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Goodbye Jesus

Life Without Time Or Numbers


chefranden

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Sorry about the length of this, but this is so intriguing, I have only formulated on question.

 

How could you tell these people about the gospel?

 

 

Unlocking the secret sounds of language: Life without time or numbers

 

 

No one knew what the tiny Piraha tribe were humming to each other until one linguist really listened. What he heard is turning our understanding of language on its head

By Elizabeth Davies

Published: 06 May 2006

 

Deep in the heart of the Amazon rainforest, along the banks of the Mai ci river and shaded from the scorching sunlight by a verdant canopy of hanging branches, the linguist Dan Everett is going back to basics with his new class. "Um, dois, tres," he repeats in clearly enunciated Portuguese. "One, two, three." A row of blank faces greets his efforts. This was going to be harder than he had thought.

 

More than 25 years ago, Professor Everett, then a missionary and now an ethnologist at the University of Manchester, decided to try to teach members of the obscure Pirahã tribe how to count. He would not succeed. Instead, he found a world without numbers, without time, one where people appeared to hum and whistle rather than speak.

 

This isolated tribe of some 350 people in tiny villages in the depths of the Brazilian jungle could turn our understanding of language on its head and disprove the main work of one of the world's most celebrated intellectuals, Noam Chomsky.

 

From Professor Everett's first steps on Pirahã land in 1977, he knew the tribe was remarkable. Their language had no words capable of conveying numbers or of counting to even the most basic of figures. It could, he believed, be the world's only language without numbers. But he had to wait months before he could say for sure what made the Pirahã special, so indecipherable was their language, a kind of sing-song communication which has more in common with whistling and humming than the spoken word.

 

During one of his first visits, in the late 1970s, he began to understand what the tribespeople were saying. It was a rude awakening. Eavesdropping one night, desperately trying to piece together what little he knew of their words, he realised with a shock that the warriors, marching along the banks of the river, were planning nothing less than to murder him by moonlight.

 

Professor Everett ran back to the hut and locked his wife and three children inside. "I grabbed all their weapons, their bows and arrows," he says. It was an act of triumph; the outsider had caught them off guard and proved his worth. The tribe was so amazed he had actually worked out what they were saying to each other that they treated him with a cautious kind of respect. From then on, neither he nor his family had problems.

 

In 1980, after many entreaties, Profesor Everett set about trying to teach the Pirahã. For eight months, he tried to explain rudimentary arithmetic to the more eager men and women keen to learn the skills needed to trade at fair prices with other indigenous tribes who arrived looking for brazil nuts.

 

But after months of painstaking, often excruciatingly slow, evening classes, barely any of the Pirahã had managed to count to 10. Even one plus one had proved beyond them. "At first, they wanted to learn to read and write and count," he says. "But by the end, only a few could even manage to get from one to nine. I thought, 'This not working'."

 

Not only did the Pirahã use no numbers in their incredibly sparse language, they also appeared unable to even conceive of them. During the seven years Professor Everett spent with them, he never heard them use words such as "all," "every" and "more". There is one word, "hoi," which comes close to the number one, but it can also mean "small," or a small amount, such as two small fish as opposed to one large one.

 

Peter Gordon, a psycholinguist at New York's Columbia University who has also made the journey deep into the rainforest to explore the Pirahã's numerical skills, performed experiments with the tribespeople, with the bare materials the Pirahã were used to dealing with. He asked them to repeat patterns he created on the ground with batteries, or count how many brazil nuts he had in his hand. The results seemed to show the tribe simply did not understand the concept of numbers.

 

But the tribe's almost total lack of enumeration skills is just one of the Pirahã's many traits which has so fascinated linguists for two decades. The tribe has survived, culture intact, for centuries. "I tried to transcribe everything I heard," says Professor Everett, now a fluent Pirahã speaker. "I tried desperately to find structures I thought every language had but I couldn't find them. I was sure it was my inexperience in not being able to see them, but actually it was that they just weren't there."

 

He believes the Pirahã is the world's only people to have no distinct words for colours. They have no written language, and no collective memory going back further than two generations, meaning few can remember the names of all four grandparents. The members of the tribe, in villages along a 300-km stretch of the Maici, frequently starve themselves even when food is available.

