Heaven

[Guest JP]

As a christian i never really belivied in heaven - seemed too good to be true - i was interested in science etc - i was only a watered down liberal - typical UK style although attended church more than the average. The irony is that the discovery of fundamnelttism deconverted me and now i fear hell. Why do i fear hell if as a christian i never invested in heaven?!!!

 

Religion instills you with fears that don't make sense.

 

Stick around ExC; it helps with those kinds of fears.

[KT45]

I remember getting upset when they said my I couldn't see my pets in heaven. How dare they say Rosco(my dog that died) would never go to heaven? I agrued with the pastor most of sunday school that day. My first disliking of fundies happened at the age of 10. my first step at deconversion and I didn't even know!

[Guest Jane]

You know, I really bought into heaven and looked forward to it from the beginning, maybe thanks to my imagination? It was my escape route. Beauty everywhere, no pain or sorrow, complete acceptance, sitting at my "Fathers" feet, and couldn't wait for the singing. Am I making you sick? Sorry. It's been a hard thing to let go.

 

But, since I have come to unbelief I am becoming proactive about my life which is extremely exciting. Although, I do struggle with anger at the way I dealt with life before now. My belief that my "real life" would be in heaven caused me to not be present in this world. Swallowed most of my feelings and thoughts and desires, allowed myself to be dominated ......believing that this would be rewarded in heaven someday.

[Guest sinistral]

I remember sitting in church hearing over and over so much about hell and suffering, and you don´t want to be there etc., that I was more afraid of ending up there than going to heaven. I just wanted to live in the here and now and not be terrified about what may happen to me after I die!!!

[Wade]

no.....it never did sound good to me....but at the time I would never admit that to myself....aaahhhh the brainwashing......and the pet thing got to me as well...I was told "NO! pets don't have souls!!".....so I am going to spend enternity with the people I go to church with.....but my dog...my best "buddy"....the one who understood "unconditional love"....isn't good enough for heaven??

 

 

No...deep down in side...even as a child ...it was fear of hell....not the promise of heaven

[Lola Getz]

I remember getting upset when they said my I couldn't see my pets in heaven. How dare they say Rosco(my dog that died) would never go to heaven? I agrued with the pastor most of sunday school that day. My first disliking of fundies happened at the age of 10. my first step at deconversion and I didn't even know!

 

I also felt like you did (and still do).

 

You might know these quotes already, but I've always liked them:

 

"You think dogs will not be in heaven?

I tell you, they will be there long before any of us."

Robert Louis Stevenson

 

and this one:

 

"If there are no dogs in Heaven,

then when I die I want to go

where they went."

Will Rogers, 1897-1935

 

It's not just dogs, but all the animals that have made my time on this world a better place. What kind of deity wouldn't extend "salvation" to animals?

[Vixentrox]

I always thought of Heaven as an everlasting church service (after all the crying and wailing over people who didn't make it and whose blood is on our heads). After all, all the Bible says about Heaven is that we will have mansions, but we will never cease to praise God. You know, after a few thousand years of singing and reciting scriptures, I might start to get a little bored...

Might explain that little rebellion when a third of the angels sided with Lucifer. Hehe.

[chaz]

It's not just dogs, but all the animals that have made my time on this world a better place. What kind of deity wouldn't extend "salvation" to animals?

It seems many of you have had negative experiences with Christians from your past declaring your pets will not go to heaven. I cannot excuse those Christians who were unkind when they told you this, but if you don't mind, I'd like to answer your question from a biblical perspective.

 

 

I agree that animals are wonderful and I couldn't imagine living eternally without them (especially dogs, there is something special about them). But to answer your question of why salvation couldn't extend to animals is twofold.

 

First, man was made in the image of God and because of his moral nature he was given a consequence for disobedience to the Lord (“…the day you eat of it you shall surely die”). Animals were never given a charge to obey their Maker; they live, they die—no moral choices involved.

 

Secondly, animals cannot choose right from wrong; the Lord never required a sacrifice for the sins of animals, nor did Jesus die for animals. Since animals do not have a sense of morality they did not need a sacrifice for their sins. Animals do not have a moral soul; hence they do not go into the afterlife.

 

 

This is from a biblical viewpoint.

