Reality For Those That Don't Believe In God

[PiracyOfTheHead]

WTF???

 

I am not going to read through however many pages have been posted on this topic, so if I am restating th already declared, forgive me.

 

Jayzuss Christ!!!!!!!! Why were you sitting aorund pondering this shit??????

 

I have only been questioning the faith a couple years and de-converted less than 3 weeks ago but if I have to hear more lunatic Xtian arguments for another bloody thing I am going to puke on the dog.

 

Honestly, can you come up with something better than this bullshit, full of holes CRAP about taking Atheism to its logical end, Im not an atheist I dont think...... I dont what what the hell I am yet but for the love of money, you're no great thinker, I can tell from your first post. What makes you think you can take anything to its logical end??? Are you the king of syllogism? Are you David Hume?? WhoTF are you??

 

Ok...I have my ad hominem part of the reply out.....hey, YOU called US FOOLS first in your original reply and you dont know any of us...so you deserve it. Come to a forum of people and declare that most of them are FOOLS....you're not the Apostle Paul buddy, so I hope you dont pull that crap in public, with real life people who may twist you into a pretzel.

 

Anyways, on to my point.......Theres no way of lumping a dis-belief of a God into a category of humans who must serve no purpose in life, and therefore should do whatever they want and not care. Your version of anarchy is based on Atheism??? THats absurd.

 

Heres the 5th grader answer to your question, in a nutshell..."If you dont believe in God, why care about anything?"

 

Its simple...with or without an afterlife...Were right here, in a universe with cause and effect, why dont I cut off my neighbors legs so he can suffer miserably for the rest of his life and I rot in prison for 10-25??? Uhhh..because I dont want to be in prison and I dont want my neighbor to suffer. What does that have to do with how the Universe was created, and if there is an afterlife....

 

In fact, if one doesnt believe in an afterlife, it would seem to me they would want to LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST and if they had half a brain they would learn the way to treat people in society, relationships, how to follow the law and avoid punishment and incarceration, these people would be working hard at enjoying whats in their minds as a brief put precious gift that should be used to its best possible limits, life here on earth.

 

Your Nihilistic conclusion is only that, your conclusion, it follows no train of logic...if you think it does....PLEASE SHOW THAT LINE OF REASONING AND PROVE THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER BY USING DEDUCTION. You know what that is right?

 

Im sure youre a pretty decent person and youre obviously not a complete moron, you know how to use a computer, hook up to the net, join a forum, make posts, and you can string word together in a fairly sensibl manner, so use your abilities in a better way than this, this was a sorry attempt and Im interested at maybe loking at the rest of the postings to see how you developed your original statement. I am willing to bet you got your ass handed to you though, but hey at least you tried. I hope you learned something and I wish you the best as you begin to develop your thought process.

 

Tiocaidh ar lagh, Eirinn Gobragh

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Hey there Pmodern, I think the idea that we are a “walking pile of atoms” is an unfortunate view. Increasingly I am coming to see us as a nexus of relationships.

 

If there is no god, nothing matters, and there is no "right" and no "wrong," and none of our existence matters in the end. So stop trying to live otherwise.

Do you generally think it is proper or right to issue orders to other people? I wouldn’t mind speaking with you, but I wonder if you are of a current state of mind to actually communicate with us.

 

How do you justify us being a nexus of relationships, in terms of something that actually matters? I can have a pile of ants in my room that have a "nexus of relationships" with each other too...who cares??

You can issue whatever order you want, the point is, it doesn't matter. Please elaborate on why I am not in a "current state of mind" to communicate. I'm asking for responses to the philosophical logic I bring up, not merely attacks on my state of mind.

 

PModern, now I did get interested and have read further, you posted a bumnch of not so tightly strung ideas and opinions and when challenged demanded a refutation. You were being told that your argument didnt even make sense, you were told why, you were told that you were speaking of a brand of Nihilism and not Atheism, you were told that Human behavior concerning right and wrong predated even the Torah.

 

The latter is all that is needed to simply prove that humans decided there were reasons to treat eachother with a sense of purpose, and gave puropse to all of life without a God, that stops your theory dead in its tracks, nobody needs to keep going after that. And most dont want to simply because you seem like some newbie throwing out a tired old argument...as Florduh said, go research te topic, this is not some great epiphany brought to the feet of all atheists who now have to collectibvely join forces to contend with your superior intellect......youve been given your reasons.