 

The concept of decorative art is alien; even the simplest of drawings provokes intense frustration. They are also believed to be the world's only society to have no creation myth; asked how their ancestors came into existence they say, "The world is created" or "All things are made".

 

The Pirahã language is simple. For men, it can be pared down to just eight consonants and three vowels. Pirahã women have the smallest number of "speech sounds" in the world, with only seven consonants and three vowels. There is no perfect tense, no means of saying, for example, "I have eaten".

 

The Pirahã are a unique people living without time or numbers, without colours or a shared past. And, until recently, that was more than enough to unite anthropologists in shared fascination at this obscure society which seemed to trump everything they thought they knew about language, and humans in general.

 

Many, including Dr Gordon, interpreted the Pirahã's inability to learn to count as evidence for the theory that language shapes the way we think, that we are capable of creating thoughts only for which we already have words. In this theory, espoused initially by the Yale lecturer Benjamin Whorf in the 1930s, the Pirahã could not get to grips with numbers in another language, Portuguese, because their own language had no capacity for it.

 

"A people without terms for numbers doesn't develop the ability to determine exact numbers," Dr Gordon said in Science magazine. "The question is, is there any case where not having words for something doesn't allow you to think about it? I think this is a case for just that." But Professor Everett did not leave it there. "You could say these features of the language, these absences, are all coincidences. I tried to find a common thread to explain why the Pirahã were the way they were."

 

That factor, he found, was all around and yet its significance had never been noticed: the culture and unique way of life of the Pirahã. In a paper published last year, Professor Everett says this, not their language, prevents the Pirahã from counting.

 

Because of their culture's ingrained emphasis on referring only to immediate, personal experiences, the tribesmen do not have words for any abstract concept, from colour to memory and even to numbers. There is no past tense, he says, because everything exists for them in the present. When it can no longer be perceived, it ceases, to all intents, to exist. "In many ways, the Pirahã are the ultimate empiricists," Professor Everett says. "They demand evidence for everything."

 

Life, for the Pirahã, is about seizing the moment and taking pleasure here and now. "I suddenly noticed how excited they were whenever planes crossed the sky then disappeared. They just love sitting around watching people coming around the bend in the jungle. Whenever I came into the village then left, they were amazed."

 

The linguistic limitations of this "carpe diem" culture explain why the Pirahã have no desire to remember where they come from and why they tell no stories.

 

Other aspects of the culture have also had had an undeniable impact on the Pirahã language, Professor Everett says. They have a stubborn belief in their way of doing things that has arguably prevented them from doing things taken for granted in other countries. The Pirahã are capable of, for example, drawing a straight line when they want to make a stick figure to ward off evil spirits, but find writing the number one almost impossible.

 

Actively resistant to Western knowledge, they dropped out of Professor Everett's reading and writing classes when they realised he was trying to write down their language, which had remained purely verbal. "We don't write our language," they said. They told him the reason they had come to the classes was simply that it was fun to all get together in the evening, and Professor Everett made them popcorn.

 

It is easy to understand why the Pirahã have fascinated so many for so long. But what makes Professor Everett's theories so particularly stunning to the linguistic world is that they fundamentally contradict the theories that have dominated the sphere since the mid-20th century. The Pirahã language, Professor Everett claims, is the final nail in the coffin of Noam Chomsky's linguistic legacy, whose hugely influential theory of universal grammar dictates that the human mind has an innate capacity for language and that all languages share certain basic rules which enable children to understand the meaning of complicated syntax.

 

At its core is the concept of "recursion", defined as the ability to build complex ideas by using some thoughts as subparts of others, resulting in subordinate clauses. The Pirahã language has none of these features; every sentence stands alone and refers to a single event. Instead of saying "If it rains, I will not go", the tribe says: "Raining I go not."

 

Professor Everett insists the example of the Pirahã, because of the impact their peculiar culture has had upon their language and way of thinking, strikes a devastating blow to Chomskian theory. "Hypotheses such as universal grammar are inadequate to account for the Pirahã facts because they assume that language evolution has ceased to be shaped by the social life of the species." The Pirahã's grammar, he argues, comes from their culture, not from any pre-existing mental template.

