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Goodbye Jesus

Is faith and religion a selfish act?


Ouroboros

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I want to hear what you have to say about this subject:

 

Is faith or religion based on a selfish act, i.e. I believe because it helps me,

or is it because of unselfishness, i.e. I do it to help others?

 

Before I state my case, I'd like to hear what some of you think.

 

:scratch:

 

I'll post next part tomorrow.

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That's kind of a tricky question, as it rather depends on the person. I think the majority may do it because of selfishness, though they believe they're unselfish in being so Godly and giving a few pennies to charity. The people I work for are good examples of that; they'll give money to special olympics and the like, then roundly condemn the homeless for being lazy, teachers for being overpaid, and people for ripping them off when they've stupidly lent them money or resources - people you can obviously tell aren't going to pay them back. They consider themselves Good Christians, yet have no problem with the war, bombing civilians to stop the insurgents, excluding unmarried couples from the church, and telling Christians who don't go to church weekly that they'll go to Hell anyway.

But then some might really be unselfish in their faith, giving up their time to work in soup kitchens, or being nuns in famine-ridden countries to help the sick or the hungry.

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I don't think it was either selfish or unselfish in my case. At the age of 15 I just heard the gospel preached compellingly and suddenly got the overwhelming feeling that it was true. If it was, then how could I ignore it?

 

Fortunately, my brain now works properly. :blink:

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Ok, here's my case.

 

I. Become a Christian (or other religion)

 

The decision to become a Christian, and most any other religion, is in my opinion based on a selfish need to be rewarded in some way.

 

The reward would be to go to heaven after death, to be reincarnated into a higher being or to reach a higher level of consciousness.

 

You rarely would find anyone that became a Christian from the motive of helping others. The decision was not altruistic, but based on my own need to convert.

 

It seems the reason to become a believer is the fear of “me” not being left out or left behind, or being without a reward that others would get. “Me, Myself and I”

 

Based on this, I dare say that the decision to join a religion is selfish and emotional decision only.

 

II. Leave Christianity (or another religion)

 

What is really interesting is the reason why you would leave said religion.

 

In my own case it was from reason and rationalization.

 

One day I couldn’t believe anymore because of the lack of logic in the religion.

 

Emotions were fighting, trying to hold me back.

 

But Reason quenched the Emotions, and the only selfish act in this; was that I could not live a lie anymore.

 

Is it wrong to say that Truth forced me to denounce Faith? I don’t think so.

I think it was the need for Truth that made me leave.

 

 

Summary

 

Religion is noting more than selfishness, emotions and lies, because you want to get a reward or avoid the punishment, based on scare tactics.

 

 

Leaving it, was based on reason, and I wanted the Truth, which was still selfish, but only because I felt a moral duty to not support a Lie anymore.

 

Reason forced me to do it.

Better than to say “God made me do it”, don't you think?

 

 

 

 

 

:yellow:

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That's pretty much it I'd say. I left religion when reason was finally able to overcome emotion.

 

But even a knowledgable Christian will be able to quote Paul "Faith is belief in that which is hoped for."

 

In other words, it's wishfull thinking, which is a self serving emotional act.

 

Deap down, the few Christians who actually try to practice what they preach I suspect help others because they want to please god, as opposed to simply genuinely caring for the plight of their fellow men more than nonbelievers do.

 

Why do they care about pleasing god? Is it because they love him so much, or is it simply because they feel obligated to do so because they're "supposed to"? When I was a Christian, I found myself occasionally helping someone out of a sense of duty rather than out of a sense of humanity.

 

Today, I help others who are in need because I care about other humans, and not out of any sense of "supposed to".

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It seems that we stay in religion because of our own ego also.

And when we pray, or convert people, we do it gain brownie points with God.

 

I think that the only god we have, or at least the highest ranking god in everyones life, christian and not-christian, is our Ego.

 

We do everything based on some reward to ourself.

 

Think about why we want to life together with someone we love. It's because we get the good feeling of being loved and having that person around us.

 

We help other people, because it gives us a good feeling too.

 

So, the greatest god of all, is me.

