Christians Were Not To Blame!

[Interested Atheist]

I remember having this argument on Bibleforums - not the best thread I ever wrote, to be honest - and I've just read some articles by Farrell Till which reminded me about it. So here's the argument, and what I think of it:

 

Skeptic: Christianity, throughout it's history, is to blame for many atrocitis - wars, witchunts, the Crusades, bigotry, repression, Spanish Inquisition, etc.

 

Christian: No - those were not evil acts (insert apologetics trying to justify one or another atrocity)

 

Skeptic: Yes they were! (insert counterargument showing that the aforementioned Christian atrocity was an evil act).

 

Christian: Even if it was evil, those people weren't Christians, so Christianity isn't to blame!

 

Skeptic: What do you mean they weren't Christians? They called themselves Christians!

 

Christian: They weren't REAL Christians. Anyway, what about all the atrocities committed by atheists? Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler? (a highly debatable point, the last one!)

 

 

To see an illuminating example of this kind of discussion, see these articles:

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/...1/991front.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../3/993blame.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/...4/994cheap.html

 

Here's what I think:

1. Certainly it's true that there were people who committed atrocities and claimed that they were acting on Christian principles. Agreed? Right!

2. If those people WEREN'T real true Christians, then what were the RTC doing? All through history, they seem to have been very quiet! Where were the RTC's when the Inquisition was murdering people, the Crusades were committing genocide, Hitler was knocking off the Jews in the 1930's?

3. What makes you think that you're right and the atrocity-committing Christian-claimers are wrong? Take a look at the Bible. Can we find any examples of moral atrocities committed there that were sanctioned by God? Is it possible that it might be the Crusaders, Inquisitors and Jew-killers who were right after all?

4. Finally, it doesn't matter a good goddamn if these criminals really weren't true Christians - they thought they were! And if they were misled or deceived about the nature of Christianity - well, you must admit, the Bible is a book that lends itself readily to violent misinterpretation! That's the whole thing, the real issue. Christianity may or may not be to blame because crimes were committed in it's name - but it is to blame for creating an environment that fostered and encouraged violent impulses, and then for not opposing the atrocities that naturally occurred.

[SkepticOfBible]

It's the good old No True Scotsman Fallacy being used

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/noscotsman.htm

 

Since this rationalization is completely subjective, it renders the definition of a "true" Christian virtually meaningless.

A "true" Christian is based on personal preference and nothing more.

This isn't surprising since the Bible itself means whatever Christians want it to mean.

 

Pol Pot, Stalin

 

The difference is that they were not killing them for their atheistic beliefs(Killing in the name of "no god" but rather on the basis of personal and idealogical beliefs.

 

Xtians on the other hand claimed a divine mandate, just like the ones you debated, and the justification is right there in the bible

[loves_learning]

Yes, there seems to be no universal definition of a TRUE Christian...hence all of the battles between them.

 

I got into an argument with a coworker the other day about that. She said that no TRUE Christian could accept that gays were ok, b/c the Bible says so, right? *gag* Anyway, she has two visible tatoos on her feet (of course, they are Xn symbols) and I pointed to them and said that the Bible says you shouldn't get tatooed either. She then said huffily that "That's in the Old Testament." Well!!! I quickly pointed out that the verses about homosexuality are in the OT, and that the verses in the NT aren't clearly against it, she walked away pissed off. Oh...she also didn't like MY definition of evangelical Xns...I said that they were the one's knocking on your door or showing up at abortion rights rallies telling you you're going to hell. hehehehehe.

[Interested Atheist]

I didn't know about tattoos, but I do know that the Bible forbids divorce, defining it as adultery. But Christians get divorced quite happily. So what's that about? Answer: they quite simply weighed it up and decided that avoiding the part of the Bible about getting divorced would make life much easier and so it wasn't necessary to pay attention to it. In other words, they brought their outdated Bronze Age superstitions into line with popular morality. Why not do that with gays? Well, that's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! isn't it?

[deepblue]

George Bush (that stupid prick) believes God told him to invade Iraq.