 

Now if you want to ask specific questions and have them answered I would be MORE than willing to slug it out, but Im not going to write an essay to you about all your vague assumptions, statements and conclusions. Be specific, go point to point.

 

Jayzuss, I love when Chrisians ask you to "refute" them...I "refuted" that atheist...

 

You try and refute me, I will PWN you sorry can...bring it!!!!!!!!!

[PiracyOfTheHead]

What did you expect us to say?

 

"OMG, I never thought of that! He's absolutely right!"

 

Wow, I thought that this forum was going to bring objective responses to a legitimate worldview, like examples of descriptions of other atheistic worldviews that counter the nihilistic one I brought up.

 

This is quite disappointing. Maybe the moderator can bring in some better content.

 

 

The more i read on, the more its just deprssing.

 

You didnt ask simple questions, you went on about quesitons you had, answered them for us, explained the way things REALLY ARE for us, then asked and/or demanded us to change our beliefs because you were right and we were wrong.

 

And you're forgetting that youre tlaking to people who THOUGHT AND SAID AND ARGUED THE SAME TIRED SHIT YO'RE ESPOUSING, were not savages in the jungle who are hearing of this for the first time...youre preachign to the Ex-Choir....come on!!!!!!!!!

[PiracyOfTheHead]

You've gone from two posts to six in a fairly short span of time.

 

Tell ya what... if you actually hang around here and participate, I'd be impressed. Otherwise, you're doing nothing out of the ordinary for your kind. Get up to 100 posts and I'll listen to you.

 

Why does everybody refuse to offer a legitimate counter argument to the nihilistic worldview, and instead focus on frivolous issues?

 

Itw as the way you began, youre at fault here, you didnt present your position properly, yo attacked people, called us fools, answered your own questions...etc etc, you didnt begin with a proper format, so you in turn received some chaos.

In the counter argument, assume that I am a fellow atheist who think all other atheists who don't hold the nihilistic worldview are incorrect. Assume that I am an atheist who believes there is no "right" or "wrong" and that there is no meaning to life. Please respond with those assumptions.

 

Now you're asking a different question, you're very slippery, nothing new with those who hold your viewpoint, I once was like you.

You're an atheist who believes theres no right or wrong...respond to that??? UMMMM OK...I cant tell you you'r wrong, since you dont believe in it, so why speak with you????

 

But if you would listen, I would explain how even though there is no god and no afterlife, dont you want to live a "pleasurable" life here...I would then offer you ways todo that and many of those would include the necessity to adapt to societies views of right and wrong in order to function in it.

 

Was this supposed to be a stumper??? whats wrong with you??

 

Your posts are insanely twisted and counter-productive for yourself and your position, I dont think that anybody is really understanding what the hell you're talking about anymore

 

Attacking God's existence would do nothing to counter my views.

 

I didnt notice anyone attacking God....to follow your line of reasoning, if thats possible, how could an atheist attack an entity that doesnt exist?? so whats the point of worrying about it, since his Atheism rules out the necessity to treat this entity that doesnt exist in one way or another...right or wrong, good or bad. So since there is no entity in that persons POV, there is noright or wrong....good or bad concerning the satements...

 

OK YOU SEE HOW FRUSTRATING AND MORONIC THAT LASAT STATEMENT WAS??????????????? Thats what you sound like!!!!

 

I joked with an ad hominem on my first post, to prove a point in you calling people fools. I personally dont know you, you may be a great person, Im willing to accept you as a person. You just arent making much sense and your statements arent cohesive.

 

I am not attacking a god or your god. So like I offered before, I am willing to formally debate with you on this topic if you feel the need, then we can deal with it one on one, is that what you want???

 

And since this whole thinghas degenerated into chaos I think I will just read through and restrain myself from commenting, unless you take me up on my offer, but like Ive said before, Im sure the others have taken care of it, but if not to your satisfaction, let me know.

 

I find myself repeating the sme things to you....that shows youre kida hard to reach, you know??? Try listening and understanding what poeple say before immediately replying your answer, you cant learn if you already know the answer to questions before you're asked, try to open youself up to honestly learn and be taught.

[Emme]

Interesting thread.

 

So ok, maybe there is no absolute morality, or objective morality, but the subjective morality is there and is difficult to ignore. Do you suggest we try and get rid of it somehow?

