Communicating With A Believing Wife...

[GraphicsGuy]

Hi everyone,

 

I just posted my "testimony" here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=17947

 

One of my primary questions at the moment is: How do I communicate my convictions with my wife who is a believer?

 

Honestly, I don't care if she does believe or not. It's just that we've never had a lot in common and now this is just one more thing to add to the list.

 

She understands what I've gone through and last month she finally understood where I'm at with my faith and such. Unfortunately she keeps saying that I just need to "start over" with God.

 

Where am I supposed to "start"???

 

We do still go to church because she wants the kids to believe and wants me to be a "good example" for them.

 

I don't know. Even though I'm not depressed anymore I still feel like life is being sucked out of me.

[mwc]

Welcome to the site.

 

I can relate to where you're at...although I'm probably not one to take advice from in this particular department. My wife and I don't have any kids but we did have a major blow-out over religion and it's never been the same.

 

One thing that does come to mind is why are you still going to church? What is this "example" you are setting? That you are a hypocrite? That your wife controls you? What exactly? I'm sure it's to "keep the peace" but obviously you care more about her peace than your own. You give more credence to her idea of "starting over with god" than she does with your idea of "there is no god." Your kids obviously complicate matters since they can quickly become "pawns" in this and I'm not advocating that by any means but you can see the lessons this is(n't) teaching them. More importantly, on the "adult" side of things, it should be showing you the respect aspect between you and your wife.

 

Anyhow, as I said, I'm extremely close to a situation like this and I tend to get a little bothered when I see others going through similar problems but I'm always afraid my judgment is a bit clouded as well so take my advice for what it's worth.

 

mwc

[Former Follier]

GraphicsGuy:

 

You can still be a fantastic role model and a great parent to your children as well as a wonderful, supportive and loving husband to your wife regardless of your lack of belief. One of the biggest flaws in the logic of believers is that they feel our atheism, agnosticism, free thought or simply rejection of Christianity somehow permeates the rest of our views, outlooks and relationships.

 

Granted, leaving a faith can often cause you to scrutinize things more than before but to assert that you will turn the eye of scrutiny on your relationships (especially familial) is absurd. Nearly all of the members of my extended family are believers and nothing has changed in the way I view and accept them. As is often the case, though, some of them have changed their opinion of me.

 

I wouldn't feel good about offering any sort of advise concerning private dealings in your marriage but as has often been related here at Ex-C, just be sure to supportive and emotionally available to your wife. Show her that nothing has changed between the two of you and that you've lost faith in something that cannot be or is not known to you, not the love that you two share.

 

I really don't have any experience with sharing my lack of belief with my partner as my fiancee is also a free-thinker. I do have plenty of experience with talking to friends and extended family members, though. All the best to you.

[GraphicsGuy]

Hi guys, thank you very much for the replies. Very, very good advice and, mwc, you explicitly nailed some of the questions I've been asking myself.

 

Gee, how'd you guys get to be so smart without God or the Bible?

[NearlyInsane]

If it was me, I'd let the wife take the kids to church (that battle is not ready to be fought), but there's no reason you have to go too. I personally think that your staying home is a great example. It's an example that you don't have to believe that crap. I am serious about that, btw, as I didn't have any such example growing up. I had plenty of examples of hypocrites, but I never met anyone who really didn't believe in christianity until college. That simple idea would've given me a much-needed refuge throughout my lifetime of terror from religious abuse.

 

I have a 10-yr-old daughter & I've been wrestling w/ the idea of raising a heathen child since before she was born. In the end I've found it easier to be a moral example as a non-xian, frankly. I can be 100% true to my value system. There are no conflicts there. I can explain any action to her w/ out having to make excuses. It's great, really.

[GraphicsGuy]

Thanks NearlyInsane,

 

I quite agree. I was thinking the other day of the crazy Xian notion that atheists immoral. I used to pretty much think so, but as I got older and started seeing very immoral Christians and very moral unbelievers I really began to question hell and a bunch of other beliefs. At times, things would snowball until I wasn't a believer, but then my good old hormone deprived brain would go seeking a fix and I'd be back in the fundie camp.

 

Yeah, I really need to sit down and talk with my wife about it. Unfortunately, I have the expectation that it may go very bad...