 

Some anthropologists claim Professor Everett attributes too much importance to a vague concept of "culture". Others suggest that, through centuries of inbreeding, the Pirahã are simply intellectually inferior, an argument ProfessorEverett says is baseless. "These people know the names of every species in the jungle. They know the behaviour of all the animals," he says. "They know their environment better than any American knows his. They know so many things we don't, but because we know a few they don't, they are somehow less intelligent. It's ridiculous. As a matter of fact, they think I'm dumb because I have a habit of getting lost in the jungle."

 

Professor Everett's work is likely to be hotly debated. He will head back to Amazon this summer with a bevy of enthusiastic young PhD students to try to introduce others to the Pirahã and to prove his theories. A mark of how seriously the linguistic world takes his studies is that accompanying him will be W Tecumseh Fitch, one of the three architects of the original theory of universal grammar along with Chomsky and Dr Marc Hauser. The expert is keen to see whether the tribe does indeed refute their long-established theory.

 

Professor Everett took almost three decades to solve the riddle of the mysterious Pirahã language, and it will be years before anyone else knows them enough to properly challenge his findings. For now, it seems, their secrets are safe in the heart of the rainforest.

 

Deep in the heart of the Amazon rainforest, along the banks of the Mai ci river and shaded from the scorching sunlight by a verdant canopy of hanging branches, the linguist Dan Everett is going back to basics with his new class. "Um, dois, tres," he repeats in clearly enunciated Portuguese. "One, two, three." A row of blank faces greets his efforts. This was going to be harder than he had thought.

 

More than 25 years ago, Professor Everett, then a missionary and now an ethnologist at the University of Manchester, decided to try to teach members of the obscure Pirahã tribe how to count. He would not succeed. Instead, he found a world without numbers, without time, one where people appeared to hum and whistle rather than speak.

 

This isolated tribe of some 350 people in tiny villages in the depths of the Brazilian jungle could turn our understanding of language on its head and disprove the main work of one of the world's most celebrated intellectuals, Noam Chomsky.

 

From Professor Everett's first steps on Pirahã land in 1977, he knew the tribe was remarkable. Their language had no words capable of conveying numbers or of counting to even the most basic of figures. It could, he believed, be the world's only language without numbers. But he had to wait months before he could say for sure what made the Pirahã special, so indecipherable was their language, a kind of sing-song communication which has more in common with whistling and humming than the spoken word.

 

During one of his first visits, in the late 1970s, he began to understand what the tribespeople were saying. It was a rude awakening. Eavesdropping one night, desperately trying to piece together what little he knew of their words, he realised with a shock that the warriors, marching along the banks of the river, were planning nothing less than to murder him by moonlight.

 

Professor Everett ran back to the hut and locked his wife and three children inside. "I grabbed all their weapons, their bows and arrows," he says. It was an act of triumph; the outsider had caught them off guard and proved his worth. The tribe was so amazed he had actually worked out what they were saying to each other that they treated him with a cautious kind of respect. From then on, neither he nor his family had problems.

 

In 1980, after many entreaties, Profesor Everett set about trying to teach the Pirahã. For eight months, he tried to explain rudimentary arithmetic to the more eager men and women keen to learn the skills needed to trade at fair prices with other indigenous tribes who arrived looking for brazil nuts.

 

But after months of painstaking, often excruciatingly slow, evening classes, barely any of the Pirahã had managed to count to 10. Even one plus one had proved beyond them. "At first, they wanted to learn to read and write and count," he says. "But by the end, only a few could even manage to get from one to nine. I thought, 'This not working'."

 

Not only did the Pirahã use no numbers in their incredibly sparse language, they also appeared unable to even conceive of them. During the seven years Professor Everett spent with them, he never heard them use words such as "all," "every" and "more". There is one word, "hoi," which comes close to the number one, but it can also mean "small," or a small amount, such as two small fish as opposed to one large one.

 

Peter Gordon, a psycholinguist at New York's Columbia University who has also made the journey deep into the rainforest to explore the Pirahã's numerical skills, performed experiments with the tribespeople, with the bare materials the Pirahã were used to dealing with. He asked them to repeat patterns he created on the ground with batteries, or count how many brazil nuts he had in his hand. The results seemed to show the tribe simply did not understand the concept of numbers.