[Deva]

Tabula Rasa said:

Pmodern, after reading all your posts, I have to wonder if you are talking more about Cosmicism, which makes Nihilism seem practically cheerful in comparison.

(From Wikipedia)

 

Cosmicism is the literary philosophy developed and used by the American writer H. P. Lovecraft in his weird fiction

 

Thank you TR for that summary of Cosmicism, Lovecraft's philosophy. It is succinct and accurate so far as his literary philosophy goes. I would just like to add that by reading Lovecraft's correspondence you see that he did make his own life meaningful through his writing, his friends and his travels. He does not strike one as depressed, despite his impoverished circumstances. Many of his personal letters are light, humorous and charming. He had an ethics which he based upon aesthetics which is interesting to read about, even though S.T. Joshi didn't think it held up philosophically. Thus, the OP is not accurately reflecting Lovecraft's real position. Yes, humans are cosmically insignificant, but they still make their own meaning in life.

[bubbleloulicious]

If we are nothing more than a bunch of atoms walking around now, and nothing more than a bunch of atoms when we die, why care what happens in life.

 

Just that statement alone makes no sense to me at all. I know little about all these "ism's" but, as a parent, I do know that my concern is for my child and I care what happens. It seems to me that that is a simple enough reason to "care what happens in life", along with concerns for the well-being of others. Such things are not God-based, but are human-based.

 

Much of what you present is just, well, absurd to me.

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Why does everybody refuse to offer a legitimate counter argument to the nihilistic worldview, and instead focus on frivolous issues? In the counter argument, assume that I am a fellow atheist who think all other atheists who don't hold the nihilistic worldview are incorrect. Assume that I am an atheist who believes there is no "right" or "wrong" and that there is no meaning to life. Please respond with those assumptions. Attacking God's existence would do nothing to counter my views.

Maybe it's because we're not completely nihilistic here... And some of the members aren't even atheists... so how does those non-atheists answer and defend nihilism? Or how can they? Not more than you could, right? You make generalizations. It's doesn't work.

 

A lot of our decisions, actually or probably most, of our actions, are not based on what we think is "right" or "wrong". Do you order fast food from Domino's because it's right or because it's wrong? Do you stop at the red light because it's right or because it's wrong? If it's the right thing to do, where does it say that in the Bible, or when did God declare it? So obviously a lot of "right" and "wrong" has to do with social conditioning and obedience to the law. And you can break the law if you want to, but they'll bust your ass for it to protect the rest of the society. So crimes are wrong, because they hurt other members of society. How about that as a definition of "wrong"? But of course, we could establish an anarchy... but it would only last for 3 weeks, and it would collapse. I'm practical. I'm a pragmatic person. I believe in things that works, not in things people believe in out of convenience and parental reinforcements. Get out of your box and learn something about life. You might enjoy it.

 

Your social conditioning that you mention only applies factors that allow humans to live together, and nothing to do with morality. Who defines that hurting other members of society is right or wrong.

 

How about venturing into West Africa and finding out what "right" and "wrong" is. You got plenty of people who believe it is "right" to kill of a country's people for the sake of their own fortune. How bout venturing into the Mexican border cities and meeting the narcos who think it is right to behead police officers in front of their families. These people are breaking laws all the time, but there is no anarchy there.

 

Just because there is no right and wrong, does not mean there has to be anarchy. Once again, legal and illegal are the only relevant terms for society. Right and wrong are completely irrelevant, if you are a true atheist.

 

 

For the love of money...PM, please stop doing this...... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wQEl2Vzcwmw

 

 

And do this......... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaHcZUHI00

[buffettphan]

And do this......... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaHcZUHI00

 

Piracy, that was great! I'm bookmarking that youtube vid for future use. Thanks for making me laugh this morning after reading thru all the absurd garbage that PM200 posted since I went to bed last night!

 

Methinks PM200 just loves to hear himself talk. He obviously doesn't listen. In his own words, he just wants to 'bug" us. I'm moving on......

[PiracyOfTheHead]

What is morality held together by then. Just cause people have it doesn't mean there is a justification to have it. As an atheist, what is the case for morality...your personal views? What gives one person authority over the definition of morality over another?

 

I'm not really in the mood to educate you. I'd suggest a good start would be Philosophy 101.

 

The really uber short answer though is that morality is held together by necessity.

 

What gives one person authority over the definition of morality over another?