 

Just thought I'd throw in a modern example :-).

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Pol Pot, Stalin

 

The difference is that they were not killing them for their atheistic beliefs(Killing in the name of "no god" but rather on the basis of personal and idealogical beliefs.

 

 

 

I don't think that's quite right. Stalin and the other Russian communists did

execute Eastern Orthodox priests and other religionists precisely for their

religious beliefs. From this article in Wikipedia::

 

As for the Russian Orthodox Church, Soviet authorities have sought to control it and, in times of national crisis, to exploit it for the regime's own purposes; but their ultimate goal has been to eliminate it. During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled. Believers were harassed and persecuted. Most seminaries were closed, and publication of most religious material was prohibited. By 1941 only 500 churches remained open out of about 54,000 in existence prior to World War I.

 

 

However:

 

(1) The number of christians killed by atheists is quite tiny, compared

to the number of christians killed by other christians for not being

"True Christians";

 

(2) Christians cannot use the atrocities of any religious or non-religious

group to justify their own atrocities. Especially not since they claim

to have an all-powerful gawd on their side, and literally "indwelling"

inside of them.

 

(3) I don't see any of the fundy christians decrying the wanton slaughter

of civilians in Iraq. Sure, they're all Muslims, but since when did

"Thou shalt not murder" have a proviso about Muslims? All that

matters to fundies is that George W. is a christian who talks to

gawd, and if gawd told him to invade Eye-raq and wipe out a bunch

of "ragheads," so be it. Do you see the "indwelling of the Holy

Ghost" in any of this? I sure don't.....

[Interested Atheist]

I'd say that there's a fine distinction about Stalin. Yes, he was killing them for their religious beliefs - but he wasn't killing them out of his atheistic ones. Put it like this, was Stalin thinking "I don't believe in God and these people do - therefore they must die", or was he thinking "These people are a threat to my power, therefore they must die."

 

HOWEVER, I'd like to note that even if Stalin did murder people because he felt being an atheist impelled him to, this is not the issue. The central point is this:

 

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. That's all; there are no implied consequences.

 

Christianity is a system of thought that teaches, and has taught, people to be exclusionist and delusionary, a system of belief that encourages and endorses a wide range of behaviours, including repression, bigotry, murder and warfare.

[Japedo]

I didn't know about tattoos.....

 

 

 

Just for the record, and for purposes of discussion, Leviticus 19:28 is the verse you're looking for about the tattoos.

 

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead nor print any marks upon you I am the LORD

[Toxic]

When I point out christian atrocities to fmaily members they just say "that's not God, that's man!"

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

I'd say that there's a fine distinction about Stalin. Yes, he was killing them for their religious beliefs - but he wasn't killing them out of his atheistic ones. Put it like this, was Stalin thinking "I don't believe in God and these people do - therefore they must die", or was he thinking "These people are a threat to my power, therefore they must die."

 

Why couldn't he have more than one reason to kill them?

 

 

HOWEVER, I'd like to note that even if Stalin did murder people because he felt being an atheist impelled him to, this is not the issue. The central point is this:

 

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. That's all; there are no implied consequences.

 

That's true, in and of itself. But people can become fanatical about any position.

It's something that we all have to guard against, regardless of what we do or

do not believe.

 

 

Christianity is a system of thought that teaches, and has taught, people to be exclusionist and delusionary, a system of belief that encourages and endorses a wide range of behaviours, including repression, bigotry, murder and warfare.

 

 

It's because christians can't possibly believe that anyone else can be right.

It's ingrained in their theology. There's only one path to gawd, there's only

one path to the truth, and it's theirs. And this becomes really dangerous

when they get into power.

 

With atheism, you have to choose to become a fanatic before you cause

any damage to anyone else. With christianity, you have to choose to

ignore the religion's inherent fanaticism, to avoid doing any damage to

anyone else.

 

When I point out christian atrocities to fmaily members they just say "that's not God, that's man!"

