Anyone Know What The Fundamentalist Jew Is Up To

[snookums]

there are big differences between liberal Judaism and liberal Christianity!

 

"liberal" Jews across the modern Jewish "denominations" don't really even believe in God or an afterlife anymore... and about half of the world's Jews fall in this category.

 

In Judaism, a cultural movement in opposition to Orthodoxy and Hasidism called the "Haskalah"

started in Eastern Europe around the late 1700's. In Jewish circles, this movement was akin to the "Philosophical Enlightenment" that was sweeping Western Europe while the rest of Eastern Europe was slower to catch on. This movement evolved into "Reform Judaism" which moved to Britain and the USA during the mid 1800's.

 

"Reform Judaism" is not an oppressive monotheism and is not Marxist like liberal Christianity.

 

"Reform Jews" don't believe that you have to do any of the laws of the OT or the Talmud. Alot of Reform Jews don't believe in God, but if they do they don't deny anybody's right to question for themselves. They don't have to attend synagogue out of guilt or expectation and they teach that a "temple" is anywhere you make it. They love the arts and sciences and pretty much share a sensationalist, atheistic and materialist view with the rest of the industrial world. The idea of the "chosen people" was discarded, along with theological attachment to the land of Israel (now the attachment is historical/cultural/political). They believe in the autonomy of the individual.

 

A little more than half of the Jews in USA, Canada and Britain are Reform...around 4 million total. That's almost a third of the 13 million Jews left in the world, and about 60% of Israel's 5 million are not religious... meaning that the majority of Jews (7 million) in the world do not subscribe to some meta-historical/biblical myth.

 

85% of America's Jews who voted chose Kerry in the last American election, so only 15% max of America's Jews are neo-conservatives.

 

The only major so-called groups of "Fundamentalist Jews" who are fighting for "Eretz Israel" are the Gush Enumin and the Haredim who number together at most 500,000 or just at 10% of the total Israeli population. The have very little political pull in Israel, most of the other Jews in Israel roll their eyes at those guys and make fun of them in the newspapers, like the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz (each of which link up daily to the Drudge Report. Only 1000 of them actually agree to fight for the IDF, and even then they insist on having their own separate battalion. (look)

 

of the remaining 6 million Jews, 4 million are Orthodox/Hasidic in the diaspora and 2 million are orthodox in Israel. but this means that they hearken back to Yiddish times... medieval Poland and Spain... and to the Sages for doctrines and practices. They don't take the Torah literally and interpret it with multiple meanings. They think that the modern Israeli state is not truly Messianic, but have become more sympathetic with Israel since the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars. They don't believe in "Greater Israel." Most of them in Israel have an ultra-defensive mentality not unlike America's. So-called Zionists who founded Israel were actually a secular group who bought land (Baron Rothschild) and fought (Menacham Begin and David Ben-Gurion) for the territory they grabbed, whom the greater majority of "orthodox" Jews opposed until very recently.

 

the recent conflict in Lebanon is not religiously motivated the same way Zionism wasn't religiously motivated. "Fundie Jews" and religion weren't even factors, I'd call it "national security" instead.

 

Ok....I don't know that there is any such creature as a 'true christian'..so the discussion Re: differences between a liberal jew and a liberal xian isn't really a turn on for me.

It sounds like "judism'...has gone through quite similar transitions or 'splits' as the ..Umm...the Prespertrian's have (sorry about the spelling...but I'm crap at it).....I happen to have a lot of up front and personal contact with the Jewsih culture...I come from that neck of the woods...you mentions as being 'medieval'.....& .I don't think much has changed in some households...

 

I'm not sure I can accept that any conflict....in that area is without some 'religous' influence. Simply because its difficult for anyone to remain outside or unbaised from their culture. ...the whole gamet of it.

 

I also see that 'defensive' mentalitiy in the way America handles itself........that wouldn't be hard would it?

 

Definitions are a problem to any discussion I think........what do you call a person? that's basically what a definition is.....whether you call it 'fundie'...'orthodox'.... 'conservative'...or 'fanatic'...