 

I'd suggest starting with Rousseau. If you have questions after you study his views on social contracts and the general will I'm sure I and others will be happy to give you a hand. You need to get your hands dirty first and prove you are really interested in learning before many of us will be willing to bother though. So many just want to preach to us under the guise of being a questioner that we grow weary.

 

The social contracts about the "common good" are merely a system of defining what is legal and illegal for a group of people to live together. Morality is driven by the fact that your composition of atoms would like to last 90 years instead of 10 years. Is this "right" and "wrong?" No, it is merely a desire to abide by a system to maintain a social existence.

 

Where were the social contracts defending slaves in the times of slavery? Back then, slavery was "right." Then some other people thought it was "wrong." If "right" and "wrong" change all the time, how can there be a true definition of "right" and "wrong." That is why I make the case that it doesn't exist in the first place.

 

We can pluck you out and throw you into a Taliban society right now and you'd have to abide by their "rights" and "wrongs" or you'll die. Since morality is all relative, I make the case that it is absolutely non-existent.

 

As much as I try to just read on and not say anything...I am forced by ADD, OCD and a number of other things to reply

 

 

You ask us to defend a position, then you get answers then you pick apart what the meaning of the words are.......maybe you should just go figure out what the fuck you mean by different concepts that you speak of, then get back to the conversation...I see people giving you great answers then you say...well whats your definition of "such and such" and your definition of "such and such" may not be my definition of "such and such". And "Right" is only "right" complared to this view but you say that you have no god so your "right" isnt my "right" so how do you show whats "right"...you my friend are the definition of a mindfuck.......

 

You're the most subjective relativist I have seen in a long time, you cant accept an answer, you have to go in with "what ifs", and posit alternative points of view instead of taking it at face value, youre not looking for an answer here...its patently obvious. Were not as big of fools here as you think, we know your game, we know your schtick, we've even said the same drivel ourselves, you're beating a twice dead horse with an argument where everytime you get a legitimate answer you pull the rug out from under your opponent by resorting to relativism and TBH, we all know you just want to prove you're right, you dont give a shit about learning, understanding anyone that doesnt buy your load, you dont want to grow and mature in your thinking, you're saying this with every post you make, and we all know it.

 

You blew into the forum with a dust devil of questions, answers, opinions and conclusion...and you've reaped the whirlwind. Maybe sit and think a while, do a little research, write down some sort of outline, re-post, begin with a premise and pose distinct and specific questions and deal with each question without endless rabbit trails, straw man "what if" stories and you may get what you want. Then wehn people reply, read what they jave said 3 times over....take a stop watch ponder what theyve said forat least 3 damned minutes, ask for understanding and really delve into what they might be trying to say, then post your reply, it takes time and some effort and self control but thats what mature people who truly want to debate and learn do.

 

When I was a Xtian I would hunt out all sorts of ammunition to prove I was right, get into debates on street corners or with m family, friends or school students and I would fire away, and while they responded I would be pretending to listen while I was rehearsing what I was going o say becaus i KNEW I was right they were wrong and all I had to do was confound the,m, reach their hearts and minds and convince them of my truth.

 

that was so wrong of me to do that and I can spot when others are doing it too....do you find yourself only waiting for a person to finish in a conversation so you can say what you already had planned??? Or do you empty your mind, listen, take some moments to thhink and then make your decisions on what to say???

 

Do you go in KNOWING you are going to walk away believing one thing and one thing only then when you are challenged use everything you can to reach that AIM?

 

Do you believe you have reached a leel of truth where you can only hone your skills but that you couldnever be fundamentally flawed??

 

If Yes to these thigns then you are not a truth seeker, you are not a good listener, you truly dont know how to communicate and allow humans the freedom of though...you are what I call a Pirate of the Mind. One of the worst forms of criminals.

 

But you dont come off as "evil" or malicious so i think you're just a trained robot and it's truly sad to see another life completely taken over by Xtianity, brainwashed, baptized and programmed to carry out the will of men who claim to speak for god. I thank my lucky stars I have emerged from this type of living, its becoming more and more liberating every day to learn my fellow human's points of view, their cultural, religious, spiritual, political, intellectual diversity, this is a terrible and wonderful workd and there is so much to enjoy when you begin to see it all and can embrace so much more, all you seem to see is through a pin sized looking glass and that is slavery, you ave become a slave to thousands of years of religious agenda. Im sorry for that. Hopefully one day you will break through and catch a glimpse out of the corner of your eye, that there is so much more.