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That's pretty much it I'd say.  I left religion when reason was finally able to overcome emotion.

 

But even a knowledgable Christian will be able to quote Paul "Faith is belief in that which is hoped for."

 

In other words, it's wishfull thinking, which is a self serving emotional act.

 

Deap down, the few Christians who actually try to practice what they preach I suspect help others because they want to please god, as opposed to simply genuinely caring for the plight of their fellow men more than nonbelievers do.

 

Why do they care about pleasing god?  Is it because they love him so much, or is it simply because they feel obligated to do so because they're "supposed to"?  When I was a Christian, I found myself occasionally helping someone out of a sense of duty rather than out of a sense of humanity.

 

Today, I help others who are in need because I care about other humans, and not out of any sense of "supposed to".

 

Wow. I had forgotten about that verse. Ironic, isn't it? Maybe Paul knew it was all just wishful thinking?

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If you'd like to read an interesting story

which I believe is pertinent to this topic,

look up Mark Twain's -- What Is Man?

and read it all the way through non-stop.

 

:scratch:

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For me, my belief in Wicca is a VERY selfish thing. I love the feel of it as it were. The benifits of getting closer to nature are very real to me and it's something I want more of.

 

Now granted I did a fair ammount of reading before I decided on this, I wanted something that agreed with science and reason to the 9's... but other than that I basically followed my heart.

 

Merlin

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Guest Euthyphro

Often, I have faith. But sometimes I am an atheist all across the board. Then Agnostic, Then Deist, Then Theist. Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm playing with a full deck.

 

 

I want a cosmic parent really bad. Sometimes, but not often, I even hope God will just magicaly fix things. I want to view the universe in a romantic way. I want to believe that God is there when I am weak, that God will give me the juice to keep trying to be a better person even though I know damn well that I will sometimes fail people. Hurt people. (Its no secret that I am pretty abrasive and overconfident. I have a big mouth.)

 

Yea. I have hope for things not seen sometimes.

 

 

 

When I believe, I believe for shelfish reasons and atruistic reasons. Both. Just like most everyone else.

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Summary

 

Religion is noting more than selfishness, emotions and lies, because you want to get a reward or avoid the punishment, based on scare tactics.

Leaving it, was based on reason, and I wanted the Truth, which was still selfish, but only because I felt a moral duty to not support a Lie anymore.

 

Reason forced me to do it.

Better than to say “God made me do it”, don't you think?

:yellow:

 

Basically I agree with you, but my line of reasoning is a little different. Here it goes:

 

As I see it, everything we do, is in some way or other based in our own needs and desires. So the difference between the selfish and the unselfish person is a matter of maturity. The childish person follows own needs and desires in an immediate way without thinking about long term consequences and consequences for other people.

 

The mature uses rational thinking to see his/her decisions in a broader perspective and understand that it is in his/her own best interest, to consider long term consequnces and consequences for other.

 

Becoming a Christian is a childish decision, leaving Christanity is a sign of maturity.

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Basically I agree with you, but my line of reasoning is a little different. Here it goes:

 

As I see it, everything we do, is in some way or other based in our own needs and desires. So the difference between the selfish and the unselfish person is a matter of maturity. The childish person follows own needs and desires in an immediate way without thinking about long term consequences and consequences for other people.

 

The mature uses rational thinking to see his/her decisions in a broader perspective and understand that it is in his/her own best interest, to consider long term consequnces and consequences for other.

 

Becoming a Christian is a childish decision, leaving Christanity is a sign of maturity.

 

Well said. I've been thinking in the same line.

 

When I left Christianity, I felt that I actually matured, grew up, and started taking actions and responsibility for my life.

 

I think religion (not all of them) gives people an excuse to why things happen.

So if things worked out well, then it was God, if it didn't then it was the Devil.

 

Sometimes I can feel the frustration that I did everything right, but things didn't come out the way I wanted. A mature response is "Ok, check what I did wrong, correct it, move on, and try again" - which is the formula for successful people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc. But the immature response will be “The Devil took it away, he destroyed it, I will pray to make it happen” or “God didn’t let me have it because (whatever reason).”