 

But the tribe's almost total lack of enumeration skills is just one of the Pirahã's many traits which has so fascinated linguists for two decades. The tribe has survived, culture intact, for centuries. "I tried to transcribe everything I heard," says Professor Everett, now a fluent Pirahã speaker. "I tried desperately to find structures I thought every language had but I couldn't find them. I was sure it was my inexperience in not being able to see them, but actually it was that they just weren't there."

 

He believes the Pirahã is the world's only people to have no distinct words for colours. They have no written language, and no collective memory going back further than two generations, meaning few can remember the names of all four grandparents. The members of the tribe, in villages along a 300-km stretch of the Maici, frequently starve themselves even when food is available.

 

The concept of decorative art is alien; even the simplest of drawings provokes intense frustration. They are also believed to be the world's only society to have no creation myth; asked how their ancestors came into existence they say, "The world is created" or "All things are made".

 

The Pirahã language is simple. For men, it can be pared down to just eight consonants and three vowels. Pirahã women have the smallest number of "speech sounds" in the world, with only seven consonants and three vowels. There is no perfect tense, no means of saying, for example, "I have eaten".

 

The Pirahã are a unique people living without time or numbers, without colours or a shared past. And, until recently, that was more than enough to unite anthropologists in shared fascination at this obscure society which seemed to trump everything they thought they knew about language, and humans in general.

 

Many, including Dr Gordon, interpreted the Pirahã's inability to learn to count as evidence for the theory that language shapes the way we think, that we are capable of creating thoughts only for which we already have words. In this theory, espoused initially by the Yale lecturer Benjamin Whorf in the 1930s, the Pirahã could not get to grips with numbers in another language, Portuguese, because their own language had no capacity for it.

 

"A people without terms for numbers doesn't develop the ability to determine exact numbers," Dr Gordon said in Science magazine. "The question is, is there any case where not having words for something doesn't allow you to think about it? I think this is a case for just that." But Professor Everett did not leave it there. "You could say these features of the language, these absences, are all coincidences. I tried to find a common thread to explain why the Pirahã were the way they were."

 

That factor, he found, was all around and yet its significance had never been noticed: the culture and unique way of life of the Pirahã. In a paper published last year, Professor Everett says this, not their language, prevents the Pirahã from counting.

 

Because of their culture's ingrained emphasis on referring only to immediate, personal experiences, the tribesmen do not have words for any abstract concept, from colour to memory and even to numbers. There is no past tense, he says, because everything exists for them in the present. When it can no longer be perceived, it ceases, to all intents, to exist. "In many ways, the Pirahã are the ultimate empiricists," Professor Everett says. "They demand evidence for everything."

 

Life, for the Pirahã, is about seizing the moment and taking pleasure here and now. "I suddenly noticed how excited they were whenever planes crossed the sky then disappeared. They just love sitting around watching people coming around the bend in the jungle. Whenever I came into the village then left, they were amazed."

 

The linguistic limitations of this "carpe diem" culture explain why the Pirahã have no desire to remember where they come from and why they tell no stories.

 

Other aspects of the culture have also had had an undeniable impact on the Pirahã language, Professor Everett says. They have a stubborn belief in their way of doing things that has arguably prevented them from doing things taken for granted in other countries. The Pirahã are capable of, for example, drawing a straight line when they want to make a stick figure to ward off evil spirits, but find writing the number one almost impossible.

 

Actively resistant to Western knowledge, they dropped out of Professor Everett's reading and writing classes when they realised he was trying to write down their language, which had remained purely verbal. "We don't write our language," they said. They told him the reason they had come to the classes was simply that it was fun to all get together in the evening, and Professor Everett made them popcorn.

 

It is easy to understand why the Pirahã have fascinated so many for so long. But what makes Professor Everett's theories so particularly stunning to the linguistic world is that they fundamentally contradict the theories that have dominated the sphere since the mid-20th century. The Pirahã language, Professor Everett claims, is the final nail in the coffin of Noam Chomsky's linguistic legacy, whose hugely influential theory of universal grammar dictates that the human mind has an innate capacity for language and that all languages share certain basic rules which enable children to understand the meaning of complicated syntax.

 

At its core is the concept of "recursion", defined as the ability to build complex ideas by using some thoughts as subparts of others, resulting in subordinate clauses. The Pirahã language has none of these features; every sentence stands alone and refers to a single event. Instead of saying "If it rains, I will not go", the tribe says: "Raining I go not."