 

 

One last thing. You may grieve over the fact that animals do not go to heaven when they die, but have you considered what God has there waiting for those who desire to have a pet? I think it is presumptuous for the Christian and the non-Christian to claim there will be no pets in heaven.

 

 

chaz

[Jubilant]

One last thing. You may grieve over the fact that animals do not go to heaven when they die, but have you considered what God has there waiting for those who desire to have a pet? I think it is presumptuous for the Christian and the non-Christian to claim there will be no pets in heaven.

 

Who'll have time for pets in the version of heaven according to NT anyway? It's abundantly clear that that heaven will be spent worshipping God's happy butt for all eternity.

 

You are aware that according to the OT this "going to heaven" after death is non-existent right, eternal torment either for that matter? OT God reigns on earth forever, not just 1000 years but forever. That is why they'll be plants and animals and people and homes and births, new moons and sabbaths, etc. And you are only required to go worship god on his thrown (if you live far away) once a year, the punishment being no rain for your crops. That is in one of the "Z" books from the OT. Last chapter I believe. The part about new moons and sabbaths are in one of the last books of Isaiah. Can't have new moons and sabbaths if the light from heaven is blocking it all out now, can you?

[Ziggy]

Eternal anything is unimaginable. All the good things I like here on earth would be unbearable after a short period of time if that was all there was. Mostly good things are good because we compare them to bad things or because we have them only for a temporary period of time .. but in heaven it will be all the same all of the time Variety is the spice of life...

 

Also to make heaven work we will have no memory or feelings for others (who may be in Hell) or for pets etc who are just plain dead We can't remember our parents being nice to us because we would have to remember our sisters being nasty to us We have no need for speach hearing taste feeling because all these things we know on earth to provide good and bad experiences And there can be no bad in heaven

 

And as for streets paved with gold - thats hopeless How can a porsche grip a gold paved road!

 

If there is an afterlife its unimaginable so there is no point even thinking about it

 

Same with hell

[OnceConvinced]

Heaven always seemed too good to be true for me. A lot of my ideas about heaven I've come up with over the years, probably have no real basis in scripture, but what you are taught in the bible and at church is that it's some pretty amazing place. My belief is that all the pleasures we love on earth would be nothing compared to the pleasures of heaven. Things would be hundreds of times more incredible and even if we did manage to take part in all those great things, we'd be itching just to do them all again. It's like you travel overseas to a country and then a year or two later you're itching to go back and visit again.

 

I don't think you can use Revelations as a major source on what heaven is, because Revelations is mainly a symbolic book and shouldn't be taken literally. IMO

 

I also thought it was bizarre when people pointed out that heaven would be a place where you worship God for eternity. But then again Worship isn't just singing praises to God. Worship can be in almost anything we do for his glory, whether it be art, whether it be play. But even if we were worshiping God, I think in heaven it would be a little like getting high. So we'd spend all our time stoned on the Holy Spirit, which would actually be quite cool.

 

I've come up with all sorts of great ideas over the years of what heaven would be like. Somewhere I was taught that we would be like God. If that's the case then we'd have special powers to play with and maybe be able to be a God ourselves and create our own worlds like God did.

 

I also have considered the option of time travel. Being able to revisit Earth and maybe even relive certain events. I always figured that if God existed, then he was in another dimension. And if he was omnipresent, then maybe we would be able to be too. Maybe in God's dimension there is no time. And we can step out from his dimension to any point in history anywhere in the universe we want.

 

I know. Sounds too good to be true. I guess in a way, that's why I've started to doubt whether there really is such a place.

[Wade]

It's not just dogs, but all the animals that have made my time on this world a better place. What kind of deity wouldn't extend "salvation" to animals?

It seems many of you have had negative experiences with Christians from your past declaring your pets will not go to heaven. I cannot excuse those Christians who were unkind when they told you this, but if you don't mind, I'd like to answer your question from a biblical perspective.

 

 

I agree that animals are wonderful and I couldn't imagine living eternally without them (especially dogs, there is something special about them). But to answer your question of why salvation couldn't extend to animals is twofold.

 

First, man was made in the image of God and because of his moral nature he was given a consequence for disobedience to the Lord (“…the day you eat of it you shall surely die”). Animals were never given a charge to obey their Maker; they live, they die—no moral choices involved.