 

 

Yeah, he seems to be especially impotent or indifferent when it

comes to atrocities committed in his name....over and over and

over again. He either can't do anything about them, or he doesn't

care. That's some wonderful gawd they have there.

 

[Guest BradtheImpaler]

The "They weren't really Christians" escape button comes in quite handy for the fundamentalist. It's also automatically pressed when they are confronted with the testimonies of Ex-Christians

[RedPillAddict]

The "They weren't really Christians" escape button comes in quite handy for the fundamentalist. It's also automatically pressed when they are confronted with the testimonies of Ex-Christians

The "easy" button.

[Ouroboros]

Won't that create a rip or vortex in the time continuum or something?

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Won't that create a rip or vortex in the time continuum or something?

 

 

Nah, it just keeps christian fundies stupid.

[Rachelness]

I don't think you can blame Christianity for those atrocities. Any excuse or ideology can be used and exploited to land grab or murder. Besides, modern Christianity is nothing like the Christianity of the Crusades or the Inquisition, so I can understand why modern Christians would find such an argument frustrating or even irrelevant. It IS a lot like a Christian blaming the atrocities commited by Stalin or Mao on atheism. JMO.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

Why not do that with gays? Well, that's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! isn't it?

 

Of course! Until THEY are coming out of the closet personally. Then they'll decide to ignore that part too.

 

Of course, by the time they decide to come out of the closet, they'll hopefully have left xianity in the dirt where it belongs.

[Guest Catholic]

Annoying argument heard it 100 times before and the Christian that says that should simply be beat to death with a stick of sausage. there are so many more better arguments. here is a good one Atheism throughout history is responsible for many wars and Death of Millions of people. in fact Atheist have been responsible for more deaths than any other religion, and considering it hasnt been a major religion but for the last aprox. 150 years that is incredible. (Stalin is a great example but lets not forget the other communists and Hitler, oh and those African dictators either). and by the way The Spanish Inquisition(TSI) and the Crusades are very bad examples too use, a Historian would first smack you then call you an idiot. (TSI: Spains defense against invading forces, the equal to the U.S.A. Red scare. Fact: Inquisition Courts were prefered to Local Courts during this time)(Crusades: to explain the crusades let me put it this way, why dont i come into your house kill all your family and throw you out on the streets. then tell you that you do not have a right to take back what i have taken from you. Muslims Killed thousands of Christians and Jews and stole {yes they Stole} the Holy Land. Jews had it for thousands of years before them and Christians had it for 700 years before their "Prophet" came.)

[Guest Catholic]

It's the good old No True Scotsman Fallacy being used

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/noscotsman.htm

 

Since this rationalization is completely subjective, it renders the definition of a "true" Christian virtually meaningless.

A "true" Christian is based on personal preference and nothing more.

This isn't surprising since the Bible itself means whatever Christians want it to mean.

 

Pol Pot, Stalin

 

The difference is that they were not killing them for their atheistic beliefs(Killing in the name of "no god" but rather on the basis of personal and idealogical beliefs.

 

Xtians on the other hand claimed a divine mandate, just like the ones you debated, and the justification is right there in the bible

I wish people like that would Shut up!!!!

"X is wrong"

"Why is X wrong"

"be cause the bible says so."

freaking idiot, if you cant defend your argument with Logic then shut up. ok so homosexuallity is actually a pretty easy argument to make, especially to Atheists. Homosexuality goes agains the Natural law, it is a Pycological disorder often times caused by Molestation in Childhood. it can come about in adolescence especially young adolescence when minds are most impressionable. the Adolescent will often time "experiment" durring early adolescence the release of the hormone oxytocin causes an extreem bond and can often time lend itself to imprinting the bond to the gender the major burst first experienced. brian washing can also lead to homosexuallity, it is Fact that students who are constantly refered to as "gay" or "fag" are 10 times more likely to turn out homosexual. With treatment however the individual can lead a normal life.

[white_raven23]

Hitler was not an atheist you apologetic drone.

