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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species? What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow? Also, what would cause gills to become useless?

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Goddidit.

 

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species? What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow? Also, what would cause gills to become useless?

 

It happened in very small steps over a very long time.

 

Let’s use this illustration:

 

The law book in the US is a really huge volume of text. It didn’t evolve over night, and it wasn’t’ just one person involved doing it. If someone from another planet would come and look at it, they would say “How could one person come up with all this text in just one lifetime.” And the answer is; not one person, and not just one lifetime.

 

Like the law has been rewritten and modified and added on to, that’s what has been happening to nature too. Imagine the lawmakers and society as the agents of physical law and the nature. Over time things adjust, as a unguided “chaos” formula that at a distance have a beautiful and organized pattern but at the close observation you can see how intricate and complicated all lines move around and connects. (Like Mandelbrot’s Fractals or Julian Sets)

 

 

 

Today we have computer programs that write computer programs. Programming languages have evolved too, and today you even have genetic software that adjusts and modifies with random parameters to solve problems better. We have fuzzy logic that can answer problems without even give you exact numbers. You have neural networks to recognize patters and language. In just 10-15 years you will have a conscious computer that can think on your desktop.

 

Things evolve, it doesn’t just pop up, so to answer your question, is like answering; “how did we manage to figure out scientifically and mathematically from Archimedes until now how to build a computers?” It would take an awful long time to answer it, and with evolution we don’t know every step why a certain function was better suited than another at a certain time, but there’s plenty of proof that this happened, and is still happening.

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It happened in very small steps over a very long time.

 

Such as...

 

Let’s use this illustration:

 

The law book in the US is a really huge volume of text. It didn’t evolve over night, and it wasn’t’ just one person involved doing it. If someone from another planet would come and look at it, they would say “How could one person come up with all this text in just one lifetime.” And the answer is; not one person, and not just one lifetime.

 

Like the law has been rewritten and modified and added on to, that’s what has been happening to nature too. Imagine the lawmakers and society as the agents of physical law and the nature. Over time things adjust, as a unguided “chaos” formula that at a distance have a beautiful and organized pattern but at the close observation you can see how intricate and complicated all lines move around and connects. (Like Mandelbrot’s Fractals or Julian Sets)

 

This is a poor analogy.

 

It would take an awful long time to answer it, and with evolution we don’t know every step why a certain function was better suited than another at a certain time, but there’s plenty of proof that this happened, and is still happening.

 

Could you submit your best evidence?

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Such as...

This is a poor analogy.

Could you submit your best evidence?

 

Such as … many different mutations.

 

The analogy is to say that what looks complex today, took time to evolve.

I don't understand why that is a poor analogy?

 

When it comes to the evidence; we can’t know exactly why or when one particular mutation got more prominent and replaced other functions.

 

But to give you one example, the humans and chimpanzees share over 90% (IIRC 97%) of the pseudo genes.

 

You probably have been to this site, but go back there and look at the evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org

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Also, take note your analogy has a designer.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that, but that is not the question at hand.

 

You wanted to discuss evolution, in some peoples opinion the evolution was the tool God used to create the world we live in. God only made the computer software for Universe v1.0, and turned on the switch, and then let everything else run by itself, for the largest emulation ever created. So the question about a creator or not in this context is totally moot.

 

[edit]

 

The question you’re eluding is if evolution is a valid explanation to how we have become a rational and sentient being.

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species? What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow? Also, what would cause gills to become useless?

 

TRANSLATION

 

I do not know anything about evolution but I am going to pretend I do and put it down using ignorance and strawmen.

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Easy, easy, Lucifer ;)

 

I think he's a fish that wants to be caught, so let's reel him in...

 

[edit]

 

Let's not chew him out yet, but we will eventually :grin:

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species?

 

VVVVEEEERRRYYYYY SSSSSLLLLOOOOOWWWWLLLLLLLYYYYYY

 

What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow?

 

Miraculously grow? I dunno anything about miracles.

 

Also, what would cause gills to become useless?

 

Open air?

 

 

* EDIT *

 

But seriously, I notice your profile says you don't believe in god or gods, so what's your explanation?

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Maybe you want another analogy:

 

Computer software is executed by a CPU that only understands microcode. The macrocode is a very simple, but powerful and yet complicated matter to program. So you have a higher language to write your programs in. The first level is the assembler, which still is complicated to write, but you have tools to convert you assembler to the machine code. Because assembler takes an awful long time to write and is so complicated, you have another higher language above it, like C++ or something similar. There’s a compiler that convert you high level language down to assembler and then down to machine code, so the CPU can understand it.

 

If you look at software today, it’s very complicated and Windows for instance contains millions of lines of code. Now with code generators you can create large sections of the software without even programming.

 

For a novice the results looks really astonishing, and for a person that know nothing about computers and lets say that he's an aborigine, he would think the computer is magic, and the gods must have created it. He wouldn’t have the needed knowledge or understanding how this miracle works, but the fact is that it was built a simple step at the time.

 

Don’t underestimate Evolution, just because it looks too advanced and complicated. We don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle, but it doesn’t mean the theory actually works.

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VVVVEEEERRRYYYYY SSSSSLLLLOOOOOWWWWLLLLLLLYYYYYY

Miraculously grow?  I dunno anything about miracles.

Open air?

 

:grin: Good one.