 

So in short terms, success comes from maturity, maturity comes from taking responsibility and not blaming external actors.

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II. Leave Christianity (or another religion)

 

What is really interesting is the reason why you would leave said religion.

 

In my own case it was from reason and rationalization.

 

One day I couldn’t believe anymore because of the lack of logic in the religion.

 

Emotions were fighting, trying to hold me back.

 

But Reason quenched the Emotions, and the only selfish act in this; was that I could not live a lie anymore.

 

Is it wrong to say that Truth forced me to denounce Faith? I don’t think so.

I think it was the need for Truth that made me leave.

Summary

 

Religion is noting more than selfishness, emotions and lies, because you want to get a reward or avoid the punishment, based on scare tactics.

Leaving it, was based on reason, and I wanted the Truth, which was still selfish, but only because I felt a moral duty to not support a Lie anymore.

 

Reason forced me to do it.

Better than to say “God made me do it”, don't you think?

:yellow:

 

 

Right on there HanSolo. Funny that. Whenever I'm asked about why I left Christianity, emotional justifications are always implied by the Christians asking. "Who in the church hurt you?" and "You can't blame God for how so-and-so treated you." and my favorite, upon discovery of my religious abandonment, which was simply stated as fact without any emotion whatsoever: "Why are you so angry?"

 

Huh? I used to be stunned that these Christians always tossed the emotional angle at me when I'd share my views.

 

And naturally I'd find myself becoming angry at them for ignoring my reason and logic in favor of: "Oh women can be such emotional creatures...." type of reaction.

 

Now it makes perfect sense. Emotion is the only level they themselves are capable of working on. It's that old "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail." deal.

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Now it makes perfect sense. Emotion is the only level they themselves are capable of working on. It's that old "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail." deal.

 

Yeah, it does, doesn't it!

 

But the hammer thing, works like a charm!

 

:fun:

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Sometimes I can feel the frustration that I did everything right, but things didn't come out the way I wanted. A mature response is "Ok, check what I did wrong, correct it, move on, and try again" - which is the formula for successful people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc. But the immature response will be “The Devil took it away, he destroyed it, I will pray to make it happen” or “God didn’t let me have it because (whatever reason).”

 

 

I agree 100%

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I think the vast majority of all our actions are selfishly motivated. It's something we all have in common, whatever our religion or lack of it.

 

Not that people don't 'do' kind or good things for others - but the motivation behind this is generally to please ourselves in some way. When people 'do' things for others without any hope of adding to their own happiness in some way as a result - I think that leads to bitterness.

 

For example - on one level you could say I've made sacrifices for my kids ... but if truth be told any amazing apparently selfless actions I've done for my kids - I've really done for myself - because doing stuff for them brings me shedloads of happiness.

 

I know some mothers who have made 'selfless sacrifices' for their kids - they say things like 'after everything I've done for you' as their faces wrinkle up into bitterness - that kind of unselfish behaviour sucks.

 

I can't see 'maturity and growing up' - as linked to leaving religion behind or not. (Although I accept that for some of you the timing has converged) Some people mature in their state of belief - some people stay stuck in irresponsibility in their disbelief.

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I think the vast majority of all our actions are selfishly motivated. It's something we all have in common, whatever our religion or lack of it.

 

Not that people don't 'do' kind or good things for others - but the motivation behind this is generally to please ourselves in some way.  When people 'do' things for others without any hope of adding to their own happiness in some way as a result - I think that leads to bitterness.

 

For example - on one level you could say I've made sacrifices for my kids ... but if truth be told any amazing apparently selfless actions I've done for my kids - I've really done for myself - because doing stuff for them brings me shedloads of happiness.

 

I know some mothers who have made 'selfless sacrifices' for their kids - they say things like 'after everything I've done for you' as their faces wrinkle up into bitterness - that kind of unselfish behaviour sucks.

 

I can't see 'maturity and growing up' - as linked to leaving religion behind or not. (Although I accept that for some of you the timing has converged) Some people mature in their state of belief - some people stay stuck in irresponsibility in their disbelief.

 

You are head on.

