Life, The Universe, And Everything

[dano]

Over time, adaptation leads to evolution. This is not a leap of faith! A leap of faith is to say that humans where placed on this earth by some mythical sky daddy! (Insert FSM as creator of all!)

 

So Buddy, time you told us exactly what you are! You say that you are an ex-christian, but carry the ID philosophy. I have yet to meet someone who has faith in intelligent design and is not a christian! Who believes in angels, but is not a christian. I know that Muslims believe in angels, are you muslim?

 

Please let us know where you are coming from!? I for one am confused!

 

Freeman,

 

Dan to Buddy:

You say you are a true Christian. Do you believe that God had a son with Mary the virgin?

 

Buddys answer:

"I haven't claimed to be a true Christian, I hope. I am a believer, old and scarred; just plain Christian will do."

 

Dan, Agnostic

[alanh]

Antlerman

 

That's a great point. I think English tends to promote binary, black-and-white thinking through words such as either, neither, both, and, win, lose, good and evil, and through expressions like flip a coin, about face, on the other hand, and so on. That sort of dualism suits theology quite well. I'm not saying its always bad, for example our legal system is based on the duality of prosecution and defense. But it is also a severe limitation; there are some dualistic arguments where both sides are correct, but its difficult for most people to see that because they are conditioned to think that one side has to be the winner and the other the loser.

[freeman]

... in this case, did you even read your own quote? Listen, your quote says, there are currently animals with a light sensitive spot.

 

Are we destined to repeat what other people say, or may we actually think for ourselves?

 

 

 

Buddy, are you not just repeating what other people say about life being to complex to have evolved? The "mutations in DNA takes to long to cause evolution and takes longer than the earth has even been in existence" is an old, bad math argument! You sound like the answersingenis freaks! You are parroting their argument!

 

I should have left the gill slits out. It is a term not an actual gill and no one in biology has ever said that it was a gill. I should have at least put it in quotes. I'll give you that one. But you should be honest with your self, and us, about your true motivations with this argument. You rather not say that science has come a long way and explained alot of "mysteries" but still has a long way to go to explain the remaining mysteries. You rather say, "god did it" and you use the creationist "bad math" to try and prove it!

 

Are you actually thinking for yourself?

[freeman]

Dano,

Buddy, on the first page, said,

 

On one side, we have an ex-c supporting random mutation/variation and on the other we have an ex-c supporting absolute determinism and the absence of any randomness.

Buddy

 

Now he is a christian again?

[Grandpa Harley]

Buddy,

What is the purpose for human embros to have gill slits and a 3 chambered heart?

Why would your sky daddy do this?

Inquiring minds which to know!

 

Freeman,

You might revisit the gill slit issue; it was debunked some time ago and continues to embarrass the proponents thereof. First proposed more than a hundred years ago, it's based on simple physical similarities; the idea fell apart with the emergence of modern embryology, maybe several decades ago. It still finds its' way into secondary and undergraduate textbooks but evaporates upon any inquiry. Although the theory proved to be nonsensical, it had a powerful impact on social issues. For awhile, the scientists offered us an educational philosophy based on the theoretical assumption that children would pass through the various evolutionary stages during their years of development. I guess that included the embryonic/fishy stage, the newborn/amphibian stage, the toddler/monkey stage, etc. Nonsense, of course, and only minimally harmful.

 

There have been attempts to rescue the concepts, but alas, the tissue just isn't gill.

 

Inquiring minds should know better.

 

Buddy

 

And the the Pot called to the Kettle, "Yo! Ma Nigga!'

[Grandpa Harley]

The Moron still hasn't said what his 'Egg' simile had to do with anything... Thus, he's a high functioning moron, but just another loud mouth know nothing who thinks he has answers we've not already looked at...

[BuddyFerris]

Dano,

Buddy, on the first page, said,

 

"On one side, we have an ex-c supporting random mutation/variation and on the other we have an ex-c supporting absolute determinism and the absence of any randomness."

Now he is a christian again?

Freeman,

Thanks for keeping things clear. The two ex-c's referred to were each offering me their essential philosophy. One is certain there is no random anything, the other is certain that randomness is an adequate cause for everything. My reference to the two of them was obviously unclear. My apologies.

 

Buddy

[dano]

Freeman.

 

Dan to Buddy:

"You say you are a true Christian. Do you believe that God had a son with Mary the virgin?"

 

Buddys answer:

"I haven't claimed to be a true Christian, I hope. I am a believer, old and scarred; just plain Christian will do."

 

 

And from Buddys post above^^^^^^^^^

 

"We're both Christians, although she has a bit of a different take on things theologically."