 

 

If you get the chance, google Plato's Cave ....it's a great read, if you dont already know it, if you do, maybe read it again, give it some thought, but by all means, start giving things that arent your own POV and dont fit into your box a chance....give them some time when you think, set yourself free

 

 

"Emancipate Yourselves From Mental Slavery, None But Ourselves Can Free our Minds"____________B. Marley

[PiracyOfTheHead]

And do this......... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaHcZUHI00

 

Piracy, that was great! I'm bookmarking that youtube vid for future use. Thanks for making me laugh this morning after reading thru all the absurd garbage that PM200 posted since I went to bed last night!

 

Methinks PM200 just loves to hear himself talk. He obviously doesn't listen. In his own words, he just wants to 'bug" us. I'm moving on......

 

 

Glad to be of service Buffetphan......I sooo didnt want to get sucked into this debate, i had things I wanted to post, but my OCD took over LOL!!

 

Yeah, you're right, and as I and others have said, PM doesnt listen to anybodys answers...contradicts him/herself regularly, its of no use...Im moving on as well, unless he takes my Challenge to move to a One on One debate in the Arena or Coliseum...I think those are the two 1 vs 1 forums.....then I will move on, I wish I was articulate as Han Solo, but if I put the time and effort neded for posting formally one on one I know I could come close and I would like to do that, I have so much fre time these days.

 

Hope you have more laughs throughought the day!!!

 

But in the end...what does that matter LOL!!!!!!!!

[Vigile]

Where were the social contracts defending slaves in the times of slavery?

 

Is it lost on you that morality is evolving and ever changing? This is true for xian morality as well as societal.

 

Where is the social contracts against invading foreign countries unprovoked? Xians today can't answer that one.

[Vigile]

Are you saying you're better than those people who do like murder and mayhem? I say without god, you can be free to even pursue murder and mayhem from a moral perspective, because there is no right and wrong. What give you the authority to be better than the murderous? Just because you say so? I'm sure there are plenty of murderous who would argue that their moral authority is greater than yours. Who is right then?

 

I say we're all the same. We're all walking atoms.

 

I say with god you are free to pursue murder and mayhem. Church history is full of this but let's examine something more contemporary. When the troops marched off to go kill hundereds of thousands of Iraqis and misplace millions of them from their homes, I stood in shock and dismay as xians lined the streets of anytown USA and cheered them on orgasmically. Without the xian mandate in this country it would have never been posible.

 

Let's talk a bit more about xian morality. I have a good friend who happens to be gay. His xian father disowned him and his xian sister refuses to let him visit his neices and nephews.

 

But these people have such deep meaning in their lives because they get to live forever :eyeroll:

[Neon Genesis]

Believing that life is meaningless does not equal not believing in anything. How does being atheist towards Allah differ from being atheist to the entire concept of god?

Because Christians are atheists too; I just believe in one less god than you do. Thus if not believing in gods makes you a nihilist, then you're also a nihilist because you don't believe in other gods.

 

Just because this debate is meaningless doesn't mean I can't partake in it.

There, you've just answered your question of what the meaning of life is if there is no god. Just because there is no god to give us a purpose to life doesn't mean that we can't make our own meaning to life. Life has meaning because you make it have meaning. To me, asking the question of what the meaning of life is redundant. It's like asking what the purpose of breathing is. The purpose of living is to live. Not living defeats the purpose of living, thus you live for living. Even if a god existed, you're still ultimately the one who decides your meaning since you have to choose how to respond to god. Isn't that what Christians always say? That god gave us free will to decide how to live our lives because god didn't want robots? So, if god gave us freewill, how can we have a god-given purpose at the same time? If god defines what our meaning is, then we have no freewill because god has already decided what our meaning is. So, either we have freewill and only we can decide what our meaning is, or if god gives us meaning to life, then we have no freewill.

 

And asking how we can know what right and wrong is without god is like asking how we can know that it hurts to touch a hot stove without god. Do you need a god to tell you that you shouldn't touch a hot stove because you'll get burned? No, you likely figured out that long ago when you were a kid before you even thought about morality. So, why do you need a god to tell you what's right and wrong? The reason we don't do bad things is because a society who does only bad things will hurt a lot more than a society that doesn't. The reason we care about not getting hurt is because this is the only life we may have. Jesus himself said loving your neighbor as yourself is more important than all the other religious beliefs and traditions. Thus, if we love our neighbor as ourselves, then the moral values that are most important to uphold will logically follow, no gods needed. Also, if morals are given to us by god, why do we need Christianity to tell us what those morals are? You also seem to keep trying to combine nihilism with moral relativism which are not the same things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

 

Unfortunately, I have only found senseless bickering against religion and the rapture, instead of legitimate cases.