[NearlyInsane]

Thanks NearlyInsane,

 

I quite agree. I was thinking the other day of the crazy Xian notion that atheists immoral. I used to pretty much think so, but as I got older and started seeing very immoral Christians and very moral unbelievers I really began to question hell and a bunch of other beliefs. At times, things would snowball until I wasn't a believer, but then my good old hormone deprived brain would go seeking a fix and I'd be back in the fundie camp.

A few years ago my brother initiated an email conversation in which he tried to argue me back into the fold. When he hit the 'atheists are immoral' bit, he said something to the effect of, "If there were no god there would be nothing to keep me from killing someone". I responded by commenting that if his fear of hell was the only thing keeping him from going on a murderous rampage, it would seem that HE was the one whose morality was lacking! He hasn't mentioned morality to me since, lol.

 

 

Yeah, I really need to sit down and talk with my wife about it. Unfortunately, I have the expectation that it may go very bad...

I can imagine. That's not going to be a fun conversation.

[GraphicsGuy]

I responded by commenting that if his fear of hell was the only thing keeping him from going on a murderous rampage, it would seem that HE was the one whose morality was lacking! He hasn't mentioned morality to me since, lol.

 

Ooooo...that's a good one. I know that Christians repress a lot of emotions and those emotions will often come out in strange ways - very often violently. I think they may think that all non-Christians repress as well, but most non-Christians actually do what they want to do so there isn't as much repression and acting out and they're often more stable people.

 

I realize that a bit of a blanket generalization, but I think it may be true for the larger percentage.

 

Kind of off topic now, but oh well.

[NearlyInsane]

I know that Christians repress a lot of emotions and those emotions will often come out in strange ways - very often violently. I think they may think that all non-Christians repress as well, but most non-Christians actually do what they want to do so there isn't as much repression and acting out and they're often more stable people.

I believe you're right. That's one problem (of the many) with christianity. Too much repression of things that aren't harmful causes leakage. When they act out, they'll usually do it in a way that they can hopefully be kept secret, & since they see so many healthy acts as sinful, & equate them with much more harmful things, it can easily lead to some pretty awful behavior. On top of that, lots of horrible behavior is done in the name of religion, like psycho fundy parents beating the tar out of their kids.

[GraphicsGuy]

On top of that, lots of horrible behavior is done in the name of religion, like psycho fundy parents beating the tar out of their kids.

 

I don't know if I ever knew any of those types, but I certainly agree. There are parents that will try to control every aspect of their kids' lives. It's like they do everything to suppress a kids personality and then wonder why he/she runs off and starts getting in all kinds of trouble during their teenage years or later.

 

When it happens in non-Christian homes Christians blame it on schools and government and lack of morals when it really is nothing more than lax or plain bad parenting. Kids still need to be taught that life is tough and won't do them any favors.

 

When it happens in Christian homes then they blame the devil or say that the kids faith was weakened by outside influences or whatever. Really, again, it's just bad parenting...they grip and control and wonder why the kid bolts first chance they get.

[mwc]

Just don't forget that in any conversation you might have that your emotional experience simply won't matter as much as the xians emotional experience since they are experiencing "god" and you're not. Your emotions, your understanding of the "scripture" (even if the moment just prior to your "coming out" they were agreeing with your views 100% and you never changed a word) and pretty much just everything is discounted and/or dismissed. You are now under the control of, or at least blinded by, the forces of "evil" (aka Satan/the devil). This is also why you're about to go on a baby eating binge (that and babies are just so darn tender compared to tough older people...can you really blame us?).

 

In my case I was expected to "prove" every last word that came out of my mouth, and then some, and even when I did it still wasn't enough. I rarely got responses (or got hedging and promises of future responses) and that just made things worse. It was like watching xians on this site only I was in the same house so I could actually yell at them. Not good. Bringing it to them on this site (I had the good fortune of getting here when we had a string of targets come by) really helped me out.

 

mwc

[GraphicsGuy]

Thanks mwc, I appreciate that.

 

Obviously, my main concern is that if my opinions and views cannot be accepted as equal and if I am not going to be respected then I may just have to up and leave. Not a pretty scenario and it makes me a little apprehensive to say the least.

[NearlyInsane]

It was actually FUN having this conversation w/ my brother vie email. In person is MUCH harder. Email is awesome, because you can hold the other person accountable for every word they say. The main tools of christianity are switch & bait - it doesn't work when your opponent can copy/paste things you've said in the past to rebut your current argument.