Dan ,Agnostic

[Grandpa Harley]

and ref the gills... it's one of those things that most creationist cite the one or two articles that claim phanangeal pouches are mistakenThere are actual cacined vestigial structures in the skull that, based on blood supply to the area in the adult animal, are very, very similar to bony fish gill structures... effectively the jury is out in the wider scientific community. There are numerous vestigal features in mammals that are commonly seen in other phyla - the 'reptillian' structure brain, some oviparious mammals, and, of course, the whole marsupial mammal trench that effectively lay shell less eggs and the embryo has to crawl the pouch...

 

and I still can't see what the Moron is saying on the eyes, other than he can't understand the articles he posts...

[freeman]

Buddy,

The more I think about it, you are getting your data from answersingenis! Please inform us of your sources!

Fucking smack me on the head! (Light goes on!!!) Those two angels you saw, delivered an ID message. You are just like John Smith.

 

Says she talks to angels.

They call her out by her name.

Oh yeah, she talks to angels.

Says they call her out by her name.

-Black Crowes

[Ouroboros]

and I still can't see what the Moron is saying on the eyes, other than he can't understand the articles he posts...

Yeah, I couldn't really wrap my head around exactly what his angle was. What was in the quote that he didn't agree with? He quoted a source that said there are animals with a certain feature, then he mocked the statements in a way that hinted that he didn't believe animals had this feature... Very odd.

[BuddyFerris]

Buddy,

I found a forum that is discussing the bad math of creationsism. Click here.

Sample line, "When the environment suddenly changes in a way that is hostile, the mutation rate of bacteria increases beyond what would normally be healthy; this gives them to ability to "find" solutions to the environmental change that put them into danger."

This throws your statistical data out the window!

Here is an excellent article, from PBS.org, on the evolution of the eye from lightsesitive cells is a few thousand years. Quote, "only 364,000 years would have been needed for a camera-like eye to evolve from a light-sensitive patch."

There are thousands of sites, articles and books to debunk your mathamatical calculations, if you are just willing to open your eyes and especially open your mind.

 

Dear Freeman,

While I recognize that there are sites and published works both for and against classic evolutionary models, I haven't seen one on either side that didn't seem to overreach the supporting evidence. Behe's challenge has been addressed by both reputable scholars and lesser minds with mixed results, all inadequate from my point of view. Unfortunately, Behe's premises were equally overreaching and under-supported. I'm left with unanswered questions, tainted by screwed up arguments on both sides. Thanks for pushing my button on the issue though; it lead to several welll-developed articles of which I was unaware. (The PBS article was underwhelming, to say the least, but others added to my understanding.)

 

As I've said before, the conclusion of this issue is of little consequence to either of us. Should the tide of science sweep away your position or mine in the next decade, we would be unaffected. My life and yours are reflections of our choices more than our grasp of science or lack thereof. Right?

 

Buddy

 

P.S. The 'true' Christian comment referred to historical events whose participants claimed 'true' Christianity in an exclusive sense, being in the church claiming to be a Christian and being deceived, that sort of thing. I'm not sure that 'exclusive' claim can be supported; if you're right, you're in trouble due to pride and arrogance; if you're wrong, well dang, what a waste of time.

[BuddyFerris]

Buddy,

The more I think about it, you are getting your data from answersingenis! Please inform us of your sources!

...smack me on the head! (Light goes on!!!) Those two angels you saw, delivered an ID message. You are just like John Smith.

 

Dear Freeman,

In absolute honesty, I haven't seen the site you mention, although I did see it mentioned disparagingly in some of the links to which you (and others) sent me.

 

Neither angel spoke to me. Separated by several years, the events are unrelated. ID and the theory of evolution weren't on my mind at the time.

 

Buddy

[BuddyFerris]

Freeman.

Buddy...

"I haven't claimed to be a true Christian, I hope. I am a believer, old and scarred; just plain Christian will do."

And from Buddys post above^^^^^^^^^

"We're both Christians, although she has a bit of a different take on things theologically."

 

 

Dear Dano,

Are you quoting me for consistency checking, or for humor? I always (well, usually, ok maybe just sometimes) enjoy your comments; feel free to offer an opinion. You can at least agree with HanS; he thinks I'm a moron because he missed the egg joke.

Buddy

... just plain Christian will do.

[freeman]

Okay Buddy,

Sarcasim, repeat after me sarcasim!

 

Seriously, everyone here would love to know where you obtained your data!

One simple question at a time. What are your sources! We're listening!

[Grandpa Harley]

and I still can't see what the Moron is saying on the eyes, other than he can't understand the articles he posts...