Again, the reason why I keep bringing up religion is because you are holding god to a different standard than humans. If we need an outside source to give meaning to our lives, then god needs an outside source to give meaning to its life, too. Since god has no outside source to give its life meaning, then god's existence is meaningless and god is a nihilist, thus Christians should be nihilists too and the only ones who should be nihilist are Christians. When you understand why god doesn't need an outside source to have meaning, you'll understand why humans don't, either.

 

But for now, I feel like defending nihilism as a legitimate worldview.

See? You're not here to learn or to dialog with us. The only thing you're interested in is preaching why you know what we believe about atheism better than atheists do and are not interested in hearing our responses. This is the real reason why you're here

As for the OT, yes God can do whatever he wants, however whimsical he wants.

You're not interested in arguing for legitimate worldviews. You're only interested in defending religious violence because you apparently think you have the right to murder us because we don't believe in god. That is sick, bigoted, and disgusting, and you have no right to tell us what is moral when you're the only one who's acting immoral here. Why don't you go do what the bible says and take the shard out of your own eye before you take the shard out of ours and make sweeping judgments about our morality? On a more light-hearted note, this video is hilarious:

[centauri]

As for the OT, yes God can do whatever he wants, however whimsical he wants.

 

Then your version of morality is just as meaningless as that of the godless.

Not having established that this "God" exists, you're simply appealing to the authority of an entity that you've created out of your own mind, or the minds of others.

 

"Right" or "wrong" would be defined as whatever he defines is right or wrong...whether it is sensible to us or not.

 

 

So humans are to be programmed by input coming from what source exactly?

Is eating pork right or wrong?

 

From the human perspective, it's always going to be different from person to person, and relative, if you will. As a Christian, I don't believe humanity is deserving of anything.

 

So I assume you don't have any problem with abortion.

 

It is by "grace" that we have any "hope" at all.

 

That may be the teaching of your cult, but it doesn't line up with the word of God as depicted in the Bible.

 

God can send us all to hell if he wants, and that doesn't change the fact of whether he exists or not. The validity of religious documents? Perhaps. He either does or doesn't exist, whether we believe it or not. This works for both sides of the argument...no matter how much I believe, he's not going to exist if he doesn't. Likewise, no matter how much I don't believe, he's not going to not exist. From the nihilist perspective, what I believe doesn't matter in terms of whether God exists or not.

 

Nor should it matter from your perspective.

You've already claimed that this entity can do whatever he wants.

If you are predestined to your fate, which the Bible fully supports and teaches, then it doesn't matter what you do.

It'll all be taken care of automatically.

[Antlerman]

Once again, how about focusing on the issue at hand. I ask for logical responses to the nihilistic worldview I present, and you just come back with attacks on theism. My entire post was about God NOT existing...yet you guys want to bring back the issue of God existing. My entire post was on the assumption that he does not exist, so please stick to that assumption.

Wow this thread has certainly taken off! I'll try to catch up on the rest of the pages later, but for now I'd like to respond to this basic question.

 

Yes, atheism does present some difficulties, and this is where I as an atheist am critical of the neo-atheists as simply saying God doesn't exist doesn't address questions such as you raise - which questions I'll add are really only questions to someone raised in the Christian West with that mindset. There are many philosophies that come up dealing with this question of seeing the world and one's own life in light of there not being a God. It's a question of meaning and purpose, which frankly is for all intents and purposes a total indulgence and a luxury! It's only those who have the benefit of affluence, who are not foraging for food as the rest of the animal kingdom has to do for lack of sophisticated technologies such as we possess (essentially God owes his very existence to technology, since without it we wouldn't be asking such an indulgent question).

 

So then how do we with the luxury of time to reflect indulgently upon our lives see them without a God? Fatalistically? Well, that certainly is one way to look at it. One could conclude to the end of reason that as all things end, so too must any and all efforts we've made, that at the end of the day nothing matters. But that is not ultimately helpful to life. Mostly life doesn't contemplate itself like we do, so as an adopted philosophy to those who do contemplate it, it would seem "consistent" with what we see in how life lives for life's sake really, to choose a philosophy which helped us be apart of that, rather than nihilistic - or self eliminating, which is contrary to life. Suicide could be the choice, but it's a bad choice. We are part of life, and to live well is to live consistently with it.

