Should the U.S. act to stop Genocide?

[SOIL]

... I just have a hard time associating with Job, I feel sorry for his wife and kids that had to be killed to prove to Satan that Job were this super dude.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HanSolo,

 

Please allow me to be just a tad bit nit-picky here, Actually Job's wife was not killed, and my personal opinion is that Satan is not the only (or even the most important?) one who was being proven something. Also, the thing which was proved - is: not that Job is the super dude, rather God is. God is proven to be glorious by the outcome of the wager - because not every person (who God allows to live on this planet) has stopped recognizing (and being thankful for) the fact that we have been given even our very life.

 

One who is loved is shown to be glorious by the steadfastness of the faith and trust their lover bestows on them. And this glory rises, as the difficulty increases for the lover to maintain that faith and trust.

 

Job was willing to receive from God both good and bad (i.e. judging from his - less than almighty - perspective). Through it all, one human (at least) has kept trusting that God is worthy of glory, and one day God will do what is needed so that he (or she: this trusting person) can "see God"* .

 

 

-Dennis

 

*yet again, as our first (genesis) parents did

[SOIL]

...

The ability to make a planet does not necessarily grant the right to cause the suffering of others.  ...

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

The way I see things, the right to cause the suffering of Job was granted to Satan when Adam (his representative) disobeyed God (i.e. decided his way was the best).

 

God has provided two ways for us folks to keep him from "granting that right" to Satan) : 1) Don't disobey him. 2) Trust Jesus didn't disobey him - and accept him as our new representative.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Cerise,

 

The way I see things, the right to cause the suffering of Job was granted to Satan when Adam (his representative) disobeyed God (i.e. decided his way was the best).

 

God has provided two ways for us folks to keep him from "granting that right" to Satan) :  1) Don't disobey him. 2) Trust Jesus didn't disobey him - and accept him as our new representative.

 

-Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So which is it Dennis? The sins of the father shall be vested upon the son? Or the sins of the father shall not be vested upon the son?

 

You try to have it both ways. That isn't going to happen.

 

Do you have the right to punish your grandson because your son hurt you? Do you have the right to hurt your grandson, take away his home, take away his friends and family, take away his security? Do you have the right to do this because once upon a time, your son did something you didn't like? And does it make what you're doing right if your poor grandson still believes you hung the moon and only blames his dad for his punishment?

 

Or does that make it all the more wrong.

 

If I ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil I HAVE become like God in knowing good and evil. Your holy book states this outright.

 

If it would be evil for me to do this thing to my children's children, then, in knowing good and evil by the fruit I have taken, I know it would be evil for a God to do the same.

 

Can you refute that?

[Cerise]

God is proven to be glorious by the outcome of the wager - because not every person (who God allows to live on this planet) has stopped recognizing (and being thankful for) the fact that we have been given even our very life.

 

This tells me two things.

 

1) God is not proven to be glorious. He is proven to be a tyrant.

 

2) God only had power as long as there are believers who give him power (via claiming his tyranny is actually glorious)

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo,

 

Please allow me to be just a tad bit nit-picky here,  Actually Job's wife was not killed, and my personal opinion is that Satan is not the only (or even the most important?) one who was being proven something.  Also, the thing which was proved - is: not that Job is the super dude, rather God is. God is proven to be glorious by the outcome of the wager - because not every person (who God allows to live on this planet) has stopped recognizing (and being thankful for) the fact that we have been given even our very life.

Keep on nit-picking, I don't mind!

 

Yes, you're right there was no reference to his wife.

It was a while ago I read Job. So I checked.

 

What I see as a problem with Job is that innocent people are killed to prove something to Job. And actually God was tempted by Satan to prove this. God was challenged about if Job was righteous or not, and Jesus said that you shouldn't tempt God. Satan did and God let it happen.

 

Is Job a true story or only a story to tell religious concept? If it never happened, it's easier to accept, but if it did happen, God has not proven his own righteousness but only his power to let people be tested, even when they've done nothing wrong. The only sin Job could have been condemned for is that he had pride in his righteousness.