Yeah, I couldn't really wrap my head around exactly what his angle was. What was in the quote that he didn't agree with? He quoted a source that said there are animals with a certain feature, then he mocked the statements in a way that hinted that he didn't believe animals had this feature... Very odd.

 

If one actually slices through the pedantic and slightly baroque language, the Moron doesn't say much

 

More or less a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.

 

I smell clergy... it's the sweet smell of incense, young girls and corruption...

[freeman]

Buddy,

 

Was that mission work you were doing in Africa?

If it was, do you withhold your aid unless they convert?

 

Grandpa Harley, "I smell clergy... it's the sweet smell of incense, young girls and corruption..."

 

LMAO

[freeman]

Should have been "I smell clergy... it's the sweet smell of incense, young boys and corruption..."

[BuddyFerris]

Okay Buddy,

Sarcasim, repeat after me sarcasim!

 

Seriously, everyone here would love to know where you obtained your data!

One simple question at a time. What are your sources! We're listening!

Sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, OK, I can see that. Still needs a tongue-in-cheek emoticon.

 

Sources? You're kidding. You're not? OK, which data point(s) looks suspicious? I'll dig 'em out.

Buddy

 

See Africa Revisited for photos from last month's trip. Mostly business, a little socializing; engineering assistance to the country as it tries to get ready for the oil industry. My team was there installing coastal surveillance instruments for the National Coast Guard.

 

Hark, an insult amiss, though fired expectantly, now returns to land squarely in Long John's septic tank.

 

Oh, right. Sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm....

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm sort of Church of England... they may be gay bashing pedos but they're butch, rugby playing, beer swilling, straight as a die types... none of this Continental boy fiddling!

[Ouroboros]

Dear Dano,

Are you quoting me for consistency checking, or for humor? I always (well, usually, ok maybe just sometimes) enjoy your comments; feel free to offer an opinion. You can at least agree with HanS; he thinks I'm a moron because he missed the egg joke.

Eeeeeh...? No, I don't.

 

I didn't even bother to read your egg joke - so I'm not sure what egg joke you're talking about - and I don't think you're a moron - at least not until now. You probably mixed me up with Gramps...

 

But after this post from you, I think I maybe do believe you're a moron... Or maybe you wrote faster than you thought, and didn't check back to establish the facts?

[BuddyFerris]

Eeeeeh...? No, I don't.

 

Aarrgh! Senility strikes again. Confused HanS and Harley, obviously. Mea Culpa.

Buddy

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm taller and far prettier than Han...

 

And I didn't miss the egg joke, it was a dumb non-sequitur. If it was even tangentially related to the environmental stress comment, then it would, perhaps, have been amusing. However, since it bore no relevance to the post you quoted it wasn't humour, and could only be construed as obfuscation of the point I made. Thus, my opinion you're a muppet. I'm waiting to be disabused of this, but at the moment, you're either not trying or failing miserably... upshot is the same. I still think you're a moron....

[Ouroboros]

Aarrgh! Senility strikes again. Confused HanS and Harley, obviously. Mea Culpa.

Buddy

Apology accepted.

 

I'm taller and far prettier than Han...

Probably very true, eventhough they say I look like an older version of Leonardo De Caprio when I let my hair grow long and I comb it back...

[HuaiDan]

I can't really understand your posts either, Buddy. When I read them, I get this tell-tale twitchy feeling in my frontal lobes that reliably tells me it's either bullshit or delusion.

 

Just a piece of advice, s you understand where we're coming from. Most of us here who have a background or interest in natural science know it's intellectually honest and prudent to gather cold, unbiased data and form a conclusion based on that data.

What creationism, ID, or whatever you want to call it does is to take a conclusion based on the oral tales of primitive nomads, and desperately manipulate data to support that supposedly inerrant conclusion. That's intellectually dishonest, and a folly that we should have long outgrown, living in the 21st century.

 

Personally, I think theories that compete with Darwinism are not only useful but necessary, as they help us to re-evaluate our data and conclusions and prevent inaccurate conclusions from becoming fossilized dogma. However, it is necessary that these competing theories are conclusions that come from accurate, verifiable data. The conclusions need to be modified based on the data, not the other way around.

 

 

Thought experiment. Take creationism and the TOE and throw them out the window. Just forget they ever existed. Now examine the data: biological similarities and diversity, fossils, genetics, geological strata, radiological dating, astrophysics, etc. Now remember there's no invisible sky daddy or evil debil trying to deceive you; you threw them out the window, remember? Taking all these into account, try to form your own theory about how life on planet earth, in its current condition, came to be.