 

Therefore I "choose" to see it as a meaningful exercise of existence. It has meaning, because I choose to see it as such: as Albert Camus conveyed in his Myth of Sisyphus, where Sisyphus is damned to pushing a heavy rock up a hill, only to have it fall back down every time, and in the end he decided that rather than living out his days in agony at the futility of the act, he chooses that the meaning of life for him is that rock! It's all a matter of chosen perception. I choose that life has meaning, and I choose that what I do and how I live matters to life, even though it could be concluded it's ultimately futile. To conclude fatalistically, is to deny myself my place in life. In that sense, it is a rational choice to simply believe. I just do so without having it be represented by an anthropomorphic deity.

 

All this is also true of many theists, and I would add yourself also. First, you have Christian Existentialists, such as Soren Kierkegaard, who through reason and rationality comprehend this irrationality of belief, yet choose to belief for it's own sake, in that belief in God is a good choice to make. This is what is known as the "Leap of Faith". It's an existential leap of faith beyond reason, accepting the irrational nature of faith for its own sake. Now where I'd say you make your own leap, is that you too choose to find meaning for your life, by embodying it in the symbol of God. You're doing the same thing as anyone else does who chooses life over death. You're choosing to believe. But the difference between you and those types of Christians (if my assumptions of you are correct), is that rather than acknowledging that the rational conclusion about God is that it violates reason, yet one chooses to believe anyway for the benefit of belief itself, you will make rational arguments to prove God, and thus struggle to satisfy your rational mind that you are "believing" because it has evidential support; not believing because belief is the point, but believing because your accepting something that is real in the same sense as a rock or a tree.

 

The problem with this is that it forces the "believer" at that point to confront mountains of contrary evidence, which rationally is so undeniable that it's my strong belief that those who attempt to deny and discredit it, are aware on a psychological level of their denial and ultimately do not have peace from their beliefs as a direct result. This is why I've said many times, that I respect those who know there's no evidence for God, yet choose to believe anyway because of the value it gives them, acknowledging they know it's not because of evidence and that therefore its true for them alone, and not objectively so. This is little different than the atheist existentialist who choose to believe life has meaning through the act of living for life's sake - such as myself.

 

Address your question?

[MathGeek]

You basically summed it up for me, Antlerman. I like the way Sartre summed it up: it is on your shoulders to believe or not.

 

As for the original post, I don't think the explanation is that simple. I think it really depends upon the issue on which one is nihilistic. Furthermore, what biological factors or personal experiences play into accepting nihilism as worldview? You could have been tortured and imprisonedfor 14 years and then suddenly released and have all this welled-up hatred for man and God. Don't such things count for something? I myself am nihilistic toward the concept of an God that demands total obedience and throws those who disobey at all into a fiery place forever and ever. That type of God is not one I want to worship. All in all, to have a nihilistic worldview means to a rather nihilistic of key issues in many fields of discipline, many aspects of life. Just because I choose not to believe in God doesn't mean I am totally nihilistic. I am not totally nihilistic about humanity because the majority of humanity is ethical.

 

The logic doesn't flow for me. Your worldview is eventually selected by choice and to delve into such rationale is inevitably circular.

[Eponymic]

Objectively? So you're saying you want to pretend to be a nihilist, and you use a term as objectively? Make up your mind. If you're gonna play the role, then get immersed into it, and don't play the rabbits game of jumping back and forth from nihilist to absolutist as it suits you. Argue from the nihilist point of view, and stay there.

 

Right on Han.

 

For me, PM, I choose not to debate this whole thing because I know you're still a Christian who's just looking for people to play teeter totter with; there is no real meat to your arguments because when it comes down to it, you don't believe it. And I don't enjoy mental masturbation like that.

 

Besides the fact that you are in fact ignoring arguments against your chosen standpoint.

[Legion]

I was thinking about this today. I can’t help but wonder if nihilism necessitates that one would have to view people as “walking piles of atoms”. For me this description seems to lead to little predictive value. And I can’t help but think that anthropologists would be seen as incompetent if their constructed explanations of human behavior were cast so briefly or were so narrow.