 

So the greatest god of all is ourselfs. We don't do things for God or for our neighbor. We all follow the law of selfishness, even when we "sin" or not.

 

Selfishness is not permitted by God, and supposedly you get rid of it when you're born again. Which is not true. So we live in sin, every minute, every second of our life. We can't do without that "basic sin".

 

If our morals start from that ground level, that means we have no morals, ever.

Even moral is based on selfish ideas, but only presented as not.

 

Conclusion,

No one has a god. You are god! Always and whatever you say.

Moral does not exist. It's an ideal description of a faint dream of altruism.

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I know some mothers who have made 'selfless sacrifices' for their kids - they say things like 'after everything I've done for you' as their faces wrinkle up into bitterness - that kind of unselfish behaviour sucks.

 

 

It seems, that they had expected to get something in return for their "selfless" acts.

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Conclusion,

No one has a god. You are god! Always and whatever you say.

Moral does not exist. It's an ideal description of a faint dream of altruism.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'an ideal description of a faint dream of altruism'.

 

I guess I see two kinds of way in which people generally do things for the benefit of others (altruism) the first is when the action (whatever it is) brings us some personal joy, the other is when we expect a joyful reward for the act to be provided by another person (the one we help or the one/s we serve)

 

I don't know that I could say I am God - I'd like to think (I think) I have the capacity to 'be god' ... in some situations! Just musings ...

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'an ideal description of a faint dream of altruism'.

 

I guess I see two kinds of way in which people generally do things for the benefit of others (altruism) the first is when the action (whatever it is) brings us some personal joy, the other is when we expect a joyful reward for the act to be provided by another person (the one we help or the one/s we serve)

 

I don't know that I could say I am God - I'd like to think (I think) I have the capacity to 'be god' ... in some situations! Just musings ...

 

I'm claiming with m statement that True Altruism doesn't exist.

Altruism is when you do something that is "unselfish concern for the welfare of others".

My claim is that we always get something out of what we do.

If I do something good for my kids, my wife, my neighbor or someone on the street, it still will be a feeling of "done something good". That good feeling can be addictive, so some people do it just for the feeling of good.

 

I kind of made this statement just to see the reaction, so let's see where it leads us.

 

I probably made a bit of a quantum leap in thought when I defined morals as "an ideal description of a faint dream of altruism".

 

If I use the definition of Moral as "Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation"

 

Then the question is what is right and wrong?

 

It's very hard to define, and usually it's easier to do it by example:

- You should not murder

- You should not steal

- You should behave good and nice and all that.

Basically a list of sins that we're not supposed to do.

 

Most of it (maybe not all) is based on "not hurting other people", or "love thy neighbor as yourself". But based on the previous claim I did that true altruism (love thy neighbor) really doesn’t exist, but is a mere illusion of that we're doing something for ourselves.

 

For instance, you won't murder someone because you know ultimately you will get punished, which in your opinion doesn't make it worth it.

 

So my leap that I did was that Moral is just an idealistic faint dream, or in other words, moral can't be completely defined, because it's based on what I gain from it. And we have different needs.

 

Moral is like the 10 commandments. We're commanded to do certain things that we sometimes won’t be able to obey.

 

Take murder again, to protect your life or your family you could kill someone that attack you.

 

Or stealing, if you and your family go hungry, you could steal to get food.

 

So, on the opposite note, a mom and kids go without food and the mom give the kids the last food and she keeps starving. Is that selfish or not? If it was selfish, what did she gain from it?

 

I know I'm probably stretching it, but I'm just pondering and exploring territory I haven't done before.

 

So shoot the argument down... I'm only try to defend it as much as I can, if I fail, well then maybe I'm wrong. And if my sentences doesn’t make sense, it’s most likely because I write as it comes to my mind…

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I'm claiming with m statement that True Altruism doesn't exist.

Altruism is when you do something that is "unselfish concern for the welfare of others".

My claim is that we always get something out of what we do.

 

So ... a mom and kids go without food and the mom give the kids the last food and she keeps starving. Is that selfish or not? If it was selfish, what did she gain from it?