 

[edit]

 

Oh, I forgot this link about pseudo genes:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/wieland.html

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species?
This is a rather broad question, and not one that can actually be answered in just a few setences, so I'm just going to move onto your next question, since the answer actually partially addresses what you've asked here.

 

What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow?
The answer. No single mutation would cause the fins to become legs. Granted, if it happened in one mutation, it would be a miracle. Luckily, no one with an ounce of competence thinks that.

 

First of all, there is evidence showing that fish developed bony fingers long before amphibians walked on land. So if you want to know where legs came from, it seems that fish were already well on their way to developing them. Why would fish develope powerful limbs? Well, not for walking, certainly, but more powerful limbs make for better control in the water.

 

But can fish walk with their fins? The mudskipper can.

 

 

Also, what would cause gills to become useless?
Negative mutation. Believe it or not, negative mutations are just as much a part of evolution as positive ones. The fact that land animals don't need gills make it a positive adaption to lose them.

 

But what would cause them to go? Simple. They were no longer needed. Simply put, when a gene is no longer important for a species' survival, it can mutate and become inactive without any negative effects.

 

Take for example the human gene for producing Vitamin C. Genecists have found this gene within our DNA, but it's mutated and become deactivated. As a result we no longer produce Vitamin C in our own bodies. Is this bad? Not really, because we get enough of it from fruits that it never hindered our progress anyway.

 

Traits become useless when they are no longer needed and their destruction doesn't affect a species' survival.

 

If you want more references, you can always follow some of the references given at the following page: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC212.html

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species?

 

Have you ever heard of mudskippers (sorry Neil I just saw your post after I mailed this)? These little guys hang out in mangrove swamps and mudflats. Living close to the shore wouldn't be too advantageous unless you can exploit the natural environment. These little guys have speak volumes for evolutionary theory.

 

boddarti_fight.jpg

 

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~thebobo/intro.htm

 

Best read up on mutations.

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How could a fish-like species evolve into an amphibian-like species? What mutation could miraculously cause four legs to grow? Also, what would cause gills to become useless?

 

 

 

Ah hem.. if you are serious about your question, please go to a real biologist, not us. We may know how to generally explain such things, but you need to study science for yourself and have a discussion with an evolutionary biologist. If you don't, it just proves that you arent searching for truth, you are just merely posting to boost your own world view by practicing circular reasoning.

 

Stop trolling message boards for unsuspecting educated folks who support evolution and go to a real source. I even challenge you to go to talkorigins.com (as some have suggested) if you are too chicken to take some real science courses.

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Why do I get the feeling we have a fool, posing as an atheist?

 

EDIT: It could also be a "not religion, relationship" moron. Or maybe just someone curious and trying to be skeptical, I don't know.

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Why do I get the feeling we have a fool, posing as an atheist?

 

And why do I get the same impression? :blink:

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Or maybe he's one of those rare atheists who don't accept evolution. Who knows...

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Or maybe he is testing us to see if we know our shit

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I was just thinking about a better illustration for you.

 

The internet, it’s in itself a self guiding chaotic creature, that’s evolving and improving. Some of the methods used to govern and marshal network performance through the hubs are based on genetic algorithms, so in an essence your message to this site had to go through a complex pattern of ordered chaos.

 

Tell me, how many bits and hops did it take to get your question to this thread?

 

How could the miraculous event occur that your message got here?

 

Who/What moved that message, in specific, to the server and into the database? (was it divine or automatition)

 

And what procedures and how many functions calls in the server side scripting module were required to post the message?

 

And why is this one of the first postings you've done since you signed up???

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How could Homo sapiens de-evolve into something more primitive? What conditions must be present to rewire a brain geared for cognitive reasoning and independent thought and turn it into a lethargic organ devoid of inquiry and primed for “programming” from the outside. What could cause the human mind to become useless?

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How could Homo sapiens de-evolve into something more primitive? What conditions must be present to rewire a brain geared for cognitive reasoning and independent thought and turn it into a lethargic organ devoid of inquiry and primed for “programming” from the outside. What could cause the human mind to become useless?

Christianity?

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Guest aexapo
VVVVEEEERRRYYYYY SSSSSLLLLOOOOOWWWWLLLLLLLYYYYYY

Miraculously grow?  I dunno anything about miracles.

Open air?

* EDIT *

 

But seriously, I notice your profile says you don't believe in god or gods, so what's your explanation?

 

There are species of fish which live and swim in caverns and underground rivers. Due to the lack of sunlight, they have lost their sight and pigmentation. Why? The answer is obvious -- because they no longer need them, and not being a trait that ensures survival, those genes slowly leave. Otherwise, these fish are identical to their cousins of the same species in "open sun" bodies of water -- where those characteristics are very much needed.

 

This is the essence of evolution -- gradual change over time.

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Makes me wonder you know...

 

...if we could remove all those sheeple from the population and place them in "primal" surroundings, like an uninhabited tropical island - along with disease, predators, whathaveyou - just how thoroughly would they fail to survive, and thus prove evolution? :fdevil:

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Such as … many different mutations.

 

But, evolution’s mutation mechanism does not explain how growth of a genome is imaginable. How can point mutations increase a strand of DNA or create new chromosomes? It is very interesting that, in all of the selective breeding in dogs, there has been no change to the dog genome. All breeds of dog can still mate with one another. People have not seen any addition in dog’s DNA, but have simply selected different genes from the existing dog gene pool to create the different breeds.

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