 

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

 

Well, I certainly think we are free to adopt this philosophical position, as we are many philosophical positions. But seeing as understanding might be useful and that we are often pragmatic we might still fruitfully discuss what having an understanding of existence entails.

[Outback Jack]

No, my position is, if you are an atheist, stop pretending life has meaning.

Pmodern, I am an atheist and now, thanks to your posts here, I see that my life has no meaning.

 

I no longer have any reason to live.

 

I will kill myself in 10 seconds and my blood will be on your hands.

 

 

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BANG

[Legion]

[Guest end3]

I was thinking about this today. I can’t help but wonder if nihilism necessitates that one would have to view people as “walking piles of atoms”. For me this description seems to lead to little predictive value. And I can’t help but think that anthropologists would be seen as incompetent if their constructed explanations of human behavior were cast so briefly or were so narrow.

 

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

 

Well, I certainly think we are free to adopt this philosophical position, as we are many philosophical positions. But seeing as understanding might be useful and that we are often pragmatic we might still fruitfully discuss what having an understanding of existence entails.

 

 

Exactly! Regardless of philosophy, we are moving to one end, whether we can help it or not. But the problem is, is endpoint dictated by zillions of years of evolution, or is the endpoint really a god. I am resting my case because that conclusion is soo damn precise

[Ouroboros]

No, my position is, if you are an atheist, stop pretending life has meaning.

Pmodern, I am an atheist and now, thanks to your posts here, I see that my life has no meaning.

That's something I'm still trying to figure out... what meaning are they talking about? When Christians say, "life has no meaning without Jesus," then you start to wonder about how 2/3rds of the world is not Christian, and still seems to be doing fine without the Jesus-meaning. And all the people before Jesus too! And what do they really mean? What meaning of life does a Christian really have? To die and go to Heaven? That's the big thing? Whoopdiidoo!!! Lets die and go to Heaven everyone!!! Or maybe the meaning of a Christian life is to witness for everyone, and if they don't listen, force them into Christianity or kill them? Yeah, that has been tried once before, and it wasn't really that successful... So what is it then? To start a family, have kids, and a career? Eh... you don't need Jesus for that. So what it is then? To whore-ship, sorry, worship God? M'kay... that sounds like fun... that's a very, very, good meaning of life, to stand on your feet with your hands in the air and closed eyes and sing songs? That's the whole "meaning of life" is about? I can do that without God. I can just stand up and sing along to some cool 10-ten songs or something, and do the same moves. So really. What is the Christian "meaning of life?"

[Guest end3]

No, my position is, if you are an atheist, stop pretending life has meaning.

Pmodern, I am an atheist and now, thanks to your posts here, I see that my life has no meaning.

That's something I'm still trying to figure out... what meaning are they talking about? When Christians say, "life has no meaning without Jesus," then you start to wonder about how 2/3rds of the world is not Christian, and still seems to be doing fine without the Jesus-meaning. And all the people before Jesus too! And what do they really mean? What meaning of life does a Christian really have? To die and go to Heaven? That's the big thing? Whoopdiidoo!!! Lets die and go to Heaven everyone!!! Or maybe the meaning of a Christian life is to witness for everyone, and if they don't listen, force them into Christianity or kill them? Yeah, that has been tried once before, and it wasn't really that successful... So what is it then? To start a family, have kids, and a career? Eh... you don't need Jesus for that. So what it is then? To whore-ship, sorry, worship God? M'kay... that sounds like fun... that's a very, very, good meaning of life, to stand on your feet with your hands in the air and closed eyes and sing songs? That's the whole "meaning of life" is about? I can do that without God. I can just stand up and sing along to some cool 10-ten songs or something, and do the same moves. So really. What is the Christian "meaning of life?"

 

Was religion invented to be a unifying force? I am asking as I really don't know.... But it seems more and more apparent that we are all searching for unity somewhat, in a form that will be pleasing to us all. Seriously, I don't think I am looking for anything different that an unbeliever.

[florduh]

Meaning of life?

 

pmodern won't really answer that question other than refer to "will it matter in 100 years" and something about "in the end," end of what I'm not sure.

 

If memory serves, as a Christian, I chose Jesus to be the meaning for me. As an Ex-C I choose other things because I now realize Jesus doesn't really exist.

 

The Meaning of Life™ is what we deem relevant and important, nothing more nor less. It's also a movie.