 

Secondly, animals cannot choose right from wrong; the Lord never required a sacrifice for the sins of animals, nor did Jesus die for animals. Since animals do not have a sense of morality they did not need a sacrifice for their sins. Animals do not have a moral soul; hence they do not go into the afterlife.

 

 

This is from a biblical viewpoint.

 

 

chaz

 

Well...you still didn't answer the question? "What kind of deity wouldn't extend "salvation" to animals?"...I would say a very flawed deity

 

I believe that the biblical mindset has been responsible for a lot of cruelity to animals here on earth...it can be justified...with "well...they are less than us...they don't have a soul...not to mention god gave us dominion over them"

 

 

One last thing. You may grieve over the fact that animals do not go to heaven when they die, but have you considered what God has there waiting for those who desire to have a pet? I think it is presumptuous for the Christian and the non-Christian to claim there will be no pets in heaven.

 

The point is OUR pets wouldn't be there. I have had many dogs in my lifetime and all of them were unique with their own personalities. They were individuals that can not be replaced with other "pets".

 

 

Christians are some of the most cold and calloused people I have ever met.

[WakingUp]

I have longed for Heaven since I was a little girl, so with my "almost" deconversion giving up Heaven is really difficult for me. I believed that Jesus had gone to prepare a place for me, a mansion. Mine would be a beautiful country place on a hill. There would be no more tears. I would see all my loved ones. What's not to like about Heaven? I figured we would be busy working, in some way, and always learning and never ever bored. Losing "Heaven" has been extremely sad to me. HOwever, losing "Hell" has made it worth it.

 

WakingUp

[Thackerie]

The xian idea of heaven always seemed like an incredible bore to me. Spending all eternity praising god? WTF is wrong with god that it needs to have its ego stroked continuously? Yuck! Not a place I'd want to be – especially not if all my friends, family, and pets couldn't be there to give me some company as an alternative to spending eternity in the presence of a god with a flaming cosmic ego and its brain-fucked followers.

 

On the other hand, if there really were a heaven, I think it would be whatever an individual wants it to be; i.e.; my experience of heaven would not necessarily be your experience.

 

My heaven would include everyone I ever loved in life, regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof – and even regardless of their species. It would also include all the activities I enjoyed in life, only magnified.

 

For me, heaven would be all about two things - acquiring knowledge and enjoying pleasure (NOT singing in the celestrial choir and kissing god's big, fat, stinky ass for all eternity). And, oh yeah, sex and drugs and rock and roll (and other good music, too) would be perfectly permissible - encouraged, even, because the good feelings they produce on earth would be infinitely better in heaven.

 

If I can't have that, I might as well just slip into oblivion upon my demise - which is what I suppose will actually happen. And that ain't a bad thing since I'll feel neither joy nor pain but simply cease to be, just as I didn't exist before this life on earth.

[Piprus]

Funny thing, I had some thoughts about the so-called "heaven" promised by christianity.

So what it's like? What do find to do with all that time on your hands, in a place where in essence there are no challenges, no problems, no obstacles to overcome?

 

Do you eat? If so, do you excrete wastes?

Are there sports? NFL on Sundays? Swimming pools?

Sexual gratification?

Political discussions?

Music and dancing? (Aside from the obligatory god-praising sessions)

 

Where is it? It obviously isn't in the sky, or below ground, or under the sea. Is it on another planet somewhere? Or do you just wander around this world, like a ghost?

 

The big hook of christianity has always been its promise of eternal life in paradise for the redeemed. But it seems like a hollow promise.

 

I see it this way: when Paul was launching his version of christianity, he was appealing to the lower classes of the empire, which was about 90 percent of the population. The slaves, the lower class citizens, the population of conquered territories. Life was hard and tenuous, and one had to work constantly, doing drudgery day in and day out, just to survive. The promise of a life free of daily toil was one thing that made christianity sell like hot dogs at a ballgame. And it stuck, even as the christian bishops' power and influence grew. Even though at no time were there any details revealed what heaven would be like. Just a better life in a nebulous hereafter.

 

I remain unconvinced. The whole scenario has "scam" written all over it.