 

But a face-to-face with a believing spouse... I recommend ask your doctor to prescribe some kind of tranquilizer, and I'm dead serious about that. In fact, the most telling conversation I ever had with my ex-husband was when I was under the influence of a prescription pain killer, & was basically numb on the couch while he was ranting & raving. I could mentally process everything he said, but too numb to respond by anything more than, "What's the problem? What are you upset about?" etc. This only made him more mad, & as he ranted harder & harder, & I sat calmly listening to him & to my 2-yr-old daughter clumsily repeating his raving ("fucking bitch," "cunt," etc.), the nature of our relationship became crystal clear.

 

At any rate, some anti-anxiety meds can calm your anxiety to a tolerable level, & make the conversation not seem like the end of the world.

[mick]

My wife still believes and is a very, very fundamenalist Word-Faith type Christian. (likes Benny Hinn, and all the crazy faith healers, etc) Her church does not even subscribe to that stuff. I have told her that she cannot take our kids to any other church than the one we have been members in for 15 years. (Though it is evangelical, I am really beginning to discover how non-fundamentalist it is for the most part. It pays lip service to the Bible and the "Gospel". However, noone who goes there really wants to know what's in the Bible.) I was a deacon and a Bible teacher there for many years before I deconverted 2 years ago. I don't go and will NEVER set foot in a evangelical church again unless it is for a wedding or a funeral.

 

True story: My 11 year old son is like an in the closet non-believer because of his mother. (Stays in the closet because he does not want his mother to bother him)

The funny thing is he was already no longer believing before I came out and said I was not a Christian any longer. He came to me and told me that his mother (quite naively) would always tell him to go to his room and just read his Bible. (She was naive because she did not realize that this was the very thing that would actually destroy his faith.) He is very smart and he just started reading through the OT. He started to find all of the horrible scriptures about the actions of Yahweh, the digusting laws, etc. He told me all about it only AFTER I came out as not believing. I know that he really did do it on his own, because he was sharing scriptures with me that I did not even remember ever reading. He came across so many of them that he abandoned the faith on his own. He told me he felt trapped because both his mother and his father claimed this was the word of "god".

 

Anyway, it is tough to make the peace in this type of marriage. I truly do love my wife. I now see her more as a human being who is a victim of evil Bull Shit. It is hard on the marriage, but you have to decide what to do that is best for the family without compromising yourself. I refuse to go to church anymore. We tithed 10% of our GROSS income for 15 years. I insisted on that dropping to 5% (to keep my wife happy, she doesn't work, but to also remove my "half") It sickens me that they still get as much as they do from me still, but I do it for my wife. My wife and I have had some ups and downs with it. Even today she said she wished I was going to church with her. I said "sorry hun, no way."

 

I feel for you. I have 2 other friends who deconverted with me. One right before me, and the other deconverted because he was trying to "save me" from falling away. When I showed him everything he completely melted down. Now he is a bigger apologist AGAINST the faith then I am. It is helpful to have these 2 friends. One of them said something to me that has really stuck with me. He said, "It took me like 6 months to get completely sucked into "Born Again Christianity" and then 19 years before I could dig myself out". The same is really true for me and my other friend. You get so trapped by the "mind trap" of Christianity, that when your own intuition and conscious trys desparately to tell you something is wrong with it all, you label that as "Satan". Think of how awful that is. Some part of your own mind becomes labeled as "Not you", and "evil". That is a sick mind that needs help. You no longer even trust your inate intuition, reason, or judgement. The reason I share that is because I am glad that my children, though they still go to church, have totally questioned everything at this young age. The depth of their "mid traps" will be far more shallow than mine was. At some point way earlier in their lives then I did they will see Christianity and the Bible as silly bull shit. I think because we know it is false, and because we know the anguish it can cause, children should be protected from brainwashing. Like it or not, this has become your duty to them. I see myself as a protector of the minds of my children. I must also find a way to simultaneously love their mother, who would gladly see them brainwashed. You can talk to me any time. -Mike

[mick]

Hi Burnedout,

 

I must say you likely have a reasonable wife if you can even have the conversation. Some Christian wives (or husbands I guess) simply will not respond to reason. My wife actually, literally believes, in space and time, in the "power" of her god. If we EVER discuss it rationally she will rebuke me as from the Devil and that my eyes and heart are darkened. I'll even say something like "hun, I have read the ENTIRE Bible, but you have not even looked at most of it (TRUE FACT), YET you say that you understand it better than me? She often will start "speaking in tounges quite literally AT me, when the conversation goes in that direction. That is why I consider my job to be the protection of my children's minds, and nothing else.