 

Professor Everett insists the example of the Pirahã, because of the impact their peculiar culture has had upon their language and way of thinking, strikes a devastating blow to Chomskian theory. "Hypotheses such as universal grammar are inadequate to account for the Pirahã facts because they assume that language evolution has ceased to be shaped by the social life of the species." The Pirahã's grammar, he argues, comes from their culture, not from any pre-existing mental template.

 

Some anthropologists claim Professor Everett attributes too much importance to a vague concept of "culture". Others suggest that, through centuries of inbreeding, the Pirahã are simply intellectually inferior, an argument ProfessorEverett says is baseless. "These people know the names of every species in the jungle. They know the behaviour of all the animals," he says. "They know their environment better than any American knows his. They know so many things we don't, but because we know a few they don't, they are somehow less intelligent. It's ridiculous. As a matter of fact, they think I'm dumb because I have a habit of getting lost in the jungle."

 

Professor Everett's work is likely to be hotly debated. He will head back to Amazon this summer with a bevy of enthusiastic young PhD students to try to introduce others to the Pirahã and to prove his theories. A mark of how seriously the linguistic world takes his studies is that accompanying him will be W Tecumseh Fitch, one of the three architects of the original theory of universal grammar along with Chomsky and Dr Marc Hauser. The expert is keen to see whether the tribe does indeed refute their long-established theory.

 

Professor Everett took almost three decades to solve the riddle of the mysterious Pirahã language, and it will be years before anyone else knows them enough to properly challenge his findings. For now, it seems, their secrets are safe in the heart of the rainforest.

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Just a warning to everyone, Chef posted the article twice in a row, so it's not as daunting as people think.

 

Amazing article, very interesting.

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Cool articles Chef!

 

Reading the article reminded me that humans don't have memories until they aquire language skills, and how important it is.

 

Taph

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Cool articles Chef!

 

Reading the article reminded me that humans don't have memories until they aquire language skills, and how important it is.

 

Taph

 

Indeed. One of the finest inventions by humans: Racial Memory. Language provides a mechanism to pass on knowledge from one generation to the next, and even allows skipping several generations.

 

Eliminated the need to re-discover hard-won lessons each and every generation.

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Other aspects of the culture have also had had an undeniable impact on the Pirahã language, Professor Everett says. They have a stubborn belief in their way of doing things that has arguably prevented them from doing things taken for granted in other countries. The Pirahã are capable of, for example, drawing a straight line when they want to make a stick figure to ward off evil spirits, but find writing the number one almost impossible.

 

:)Chef... thanks for another amazing article!

 

I found it interesting that they have basically the knowledge of only today... barely able to remember the names of their 4 grandparents... and yet there is still a belief in evil spirits! I'm curious as to why it seems it is our nature to create an understanding, for what we do not know, beyond our own demensions of living. There seems to be a globally pervasive inborn belief that everything was created, not just always was, and that there is an acceptance of an aspect beyond our ability to recognize it by our five senses. Why do you think that is?

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I found it interesting that they have basically the knowledge of only today... barely able to remember the names of their 4 grandparents... and yet there is still a belief in evil spirits! I'm curious as to why it seems it is our nature to create an understanding, for what we do not know, beyond our own demensions of living. There seems to be a globally pervasive inborn belief that everything was created, not just always was, and that there is an acceptance of an aspect beyond our ability to recognize it by our five senses. Why do you think that is?

 

As far as creation, I would think it would have something to do with how we come into being. We don't exist and then we do. The process can be like magic for those who don't know the science of it. God was first a woman, after all.

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is there any case where not having words for something doesn't allow you to think about it? I think this is a case for just that."

 

In my massive ignorance on the subject I have been toying with the theory for some time that language is the only thing that separates us from other animals and that without language, even a human will not be self aware. This seems to fit within the hypothesis. It's a very interesting subject and I think that somewhere here is the clue that leads to the answer of who we humans really are. An imperfect metaphor would be that humans are like a computer. If no language is loaded, the computer can't function at the capacity that it is capable of functioning.