I don't think anyone is going to put their hands up if its not a 'good' label.

 

i've know few 'orthodox' catholics who don't believe in god (full time...only at easter and xmas)

[Crunk Bishop]

snookums,

 

most of the debate in this thread has been about how some of us think you have been incorrect or "fact-impaired" in offering a monolithic and unimaginative interpretation of Israeli actions in Lebanon... such as: "the Fundamentalist Jews" are fighting Hezbollah over some concept of "greater Israel" derived from interpretations of land ownership from Abraham's OT covenant because the Israeli government is racist. Where have you shown any evidence, other than some dude's blog, to back up this claim?

 

maybe you should have titled this thread "look what the fascist Israeli government is doing."

 

But instead, you decided to call them "fundamentalists" simply because you disagree with what they are doing, insisting that religion is the basis for Israel's offensive just so you can take the moral high ground and call them bigoted. Journalists often call people they don't agree with religiously or politically "fundamentalists" as a smear tactic and this has seriously muddied the study of the category for scholars of history and religion.

 

All the other debate in this thread from you either has been dodging this original issue or claiming that you feel like you can't criticize Jews because of PC-ness.

 

on the contrary, others have offered good evidence that there are very few actual Jewish fundamentalists, and that they hold very little religious sway in Israel. Furthermore, being "Jewish" in Israel makes you no more of a "fundy" than being "Anglican" in England or even being Muslim in Mecca for that matter.

 

You can believe that the government of Israel is a "race-state" inflicting "apartheid" on Palestinians or that Judaism is an oppressive monotheism. I don't think you're a racist for thinking that, I just think you've got a skewed interpretation which misses some very basic facts about the Jewish people, religion and state.

[Crunk Bishop]

to your previous post (snookums),

 

yep, i totally agree that the term "fundy" is a hard wash with alot of different meanings. pretty much at this point in the academic study of Fundamentalism, scholars are seriously shopping for a better term.

 

if anyone can put up a better label for "fundamentalism"... let's write a paper about it and hit the academic conference circuit!!

 

and i don't think you're a racist because you don't support Israel's gov. i think you're right about how Muslims are getting the shaft around the world. the problem is so big now and doesn't even seem to have even small or temporary solutions.

 

 

 

i just see the Israeli conflict as more "nationalistic" than "religious."

[gangstaknitta]

Ex-Cog, you're doing some great research. Thanks for it.

 

I second this. Thank you, Ex-COG.

 

snookums,

 

most of the debate in this thread has been about how some of us think you have been incorrect or "fact-impaired" in offering a monolithic and unimaginative interpretation of Israeli actions in Lebanon... such as: "the Fundamentalist Jews" are fighting Hezbollah over some concept of "greater Israel" derived from interpretations of land ownership from Abraham's OT covenant because the Israeli government is racist. Where have you shown any evidence, other than some dude's blog, to back up this claim?

 

maybe you should have titled this thread "look what the fascist Israeli government is doing."

 

But instead, you decided to call them "fundamentalists" simply because you disagree with what they are doing, insisting that religion is the basis for Israel's offensive just so you can take the moral high ground and call them bigoted. Journalists often call people they don't agree with religiously or politically "fundamentalists" as a smear tactic and this has seriously muddied the study of the category for scholars of history and religion.

 

All the other debate in this thread from you either has been dodging this original issue or claiming that you feel like you can't criticize Jews because of PC-ness.

 

on the contrary, others have offered good evidence that there are very few actual Jewish fundamentalists, and that they hold very little religious sway in Israel. Furthermore, being "Jewish" in Israel makes you no more of a "fundy" than being "Anglican" in England or even being Muslim in Mecca for that matter.

 

You can believe that the government of Israel is a "race-state" inflicting "apartheid" on Palestinians or that Judaism is an oppressive monotheism. I don't think you're a racist for thinking that, I just think you've got a skewed interpretation which misses some very basic facts about the Jewish people, religion and state.

 

What he said. I'm done responding to Snookum's self-righteous overgeneralization and question-dodging.