 

I have to say, my wife and daughter are still believers however, I don't ever bring up the subject because none of us go to church any longer. However, if I had a wife who was a ranting maniac, I would simply hit her with some very carefully placed questions....such as; If the God of the Bible is so loving, why have the whole bloody mellowdrama of history if He is capable of righting everything with his words spoken from His mouth? She would, if she has a few brain cells, respond with something like this; ...Because he is not a dictator, he gives us free will to choose him or not. I then respond with this; Why even do that since he already knows what we will choose....By doing what he supposedly is doing is cruelty of the highest form, that would be like someone who sees a major car wreck coming and in effect actively doing nothing to stop it, and that is even considered criminal negligence in many states. Buy sending someone to Hell for not choosing him and saying it is a choice, that is not choice, that is extortion. Plus, if Adam and Eve sinned and he then condemned the rest of humanity to a fallen state and Hell for the sin of the ancestors...is that not arbitrary and cruel? He could have fixed the sin problem before the foundations of the earth and Man would choose God and would have Freedom to choose, ...say that is not possible,...Is God not GOD? If your wife responds with something like; We are not to be judging God, who are we but creations?...I would say then,..do you not have a stake in this life? If I have a stake in something, I should have a say. Or...perhaps everything is just random and the rest is just something made up by ancient peoples to explain and make sense of life under their limited viewpoint.

 

That little semidialogue is an example of how I would deal with her.

[sparkyone]

GraphicsGuy,

I can identify with the whole believing spouse situation and trying to keep the peace by continuing to go to church and the kids going and so on. I started deconverting about 2 years ago and kept going to church once a week much of last school year because my boys were in the church school. Our whole family was supposed to go faithfully three times a week, but I couldn't do that anymore. Like someone said, it was sucking the life out of me even though my depression had lifted. After school was over at the end of May I went to one more service just to get the report cards (yes, they hand them out at a church service) and don't go there any more. I've attended a few other churches, but it's gotten to where I can't take it anymore. I've been avoiding Baptist churches, but I've found that Disciples of Christ and Lutheran and Presbyterian are pretty similar to each other and my boys and I walked out during the Lord's Prayer this morning at the Presbyterian church. My husband is a different matter since he still believes in the Bible and the Baptist faith, although I think attending a southern Baptist church is a step forward for him since that's considered liberal by the fundy Baptist standard where we used to attend. He's in another state getting things ready for us to move and goes to church with his parents, who he lives with right now. Our boys will be going to a public school this year, which is a first for them.

It was hard for me during the early part of the process to say no to going to church with my husband because he really wanted me to go. I felt guilty or uneasy about missing services for awhile and that faded eventually. At least he didn't pull the husband as head of the wife thing that our former pastor believes so strongly. He used to encourage me to go but agreed that I was able to make up my own mind after I pushed for it. That's enough rambling for now, but I can certainly sympathize with you.

Sparkyone

[mwc]

That little semidialogue is an example of how I would deal with her.

It seems so easy until you're in the conversation and then it devolves into something almost surreal. Someone who is seemingly rational in pretty much every other situation suddenly invokes magic and calls you into question for not believing in magic any longer. You then are on the defense for not being able to disprove magical events that supposedly happened centuries ago and never happen today (yet happen all the time). The strange irony is how you can then explain the belief systems of others and this same person will scoff at how ridiculous these people are/were for believing such silly things while never seeing you just explained their belief system using other terms.

 

It really does become so much easier to avoid the situation altogether but it does drive a wedge (at least in my case) between you because for me it seems that if I can't discuss this what else can't I discuss? I don't want to happen across it and have it wind up a huge mess like religion ended up being. Kind of like walking into a conversational mine-field as it were. It has made me much more guarded than I used to be.

 

mwc

[GraphicsGuy]

It seems so easy until you're in the conversation and then it devolves into something almost surreal.

 

*sigh* Yeah, well that's what happened yesterday. The subject came up kind of accidentally and degenerated very quickly when I said I didn't believe in god anymore. She doesn't seem to think my reasons are good enough and that I never believed the "real" truth.