 

http://www.creationtheory.org/Morality/Hitler.shtml

Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), or that he was an altar boy in his youth, or that he once told General Gerhart Engel that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". None of them knew that his infamous "Mein Kampf" contains phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (among many, many other things; see my page on Hitler's Religion for more). None of them knew that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

[Guest Catholic]

Hitler was not an atheist you apologetic drone.

 

http://www.creationtheory.org/Morality/Hitler.shtml

Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), or that he was an altar boy in his youth, or that he once told General Gerhart Engel that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". None of them knew that his infamous "Mein Kampf" contains phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (among many, many other things; see my page on Hitler's Religion for more). None of them knew that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

you have idiocy and you have stupidity please take your pick. Hitler Left the Catholic Church as a youth. that is a known Fact. he also tried to capture and at one point Kill the pope, now if that is a good catholic then i dont ever want to meet a bad one. Hitler was a Practicing Pagan its a Historical Fact. (by the way i have read mein Kampf i actually own a copy) Hilter used Christianity as propaganda.

[Antlerman]

I wish people like that would Shut up!!!!

"X is wrong"

"Why is X wrong"

"be cause the bible says so."

freaking idiot, if you cant defend your argument with Logic then shut up. ok so homosexuallity is actually a pretty easy argument to make, especially to Atheists. Homosexuality goes agains the Natural law, it is a Pycological disorder often times caused by Molestation in Childhood. it can come about in adolescence especially young adolescence when minds are most impressionable. the Adolescent will often time "experiment" durring early adolescence the release of the hormone oxytocin causes an extreem bond and can often time lend itself to imprinting the bond to the gender the major burst first experienced. brian washing can also lead to homosexuallity, it is Fact that students who are constantly refered to as "gay" or "fag" are 10 times more likely to turn out homosexual. With treatment however the individual can lead a normal life.

Whoaaaaa!!!! I totally misread your first post in the other thread. I suspected you were an open minded, fair minded, intellegent person who had a good heart. If this is the real you talking above, I retract my kind welcomes to you.

 

Who the fuck are you to say that atheists are evil you ignorant shit for brains? Atheism isn't a belief system, it's simply not having a god as part of their world view. None of the insane individuals you listed were acting out of some doctrine of atheism .

 

I'm not going to purue any dialog with you. You are an insincere person with some serious problems. I really, really hope if they actually let an ass like you into the priesthood, you don't fuck too many people's heads up on your way to the hell your silly beliefs created. You're an offense to humanity.

[white_raven23]

Hitler was not an atheist you apologetic drone.

 

http://www.creationtheory.org/Morality/Hitler.shtml

Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), or that he was an altar boy in his youth, or that he once told General Gerhart Engel that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". None of them knew that his infamous "Mein Kampf" contains phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (among many, many other things; see my page on Hitler's Religion for more). None of them knew that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

you have idiocy and you have stupidity please take your pick. Hitler Left the Catholic Church as a youth. that is a known Fact. he also tried to capture and at one point Kill the pope, now if that is a good catholic then i dont ever want to meet a bad one. Hitler was a Practicing Pagan its a Historical Fact. (by the way i have read mein Kampf i actually own a copy) Hilter used Christianity as propaganda.

 

So the direct quotes from Mein Kampf...from Hitler himself that are mentioned in the quote I posted....are what then?

 

Hitler declared himself a catholic to that General Gerhart Engel.

 

Where does he declare himself a pagan?

 

If the pope says: "I'm catholic" then goes and does something a LOT of people don't like......somehow that magically makes him "less" of a catholic in the eyes of the masses. SkepticOfBible's "No True Scotsman" comparison is perfectly true, and you just proved it by ignoring and denying the belief declaration that came from Hitler's OWN LIPS.

[Abiyoyo]

I didn't know about tattoos, but I do know that the Bible forbids divorce, defining it as adultery. But Christians get divorced quite happily. So what's that about? Answer: they quite simply weighed it up and decided that avoiding the part of the Bible about getting divorced would make life much easier and so it wasn't necessary to pay attention to it. In other words, they brought their outdated Bronze Age superstitions into line with popular morality. Why not do that with gays? Well, that's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! isn't it?