[snookums]

snookums,

 

"fact-impaired"

 

 

 

Yep......isn't eveyone. And that's exactly what I said right at the start of this thread.

 

Is there any 'shame'...in saying 'I don't know'...?

 

yep, i totally agree that the term "fundy" is a hard wash with alot of different meanings. pretty much at this point in the academic study of Fundamentalism, scholars are seriously shopping for a better term.

 

if anyone can put up a better label for "fundamentalism"... let's write a paper about it and hit the academic conference circuit!!

 

and i don't think you're a racist because you don't support Israel's gov. i think you're right about how Muslims are getting the shaft around the world. the problem is so big now and doesn't even seem to have even small or temporary solutions.

 

 

 

i just see the Israeli conflict as more "nationalistic" than "religious."

 

Okay.....I think its a bit of both......and perhaps we can both see that 'nationalistic' is sometimes felt as a 'religion'....we can see that in a lot of 'national' events that celebrate the 'birthday' of a country.

Some countries..even have a pet name....like Uncle Sam.

 

Speaking generally....

 

 

 

I don't like the way gansta has appeared on this thread....firstly insults Zoe...and lastly insults me (more that once)...when I haven't addressed him specifically apart from the first time....

 

I don't like it.....its not only rude but the method...of joining forces with 'other's'....to me is very like what a bully tries on.....or that herd mentality.

Also I don't like to be judged by my atavar.....that a kind of 'racism'...don'tchathink?

 

 

Crank...your first reply today...seems to conflict with your last reply to me....I'm confused about how your really feel...

but i'm glad...that you aren't posing the idea that I'm simply a shithead racist....but even if I was...who are you or anyone to judge. (hasn't there been enough of that)

 

its hard to know what to call people.....'fundie' is one term that I use often.......but I do think there is a need for a better term....it doesn't take an 'academic' to figure that out....don't let my crap gramma fool yer.

 

anyway....I was comparing the xian with the jew......I did find a lot of similarity....as Pitchu also observes........*lucky*

and I guess...my question infered that I felt there was a definate possiblity that the muslim fundie...the xian fundy....and the jewish fundie may have something in common. Its very clear that the muslim & xian are entering politics in a big way...in several countries.

Its a reasonable...connection to make the the jewish fundies are similar (yep I think they exist)...and have been in the past........part of ancient history. What I'm suggesting is that the way people practise their religion is what makes a fundie....not necessarily the religion....or the denomination. ? who cares...

 

anyway...

 

.....the interpersonal relationship of this thread has occupied my thoughts and responses - I haven't had much time to 'research'.....but part of that is the PC stuff...and how conversations can be misdirected and directed by 'emotions'...or 'biases'........&.as I have already observed reading a whole lot of material online.....at many different kinds of chatrooms.

Mention the middleeast and things go crazy..........very hot very quickly.

perhaps I may have over-react when Zoe was ambushed........I've seen it before on other sites & a sudden arrival of new posters...I'm sure everyone has....they are called 'trolls'...

 

this thread has sure been a fuckup....I'm not sure I want to mention the word "jew" ......but that's not a good thing either.

 

 

 

 

sorry bout the rambling....*hits button without re-reading as per usual*

 

I think research is a good thing......but sometimes reading a book....is not as good as reading people. Anyone sick of reading the bible? and forgetting to look up and smell the shit in the air.....

 

I think...with you & I, Crank ...there's a wee bit common ground....(maybe)....

 

 

btw...why did you say you (was it you)...that other threads on this site re: Judism 'sadden' you?

[pitchu]

anyway....I was comparing the xian with the jew......I did find a lot of similarity....as Pitchu also observes........*lucky*

 

Pitchu observed that there was commonality among Jews and EX-Christians.

[snookums]

anyway....I was comparing the xian with the jew......I did find a lot of similarity....as Pitchu also observes........*lucky*

 

Pitchu observed that there was commonality among Jews and EX-Christians.

 

thats okay...I see a commonality between jews and christians...(to be fair ..all denominations)

 

and muslims...

 

I'll endevour to avoid 'misquoting' pitchu in the future - in fact I'll make sure of it.