 

It looks like my marriage is probably over. This on top of all the crap I did when my hormones were out of whack has just been too much for her. She wants me to start looking for an apartment or something.

[mwc]

I'm sorry to hear about your marriage. Maybe it's for the better? Only hindsight will be able to answer that but unfortunately that doesn't make the here and now any easier.

 

mwc

[sparkyone]

It seems so easy until you're in the conversation and then it devolves into something almost surreal.

 

*sigh* Yeah, well that's what happened yesterday. The subject came up kind of accidentally and degenerated very quickly when I said I didn't believe in god anymore. She doesn't seem to think my reasons are good enough and that I never believed the "real" truth.

 

It looks like my marriage is probably over. This on top of all the crap I did when my hormones were out of whack has just been too much for her. She wants me to start looking for an apartment or something.

I'm so sorry, Graphicsguy. I can't imagine how awful that must feel. I'd be devastated if my husband turned his back on me because of our differences in belief.

Sparkyone

[DanInPA]

It seems so easy until you're in the conversation and then it devolves into something almost surreal.

 

*sigh* Yeah, well that's what happened yesterday. The subject came up kind of accidentally and degenerated very quickly when I said I didn't believe in god anymore. She doesn't seem to think my reasons are good enough and that I never believed the "real" truth.

 

It looks like my marriage is probably over. This on top of all the crap I did when my hormones were out of whack has just been too much for her. She wants me to start looking for an apartment or something.

 

I'm late to this thread but...damn,bro! that's tougher than anything I went through with my wife! I've nothing to offer but *man hugs* and If you'd like a friend feel free to PM me.

 

Dan

[NearlyInsane]

Wow, that didn't take long. Wish there was something I could say that would make it easier...

[NearlyInsane]

You know, this just goes to show how serious it is when someone leaves christianity. To me it emphasizes the reason this board & website exist. Losing one's religion is no small matter; it can quite literally end relationships. It's life-altering, and we had no choice in this - you can't choose what you believe or stop believing.

 

I came limping back to the internet looking for support after many years of being deity-free because even the few people I know who aren't rabidly religious have absolutely no idea why anything to do w/ religion can be even mildly upsetting to me.

 

I don't think I'll ever escape entirely. Xianity is so wrapped up into my self-identity from my earliest memories up to early adulthood, that I can't just erase those parts. I can try to ignore them, but they keep coming back to haunt me.

 

I hope you find some peace in your situation, GraphicsGuy. It's a mess, but you're pretty much stuck with it, so might as well try to make the best of it.

[GraphicsGuy]

Thanks everyone for all the support. Really, I think the breakdown was inevitable anyway simply because the marriage has been difficult for years now. It probably is for the best overall.

 

It's life-altering, and we had no choice in this - you can't choose what you believe or stop believing.

 

NI, this is exactly what I tried to explain to my wife. I can't MAKE myself believe it. If I do that, my faith isn't real and I'm just ignoring all the questions that I have. I simply cannot reconcile my brain-altering hormone deficency with all the supposed "promises" for healing in the Bible. I can't accept that maybe it just "wasn't god's will" to heal me. I can't accept that god is real when all the "proof" I had was all in my head.

 

Overall, I guess I'll be okay. I may start throwing a raging fit or something at any moment, but in the long run maybe this is for the best. I guess I'm mostly worried that my two older kids probably won't want anything to do with me anymore...at least for a while. I'm going to make sure I see my little one as often as possible.

 

At least I can prove to my wife that I'm not just going to become some reprobate, dead-beat dad.

[GraphicsGuy]

Bleh. I gotta tell you people, this fucking sucks. I'm moved out, I have no where to go. I have no friends (especially since the only friends I have are Christians) and most of my family members are in other cities (the only one here is my hypochondriac aunt).

 

I'm between paychecks so I can't afford to rent a place right now...this is stupid. Thankfully my office is large.

 

I'm lonely, bored, full of heartache, my older kids don't want to see me, my little one doesn't understand why I'm not coming home and I don't know how to explain it to her.

 

I'm trying to find some friends to go out with right now, trying to get to know some co-workers more, but it's difficult. I can't sleep (I was up 40 hours straight first day/night out of the house), I can only eat small amounts at a time. I know I'll get through it eventually, but everything really sucks right now.