 

I completely agree with that comment.

 

Hitler was not an atheist you apologetic drone.

 

http://www.creationtheory.org/Morality/Hitler.shtml

Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), or that he was an altar boy in his youth, or that he once told General Gerhart Engel that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". None of them knew that his infamous "Mein Kampf" contains phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (among many, many other things; see my page on Hitler's Religion for more). None of them knew that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

you have idiocy and you have stupidity please take your pick. Hitler Left the Catholic Church as a youth. that is a known Fact. he also tried to capture and at one point Kill the pope, now if that is a good catholic then i dont ever want to meet a bad one. Hitler was a Practicing Pagan its a Historical Fact. (by the way i have read mein Kampf i actually own a copy) Hilter used Christianity as propaganda.

 

 

Maybe he became upset as did Martin Luither, except displayed his God allowed anger. Please remeber, through all the "christian" talk in the world today; the one single thing that most christians in either denomination forget is that if God had not given authority to anyone protraying or demonstrating an act of evil, then it would have never have happened.

 

That my friend is what the leader said, Jesus; as he stood in front of Pilate.

[Asimov]

freaking idiot, if you cant defend your argument with Logic then shut up. ok so homosexuallity is actually a pretty easy argument to make, especially to Atheists. Homosexuality goes agains the Natural law, it is a Pycological disorder often times caused by Molestation in Childhood. it can come about in adolescence especially young adolescence when minds are most impressionable. the Adolescent will often time "experiment" durring early adolescence the release of the hormone oxytocin causes an extreem bond and can often time lend itself to imprinting the bond to the gender the major burst first experienced. brian washing can also lead to homosexuallity, it is Fact that students who are constantly refered to as "gay" or "fag" are 10 times more likely to turn out homosexual. With treatment however the individual can lead a normal life.

 

Being retarded is genetic and you seem to have inherited it.

[Interested Atheist]

Gnosis of Disbelief said:

"With atheism, you have to choose to become a fanatic before you cause

any damage to anyone else. With christianity, you have to choose to

ignore the religion's inherent fanaticism, to avoid doing any damage to

anyone else."

 

Thanks a lot, Gnosis! that's just the way I wanted to put it! now, whenever I get into this debate again, and someone says "atheists committed atrocities too", I'll point that out. It's not that there are bad people there are rotten apples in every barrel; it's that Christianity is a system of thought that encourages rottenness!

 

 

Rachelness said:

I don't think you can blame Christianity for those atrocities. Any excuse or ideology can be used and exploited to land grab or murder. Besides, modern Christianity is nothing like the Christianity of the Crusades or the Inquisition, so I can understand why modern Christians would find such an argument frustrating or even irrelevant. It IS a lot like a Christian blaming the atrocities commited by Stalin or Mao on atheism. JMO.

 

 

The thing is, Christians have not generally apologised for their atrocities.

Atrocities in the Old Testament (part of their religion, even if it was before they were around): not only do they not apologise for them, they venerate and glorify them.

Atrocities in New Testament: Ditto. Hell is, depending on which Christian you ask, either a WONDERFUL idea for those evil bastards who don't convert, or a deeply regrettable mistake - God's hands are tied - very sad - you know, the only people who go to hell are the ones who choose to!

 

Now, as to saying that Christians today are a lot different from the ones who burned the witches and conducted the Crusades - well, yes, undeniably true. But why is this? Is it because Christianity changed, evolved, became kinder and gentler? No! It's because people just decided to stop taking it so seriously. They invented apologetics and became salad bar Christians. They didn't change their Iron age philosophies. They diluted them.

 

So this is why Christians should be challenged with the atrocities of their religion: (1) because they've never apologised or repented for them, and therefore support them by default; (2) because there's absolutely no guarantee that they won't go back to being foaming warrior bigots; the system is waiting for them to do so. As Gnosis pointed out, in order to be a Christian you have to restrain yourself from the fanaticism inherent in Christianity.