Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Ah...Strong Atheism....how I love saying that. Any others who feel the same as moi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areformedthinker Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Whats the difference between strong atheism and other kinds of atheism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmallStone Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Whats the difference between strong atheism and other kinds of atheism? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Google is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areformedthinker Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Google is your friend. Good Point. I will go check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 There's also this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- AUB - Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I've defended strong atheism here many times, I'm onto meta-naturalism now so it's getting easier to go on the offensive. The guys at http://strongatheism.net/ have been very helpfull, and have had some good talks with Tremblay, smart guy, he has given me greater confidence in logic, as he creams even the best apolagists with it. Are the strong A's here also moral objectivists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 I've been thinking about that...and I'm still wondering if there is moral objectivity even with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valgeir Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I border on strong atheism. I'm also a believer in the concept that there is no objective moral code, "morality" is purely subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Valgeir: but then we get into the whole "so hitler was right!" thing. I think there are only 3 things that should be considered immoral: murder, stealing, abuse (both physical and mental). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 http://www.strongatheism.net is your friend. Consult it, love it, whisper sweet words into its ear at night. I've been thinking about that...and I'm still wondering if there is moral objectivity even with God. Your question is reversed. You should first ask "is there moral objectivity with God" ? The answer is no. In the Christian worldview, every material fact comes from God's will, therefore they are all subjective, including morality. Also, you may have heard about Euthyphro's Dilemma, which is just another way of formulating this fundamental subjectivity. The logical consequence of the Christian worldview is a Cartoon Universe where the Sun can stop, donkeys can talk, and people can come back from the dead and rocket to the sky, because the universe is a subjective construct. As for the rational-scientific worldview, it certainly can account for moral objectivity. There are plenty of causal facts which apply to human action. I discuss this in the Philosophy question, but since I know this is the hardest issue for people to understand, I am always ready to answer thoughtful questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheist_thinker Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Strong atheism sounds ok to me. I gree that if one sees somthing as moral another will see differently. I just follow the "golden rule" and the "ask first rule". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 http://www.strongatheism.net is your friend. Consult it, love it, whisper sweet words into its ear at night. Your question is reversed. You should first ask "is there moral objectivity with God" ? The answer is no. I did do that, and I did conclude no. haha, one up on the ol' tremblay!! As for the rational-scientific worldview, it certainly can account for moral objectivity. There are plenty of causal facts which apply to human action. I discuss this in the Philosophy question, but since I know this is the hardest issue for people to understand, I am always ready to answer thoughtful questions. Well...that's difficult to digest that there is absolute morality. Morality comes from society, or animals living in society. It's just basically guidelines on how to behave within society so that we can survive together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Well...that's difficult to digest that there is absolute morality. I didn't state "absolute" morality. Morality is not an absolute. Certain moral facts - such as the necessity of values - are absolutes, but most are not. Morality comes from society, or animals living in society. It's just basically guidelines on how to behave within society so that we can survive together. You are confusing the origin (instinctual and pragmatic) of morality in our brains with the factual deduction of morality. Looking at the evolution of the brain tells us why people do the things they do, but not the nature of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 I didn't state "absolute" morality. Morality is not an absolute. Certain moral facts - such as the necessity of values - are absolutes, but most are not.You are confusing the origin (instinctual and pragmatic) of morality in our brains with the factual deduction of morality. Looking at the evolution of the brain tells us why people do the things they do, but not the nature of reality. So explain how morality is objective...I'd like to know, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 So explain how morality is objective...I'd like to know, really. Well, it's a long story I'm afraid, which is why I pointed people on this thread to my web site first. As I put it on an earlier post, morality is derived from causal facts that apply to human action. Causality states : THINGS CHANGE ACCORDING TO THEIR NATURE, and this includes the fact that HUMAN ACTION CHANGES ITS CONTEXT (one's body and mind, other people, the food we eat and the air we breathe, etc) ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF THAT CONTEXT. Based on causality, we can deduce human needs and the conditions in which they are fulfilled. This is what we call VALUES. Like I said, any overview of this sort can't really give it justice. I won't be able to help you grasp this fully unless you read the examples and concepts I explain in my articles (or in other explanations - for a book on the topic, I heavily recommend "Logical Structure of Objectivism", by David Kelley, or "Living Life" by something Biddle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Yea, I have your site bookmarked and toolbarred. But human needs evolve with humans. So our values change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Amplifier Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Franc, It's nice to see you over here! Welcome! R.A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- AUB - Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Great to see u here Tremblay, they're some good minds here, and unlike arguing with a theist i think our position will be tested far better here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Why absolutely, people's values change. So does our knowledge grow as we gain more evidence. That's what progress is all about. Doctrines are the antithesis of rational thought. Thank you for the welcome guys, but I'm not planning to go outside of this thread, that is unless someone else makes a thread on another strong atheistic or materialist topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Unless I engage in a debate, I suppose. There doesn't happen to be any presuppositionalist around is there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Why absolutely, people's values change. So does our knowledge grow as we gain more evidence. That's what progress is all about. Doctrines are the antithesis of rational thought. Thank you for the welcome guys, but I'm not planning to go outside of this thread, that is unless someone else makes a thread on another strong atheistic or materialist topic. Ok, so how is that objective morality then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Unless I engage in a debate, I suppose. There doesn't happen to be any presuppositionalist around is there ? Paul manata....but I think he cried and went home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francois Tremblay Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Paul Manata ? Heh. I'm part of a blog that was started to refute his silly claims. We're having fun kicking his ass, as well as his mindless sycophantic fans. Not sure what your question "so how is that objective morality then?" refers to. Something is objective if it is based on the facts of reality. Values are based on facts of reality, thus they are objective. I trust you follow the logic ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Yes, that certainly does help, Franc. I guess I wasn't fully understanding what objective meant. I equated it with absolute...thus my problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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