 

One who is loved is shown to be glorious by the steadfastness of the faith and trust their lover bestows on them.  And this glory rises, as the difficulty increases for the lover to maintain that faith and trust.

 

Job was willing to receive from God both good and bad (i.e. judging from his - less than almighty - perspective). Through it all, one human (at least) has kept trusting that God is worthy of glory, and one day God will do what is needed so that he (or she:  this trusting person) can "see God"* .

-Dennis

 

*yet again, as our first (genesis) parents did

I think here’s the point that doesn’t add up with the image we’re supposed to have of God. How can we receive good and bad from a God that is good? How can God act badly if he’s omni-benevolent? The story of Job doesn’t jive with Jesus illustration of God.

 

It also gives the false pretence that God blesses people for bending for his unreasonable punishments and destructions. Only if God can crush us, we will deserve to be blessed. Maybe it’s the image of that you have to be born again; destroyed from your old to become new. But in the current covenant that is a spiritual experience and not a physical. So was the story of Job a true story or just a tale?

 

If it’s true God have to destroy your wealth to build you up, why doesn’t he do it with everyone, but supposedly only people that give him his praise? Isn’t trust and faith in God the salvation from such destruction?

[SOIL]

So which is it Dennis?  The sins of the father shall be vested upon the son?  Or the sins of the father shall not be vested upon the son?

 

You try to have it both ways.  That isn't going to happen.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

I think the propensity to sin is passed from generation to generation.

 

When the son sins, he is guilty for his own sin - because if he never sinned, he would not be guilty. However, speaking practically here, (rather than talking theory, which has never actually happened), all of us who live long enough will (al)most certainly both sin and die.

 

I think when God stated "you shall surely die" (as the consequence of disobedience to the command about not eating that fruit), he was talking about all the human race - not only Adam and Eve - but also their offspring. I think the "death" God spoke of is not only a gradual physical one, but also a spiritual one ('spiritual death' that is - unless- some qualified person bears that spiritual death in place of the guilty sinner - who agrees to, and appreciates - the exchange).

 

(IMO) The sins of the father are not vested on those "sons" who appreciate the fact that our sins have been vested on our heavenly father's son.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

...

Do you have the right to punish your grandson because your son hurt you?  Do you have the right to hurt your grandson, take away his home, take away his friends and family, take away his security?  Do you have the right to do this because once upon a time, your son did something you didn't like?  And does it make what you're doing right if your poor grandson still believes you hung the moon and only blames his dad for his punishment?

 

Or does that make it all the more wrong.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

I think God decided to punish his own son - so he (while still being just) would not need to punish other people's sons - when we are genuinely sorry and repentant about our sinfulness, and when we accept what I think has been called "the great exchange".

 

The way I look at things, it's not so much that God is punishing grandsons because their dads hurt him. The fathers hurt themselves - and they have set an example for their "sons" (the've passed on the propensity) toward self destructive behavior. Self destructive behavior is the cause which leads to the effect: "punishment" as you call it.

 

God is not happy to see the self-destrutive cycle go on, and on (and on ... etc...). So he provided a remedy. The same free will which our ancestors used to choose disobediance has also been passed on to us. God still wants us to be able to have a choice in the matter.

 

Now, because God has graciously providing the remedy - we can choose again - but this time we can choose to simply accept and appreciate God's remedy - if we do so, then God has promised to help us begin choosing obedience (like our first ancestors did for awhile), and as we are increasingly obedient, we can expect to see a reduction in the amount of "hurt" we cause both our earthly and our heavenly fathers (not to mention the hurt we cause ourselves).

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Cerise,

 

I think God decided to punish his own son - so he (while still being just) would not need to punish other people's sons - when we are genuinely sorry and repentant about our sinfulness, and when we accept what I think has been called "the great exchange".

 

I've already talked to you about justice and mercy. I don't think we need to get into it again, save to say I don't agree with you. And you know why.

 

The way I look at things, it's not so much that God is punishing grandsons because their dads hurt him.  The fathers hurt themselves - and they have set an example for their "sons" (the've passed on the propensity) toward self destructive behavior. Self destructive behavior is the cause which leads to the effect:  "punishment" as you call it.

