Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 The interesting thing is how much I used to love Josh McDowell et al. when I was a Christian. The human mind's power for self-delusion is quite amazing really - conveniently overlooking aspects of the argument that don't make sense and ignoring arguments from the opposing side because hey, after all - those atheists are living under the dominion of Satan and therefore anything they say is just Satan speaking through them to tempt us away from God, right? That sentence was too long. Satan clearly has a bad grasp on grammar. I do frigging long sentences, and postings, all the time. It's forgiven dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Cerise,You asked “then how can it have an effect on us in any way?” The same way you can have an effect on the contents of a box you build. “It” just reaches inside. Polytheism? No. I do not believe in it. I don’t believe you can have more than one all-powerful being. So you do know how to use Occam’s razor! The problem is that you wouldn’t be hired as a butcher, because you cut to far from the bone. You only need to cut with the knife slightly closer to the bone, and then you have it. No God at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I am basing my position on the fact that science has pretty much conceded the universe had a beginning. I think this leads to some logical conclusions. To me it seems logical that something had to exist outside the properties of the universe in order to be able to create the universe. Something had to be outside the properties of space/time and energy/matter. Because it exist outside of our space/time makes it eternal from our perspective. Therefore, the question of “What created it?” doesn’t apply. From our perspective, it has always been. Because it exist outside of our know properties of space/time and energy/matter makes it supernatural. Because (from our perspective again) it was able to create everything, it is all-powerful. And yes, in my mind, I do assume God, the Creator, and the All-Powerful to be the same. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As I read these things, I gotta say that they make a lot of sense to me. Invictus really does present overwhelming evidence for a creator. Since the creator existed before time began, these things have to be true. As I read Invictus' words, I could feel the overwhelming sense of guilt at having doubted our glorious creator. I could feel the heavy weight of my sin. I stand convicted. That's it. I'm going back. TO MY FAITH IN THE IPU!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Thurisaz,Nice language skills. Come back when you can intelligently present your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Invictus, if the singularity was: A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted. It was not nothing. It was a heck of a lot of something in one spot.If the singularity was: A point at which the derivative does not exist for a given function but every neighborhood of which contains points for which the derivative exists. Also called singular point. Then everything there and beyond (if there could be a beyond) is unkown. Perhaps you could say that something "beyond" came and told us it was beyond, but to my knowledge that has never happened. The bible doesn't address the singularity in either guise. In fact it would appear from Genesis 1:2 that God made the earth out of something, not nothing. The description of something does not sound like a singularity. The alleged revelation doesn't say that God predates the something. God may have coexisted with the something. God may have evolved from the something. However, since there is evidence of something, and no evidence of God, by the principle of parsimony we can only conclude something alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 In fact it would appear from Genesis 1:2 that God made the earth out of something, not nothing. The description of something does not sound like a singularity. The alleged revelation doesn't say that God predates the something. God may have coexisted with the something. God may have evolved from the something. However, since there is evidence of something, and no evidence of God, by the principle of parsimony we can only conclude something alone. Exactly. Actually God could be the singularity, or maybe God was created when the Universe was created. There's so many possibilities, that you can only speculate and fantasize, but we can't know. At least not right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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