 

I know I'm probably stretching it, but I'm just pondering and exploring territory I haven't done before.

 

So shoot the argument down... I'm only try to defend it as much as I can, if I fail, well then maybe I'm wrong. And if my sentences doesn’t make sense, it’s most likely because I write as it comes to my mind…

 

Can't shoot you down because I think I agree with - if I understand correctly what I think you are saying.

 

The Mother gives her children the food so she can experience the joy that comes from doing everything she can do ensure that she children survive and avoid the pain that comes from not doing everything she can for those she loves. Love is its own reward.

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Can't shoot you down because I think I agree with - if I understand correctly what I think you are saying.

 

The Mother gives her children the food so she can experience the joy that comes from doing everything she can do ensure that she children survive and avoid the pain that comes from not doing everything she can for those she loves. Love is its own reward.

 

Exaclty! Give the man a cigar!

 

But it still bothers me to no end, that our god and only god, the thing that controls us, always, whatever we believe, is truly only ourself. That bothers me a bit, and I can't shake it.

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Exaclty! Give the man a cigar!

 

But it still bothers me to no end, that our god and only god, the thing that controls us, always, whatever we believe, is truly only ourself. That bothers me a bit, and I can't shake it.

 

I'm interested that you use the term 'control' - what's that about? Are we saying that we have no choices with this ego god? Are we saying that there aren't trancendent qualities we can aspire to - like love or goodness or ...

 

oh and the lady doesn't smoke cigars ...

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I'm interested that you use the term 'control' - what's that about? Are we saying that we have no choices with this ego god? Are we saying that there aren't trancendent qualities we can aspire to - like love or goodness or ...

 

oh and the lady doesn't smoke cigars ...

 

Well, I mean control in a loose manner, probably not a perfect word. But it does drive us to the choices we make. And yes, I think we should aspire for trancendent qualities, and love and goodness for its own sake, if that's possible.

 

But I'm just not sure that we actually can do it, just because when we do, we do it for our own benefit some way or another.

 

Thinking about it, there are times when you do things against your own selfishness.

 

Taling about the cigar for instance.

 

If I smoke around people that don't like it, and they tell me to put it out, will I put it out and be angry (not selfish) or will I keep on smoking (selfish).

 

It depends on what kind of fight you want, I'm sure people would give you heck of a time if you don't put it out. So you weight the bad against the bad, and probably choose the less bad, but sometimes you might pick the bigger bad just because you feel like fighting...

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Well, I mean control in a loose manner, probably not a perfect word. But it does drive us to the choices we make. And yes, I think we should aspire for trancendent qualities, and love and goodness for its own sake, if that's possible.

 

But I'm just not sure that we actually can do it, just because when we do, we do it for our own benefit some way or another.

 

Thinking about it, there are times when you do things against your own selfishness.

 

Taling about the cigar for instance.

 

If I smoke around people that don't like it, and they tell me to put it out, will I put it out and be angry (not selfish) or will I keep on smoking (selfish).

 

It depends on what kind of fight you want, I'm sure people would give you heck of a time if you don't put it out. So you weight the bad against the bad, and probably choose the less bad, but sometimes you might pick the bigger bad just because you feel like fighting...

 

hmmm still not sure we are doing it against our own selfishness ...

 

If you put the cigar out and feel angry - isn't that more foolish than selfish?

 

If you put the cigar out against your desire to keep smoking it for your own smoking pleasure - you are still putting it out to meet a desire - a desire not to get into a fight with the one telling you to put it out. If you put it out because the views of the other person matter to you - you still put it out for selfish reasons - because you will get something you desire from the decision.

 

If you don't put it out coz you feel like a fight - then that's what you've decided is the most desirable thing for you at the time.

 

Wisdom comes from understanding our desires and taking the actions we know we'll feel OK with - as in there is no point getting angry over the decision to stub out the cigar because although our desire for the cigar has been thwarted by another's wish for a smoke free environment, we should recognise that we have something we desire more than the smoke (the appreciation of the other/ the happiness of the other/ the absence of the fight) ....

 

Blimey - I bet you wish you'd never offered ... (the cigar) ...

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