 

So...Job somehow brought his suffering on himself? That's what all his friends were saying, but that isn't what God said, isn't that correct?

 

God is not happy to see the self-destrutive cycle go on, and on (and on ...  etc...). So he provided a remedy.  The same free will which our ancestors used to choose disobediance has also been passed on to us. God still wants us to be able to have a choice in the matter.

 

We've also already talked about so called "free-will" and you know why I do not agree with you there either.

 

Now, because God has graciously providing the remedy

 

How gracious of him to provide us with the solution to repair us from the flaw he made us with.

 

- we can choose again - but this time we can choose to simply accept and appreciate God's remedy - if we do so, then God has promised to help us begin choosing obedience (like our first ancestors did for awhile), and as we are increasingly obedient, we can expect to see a reduction in the amount of "hurt" we cause both our earthly and our heavenly fathers (not to mention the hurt we cause ourselves).

 

Maybe. And then again, maybe not. I've seen first hand what the children of god can do when they say they have Jesus in their hearts. Sometimes it is not pretty.

[chefranden]

...God is proven to be glorious by the outcome of the wager - because not every person (who God allows to live on this planet) has stopped recognizing (and being thankful for) the fact that we have been given even our very life.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One who is loved is shown to be glorious by the steadfastness of the faith and trust their lover bestows on them.  And this glory rises, as the difficulty increases for the lover to maintain that faith and trust.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job was willing to receive from God both good and bad (i.e. judging from his - less than almighty - perspective). Through it all, one human (at least) has kept trusting that God is worthy of glory, and one day God will do what is needed so that he (or she:  this trusting person) can "see God"* .

-Dennis

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*yet again, as our first (genesis) parents did

Why is it that some poor patch of humans always has to suffer in order for God to be Glorified? Why couldn't God be glorified by being nice? Could it be because glory is a military idea? Look at the "Glory" of the US military busting Sadam's straw army. It kind of like the Yankees playing ball with the Minong Evergreens and then having a tickertape parade because they won! Glory for taking candy from a baby. I think I'm just about ready to be impressed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So then a woman and her children being beaten by the husband should just shut up and bear it, so as to glorify her tormentor. "Sure he is an asshole, but we love him anyway." With lovers like this who the hell needs haters? Now what does the bible say about love?

1 Corinthians 13:4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Oh, look at that -- love always protects -- isn't that nice. God's unconditional love demands that we take it like a man! Hey, that sounds military too. "Your country loves you sucka, now die in place." "Sure, you betcha Sarge!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job was a boob.

 

Question: If god gave me life where was I when he gave it? I just don't remember that. I'm mean I must of pre-existed or something. After all how do you give nobody something?

[Vixentrox]

Back to the original topic, should the US stop genocide? Even though WW2 wasn't fought becuase of the concentration camps, would you not agree that those camps alone were worth going to war for? How many innocent dead does it take for you to honestly say that you would pick up the gun and fight to save them? One million? Ten Million? 100 million? Can you watch Schindler's List for example and not want to feel like you should try to save the little girl wearing pink? Or is not worth your time to protect? Multiply it by millions.

 

Can you honestly say that if for example Canada started killing all the people in Quebec becuase they speak French first...would you just say, "Not my problem"? At some point a decent person would have to say enough is enough. Some things ARE worth fighting for even if it is not in your own country.

[SOIL]

Since most of this whole thread has apparently moved a bit "off topic" I don't feel too guilty offering this post (which is admittedly off the off-topic rabbit-trail we have been chasing).

 

Randen,

 

I don't recall having read (in an original post?) the quote from Pitchu (below), you are currently using in your signature line:

 

"I find I can't sustain fury unless I sleep 10 hours a night. So I try to alternate it with depression."

 

(Pithu, I also encourage your responses to my questions below),

 

1) Are "fury" and "depression" common with exchristians?

 

2) If so, why should a loving father (like I desire to be) encourage my children to become one?