 

I recall finding myself frustrated and a bit shocked when reflecting on my university education. I've always prided myself in being a free thinker and have self deluded myself at times into thinking that my thoughts are unique. In fact though I noticed that my thinking patterns followed my education and that the more education I gained, the more my patterns would morph. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it is reality that we humans are to a degree walking computers and that our patterns of thought are limited by what we have studied.

 

This does leave room for a lot of unknowns. If the tribe in the article cannot fathom numbers or time, what truths or realities are out there that we as a human community cannot yet fathom?

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My oldest daughter is highly gifted. She just gets complex concepts with little effort.

 

I think it may have something to do with the fact that as soon as she was born, I spoke to her constantly as though she could understand me. I took her with me everywhere I went and explained to her what we doing. I showed her things, holding them up to my two week old baby, and explaining to her everything about it. Yes, people looked at me like I was nuts, but oh well! I was going for having someone to have an intellectual conversation with down the road, because that wasn't possible with her father. (However, I didn't count on her becoming a teenager and not wanting to talk to me.)

 

She started talking at 10 months and by the time she was 15 months she could talk in sentences. I played lots of word association and language games with her. As a result, she could read and write by the time she entered first grade and was teaching herself cursive writing.

 

She does get complex concepts with little effort, however the simple eludes her. If it's not complex enough, she doesn't understand it. It's just not the way her brain works. She struggled in American History, barely getting a C and barely passed the Constitution test. I had never had to help her with her homework before. We would read and re-read the paragraph on American History where an answer was, until finally frustrated I just told her the answer. She'd say, "No, it's not. That's way too obvious." Ugh!

 

Taph

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Looks like the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge™ don't grow in them thar parts. :mellow:

 

 

I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:

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Looks like the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge don't grow in them thar parts. :mellow:

 

:)Hey Fwee... sure it does... it's right by the trees of Aesop's Fables! Heck, I think the tree of the Cute Bunny is there too. Sheesh Fwee... you must have missed it. Where is everyone getting all those Cute Bunnies then? :huh:

 

I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:

 

Huh? :huh:

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Unlocking the secret sounds of language: Life without time or numbers

 

No one knew what the tiny Piraha tribe were humming to each other until one linguist really listened. What he heard is turning our understanding of language on its head

By Elizabeth Davies

Published: 06 May 2006

If I remember well, these claims are a bit exaggarated. There are linguists out there that are fetishists of linguistic exotics. They also find languages without verbs or nouns like "Riau Indonesian" for example. I will check Everett's claims about the Pirahã's for a second.
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There seems to be a globally pervasive inborn belief that everything was created, not just always was, and that there is an acceptance of an aspect beyond our ability to recognize it by our five senses. Why do you think that is?

It is a fascinating question. I would not say it is an inborn belief neccessarily, but rather something we ascribe to explain the world. One possible explaination would be that humans observe nature as a system of life, and see that life comes from life. In a true sense, everything was in fact created. It simply becomes a matter of how we describe that creation using language, either mythologically and rationally. In either case, the observation is vaild that it was created.

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:)Saviourmachine... good to see you!

 

I've read those articles you sited... yet not the extended articles made reference to in each of those articles. Their may be the conflict of their ability to enumerate ideas, or have language to meet their concepts for their lifestyle, however they do agree on many things. They both claim they speak about the past as though they are living it now. It is generally to convey a meaningful message.

 

Your articles seem to think their way of life is NOT related to mentally challenged conditions, as their are females that have had children with Brazilian visitors. Their clothing seems to suggest some kind of associations with the outside too. These outside influences have not influenced them at all? I know these Brazilian people are generally very religious oriented. Do you know anything about their spiritual insights, given their isolated position, and their tendency to live in the present. I wonder if they have even considered an afterlife. :shrug:

 

It is a fascinating question. I would not say it is an inborn belief neccessarily, but rather something we ascribe to explain the world. One possible explaination would be that humans observe nature as a system of life, and see that life comes from life. In a true sense, everything was in fact created. It simply becomes a matter of how we describe that creation using language, either mythologically and rationally. In either case, the observation is vaild that it was created.

