a controlled environment, demonstrate any type of telepathy, paranormal activity, and the like. Well, the million dollars was never claimed because nobody was able to demonstrate any of that was true.

 

I understand this anxiety you are going through, as TABA said it's the curse of "what-if" syndrome. I dealt with that for a couple of years after I left the faith. Kept wondering if I was missing some key of evidence that would tie it all together and vindicate Christianity. If it exist, I have yet to see it, and not for a lack of trying by the Christians. They will proffer anything, no matter how bizarre, fallacious, and frankly irrelevant to give themselves an excuse to believe.

 

I mentioned this to another member here who is going through a similar dilemma as you are. I think it would do you good to start reading works related to higher criticism, and that will help your brain do a paradigm shift. Right now, you are interpreting the Bible and the world through a lens that blurs reality and makes it difficult to see things for what they are. When I really deep-dived into the stories of people who were once Christians and left, I was able to identify with their stories, their feelings, their thinking, and why they left Christianity....perhaps that would help you to.

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

This may have already been answered, but if it were "proven" that someone could do a miracle, would that "prove" something for you??  What would it solve??

 

Another question comes to my mind.  Is the obsession with this topic a substitute for something else you wrestling with in life?  

[MarieMonteiro]

8 hours ago, Hierophant said:

 

I mentioned this to another member here who is going through a similar dilemma as you are. I think it would do you good to start reading works related to higher criticism, and that will help your brain do a paradigm shift. Right now, you are interpreting the Bible and the world through a lens that blurs reality and makes it difficult to see things for what they are. When I really deep-dived into the stories of people who were once Christians and left, I was able to identify with their stories, their feelings, their thinking, and why they left Christianity....perhaps that would help you to.

 

Thank you again for your answer and your time. What you said about the miracles in the other religions is right, they don't bother me, I automatically consider them fake, because I was not indoctrinated into their beliefs I suppose, and because their religions don't frighten me, when Christianity does... I should apply the same way of thinking for Christian miracles, I know, but I have difficulties doing it, though today I am feeling better. As other said I will stop reading those claims, the further I am from them, the better. 

 

I read many articles by scholars, Bart Erhman especially, and I also read articles by rabbis (even though I don't believe in Judaism either) who explain why they reject Christianity, and deep down I know Christianity cannot be true, though I still struggle with the what if syndrom. Hopefully as time passes I will be able to think logically again. I left Christianity a few years ago already, lived peacefully for a few years until I heard of the miracle of Bernadette Moriau in Lourdes (I'm French, so obviously there are many articles about it in France), and that was the trigger that made me fall into big anguishes again. But I am hopeful that I'll be able to live peacefully again, I already did, I can do it again. Thank you very much for your answers, from everybody here, I really appreciate.

 

Best regards,

Marie 

[Hierophant]

22 hours ago, MarieMonteiro said:

 

Thank you again for your answer and your time. What you said about the miracles in the other religions is right, they don't bother me, I automatically consider them fake, because I was not indoctrinated into their beliefs I suppose, and because their religions don't frighten me, when Christianity does... I should apply the same way of thinking for Christian miracles, I know, but I have difficulties doing it, though today I am feeling better. As other said I will stop reading those claims, the further I am from them, the better. 

 

I read many articles by scholars, Bart Erhman especially, and I also read articles by rabbis (even though I don't believe in Judaism either) who explain why they reject Christianity, and deep down I know Christianity cannot be true, though I still struggle with the what if syndrom. Hopefully as time passes I will be able to think logically again. I left Christianity a few years ago already, lived peacefully for a few years until I heard of the miracle of Bernadette Moriau in Lourdes (I'm French, so obviously there are many articles about it in France), and that was the trigger that made me fall into big anguishes again. But I am hopeful that I'll be able to live peacefully again, I already did, I can do it again. Thank you very much for your answers, from everybody here, I really appreciate.

 

Best regards,

Marie 

 

It's ironic, and almost laughable, but I bet some of the best arguments against Catholics and their miraculous claims are from Protestants, especially evangelicals. When I was a Christian, the vitriol from evangelicals against Catholics was intense. 

 

Addressing your fear of Hell, I would like you to consider something. If Christians want to posit an all-loving, all-knowing, all-good God, then quite frankly the concept of an eternal Hell is just ludicrous. As Dr. Price put it, any type of God capable of that sadism is quite literally worse than Hitler. Apologists can quibble all they want trying to justify eternal torture, but it is bullshit. I do not care who you are, at some point in time, enough is enough. The punishment has met the crime and it is time to move on. What kind of being who "loves us so much" could possibly find satisfaction with that kind of system? 

 

"Forgive thy enemies while I fry mine forever."

 

No way. That type of glee comes from psychopaths like Jonathan Edwards.