 

:)Antlerman... it is hard to imagine eternal in both directions of time, isn't it? Was everything created, or is there just a transitioning process of something that always was, is, and will be? I've been created differently today by the experiences in my life since yesterday... is that creation, or is that just a transition? :shrug:

 

The mindset always seems to lean towards being created. I suppose it is like a mother creating a child? As you know... the problem then becomes, where did the mother come from then? It takes an Atheist to ask... then where did God come from then? :wink:

 

 

:scratch:

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I've read those articles you sited... yet not the extended articles made reference to in each of those articles. Their may be the conflict of their ability to enumerate ideas, or have language to meet their concepts for their lifestyle, however they do agree on many things. They both claim they speak about the past as though they are living it now. It is generally to convey a meaningful message.
Afterlife. I suppose they haven't, but in general the quality of the article was not very good. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis connects mental abilities with speech. Quite conservative by the way, these kind of forces opposed also degraded the nature of a sign language for example. As if speech is that important... Of course, at the other side of the coin, there are people who believe in Universal Grammar (Chomskians). The truth is - like often - most probably somewhere in between. There are maybe some structures that makes it possible that we communicate in a linguistic way. If these are symbolic and rule-based, I dunno.

 

I don't say that the memory systems involved in calculating can not differ from human to human or even from race to race. The digit span is different from verbal short-term memory [sTM] span (the amount of chunks that fit into STM). Just like for example less signs from a sign language fit into the phonological loop of someone that comprehends sign language. (The phonological loop contains also a rehearsal mechanism and STM. Chinese can utter their digits faster and can store more digits in their STM is another remarkable observation. I would't be surprised if having only count and mass nouns and no other words for digits wouldn't influence mathematical fluency. But "numerical cognition without words" does not equal "life without numbers".

 

I find it very interesting that it doesn't have relative clauses like "that" in English. For example: the dog that chased the cat that jumped into the tree that fell down.

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Life without time or numbers is like Christianity without lies or ignorance. It could go on, but it sure would make things tough.

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:
Huh? :huh:
I was talking about this little line from the article.

 

The members of the tribe, in villages along a 300-km stretch of the Maici, frequently starve themselves even when food is available.
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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:

 

Because they don't know how much food there is.

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:
Because they don't know how much food there is.
:mellow:

 

Are you being stupid again? :scratch:

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:

Well, it does mention somewhere in the article that they don't have anything equivalent to "Have you eaten?" (or any interrogatives, I think). That might be part of the problem, there - they just don't understand the concept of asking about food, maybe?

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:
Well, it does mention somewhere in the article that they don't have anything equivalent to "Have you eaten?" (or any interrogatives, I think). That might be part of the problem, there - they just don't understand the concept of asking about food, maybe?
Come on now...

 

I think we're underestimating their intelligence here. My dog doesn't know how to ask for food, but he surely knows where it's at when he gets hungry. These people aren't stupid. They just don't use numbers or an extensive vocabulary. That's all.

 

I was hoping for some sort of reason as to why they starve themselves, not an excuse. :shrug:

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:
Because they don't know how much food there is.
:mellow:

 

Are you being stupid again? :scratch:

 

I think the entire tribe is fucking with this guy.

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I don't understand why they starve themselves even when food is available though. :Hmm:
Because they don't know how much food there is.
:mellow:

 

Are you being stupid again? :scratch:

I think the entire tribe is fucking with this guy.
You think when he leaves, they whip out the computers and surf for porn?
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Chinese can utter their digits faster and can store more digits in their STM is another remarkable observation.

 

Interesting to consider all the chinese digits are one syllable.

 

ling yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu shi

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

 

The chinese word for twelve, for example, is shi er. thirteen is shi san. Twenty is er shi, thirty is san shi.

 

Chinese phone numbers (without country or area codes) are 8 digits, not 7. Mobile numbers are 11 digits.

 

Chinese schoolchildren like to chant increasingly complex digit patterns while dancing/playing/jumping rope etc.

They also do an eye-massage exercise between classes while listening to a PA announcement of a changing digit chant sequence. Different digit combinations instruct the students to do a different eye-massage routine.

 

No small wonder the chinese have a mastery of digits and digit sequences.

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They also do an eye-massage exercise between classes while listening to a PA announcement of a changing digit chant sequence. Different digit combinations instruct the students to do a different eye-massage routine.

 

No small wonder the chinese have a mastery of digits and digit sequences.

Now wonder their eyes look like that too. :HaHa:
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