 

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Back to the original topic, should the US stop genocide?  Even though WW2 wasn't fought becuase of the concentration camps, would you not agree that those camps alone were worth going to war for?  How many innocent dead does it take for you to honestly say that you would pick up the gun and fight to save them?  One million?  Ten Million?  100 million?  Can you watch Schindler's List for example and not want to feel like you should try to save the little girl wearing pink? Or is not worth your time to protect?  Multiply it by millions.

 

Can you honestly say that if for example Canada started killing all the people in Quebec becuase they speak French first...would you just say, "Not my problem"?  At some point a decent person would have to say enough is enough.  Some things ARE worth fighting for even if it is not in your own country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YEA Vixentrox!

 

<insert vigorous applause here>

 

I don't think I could express my own thoughts any better, so I won't even try - you have said what I have felt!

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

edited....starting new topic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here is the link to the new topic" Who's more christlike? Biblegod or Humans?

(at least I think this is the one you are referring to, thankful)

 

By the way, thankful, why do you use the word: 'thankful' as your handle?

 

Just curious,

 

-Dennis

[Japedo]

(Pithu, I also encourage your responses to my questions below),

 

1) Are "fury" and "depression" common with exchristians?

 

2) If so, why should a loving father (like I desire to be) encourage my children to become one?

-Dennis

 

 

I know I'm not Pitchu, however I'd like to answer the two questions.

 

1) I believe especially in Exchristains. Christianity has screwed a lot of people up emotionally. Never being worthy enough, always feeling guilt. I think once you break from the Cult logically there is still an emotional bondage that you have to work thru. Some it takes years or a life time.

 

One can not just Unlearn fear that you've been conditioned to believe is a form of love.

 

 

2) Why would a father scare a child with scary boogie-men stories of Hell and torment as a way to get them to 'love' a god or as a proof that a god loves them? God only loves conditionaly, if you're not up to his standards you'll fry. Why would a father choose to put some coded scriptures over the Childs individuality? Why is the bible way of love thru torment, pain, rejection, feeling unworthy, et al? These are not virtues of Love yet Christians use these Feelings to gain more power over people. Which ironically enough, leads us back to question number one.

[SOIL]

...

...One can not just Unlearn fear that you've been conditioned to believe is a form of love.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Japedo,

 

I need to wait until after normal working hours - to offer some of my own personal comments - but my mind quickly goes to this passage:

 

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.  There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

(I added the Bold emphasis)

 

(See additional conext here)

 

-Dennis

[Vigile]

Ditto, on all points.  Why do people willingly allow their children to believe in such horrors?

 

Ditto here also. I have maintained for years now that the hell doctrine is a form of unintentional child abuse. I spent so many (Dennis, I can't emphasize many enough) nights in bed crying as a child because I thought I would lose my salvation or because my friends or loved ones would not be in heaven with me. It's not a matter of me having had a misunderstanding of the gospel story, it was a matter of me believing it all too much; all of it.

 

Dennis, I just don't see how you can come to grips with the fact that you would forgive your children for far far more than god would. I know your response, he gave you an out. But not everyone takes that out and you wouldn't send your own kids to hell for the same "mistake," I know you wouldn't and so do you. Not only that, but if you were god you wouldn't demand that someone pay a price just for some silly rule breaking and mere unbelief. You certainly wouldn't ever elevate your demands to such a level for your own kids. Be honest with yourself here.

 

My parents raised me like you are trying to raise your kids and I love my parents; I always have. At the same time, I really wish that they had not instilled in me and exposed me to the fears and self abomination that are present in the christian doctrine. It's not their fault, they were raised in it to and they did for me what they thought was right, but like Japedo said, it has taken me years to overcome the psychological damage and some things I will never get back.

[Reach]

Dennis, I think you might wish to check out this book which I recently read. I highly recommend it. Now that the book is available in paperback, you'll find used copies in hardcover cheaper than the new edition and available here: The Road to Hell, by Michael Maren.

 

The international aid business is corrupt, period. No matter if you are talking about genocide, tribal warfare, drought, famine and starvation or anything else, the aid machine is a self-serving employment agency at best.

 

If we are to involve ourselves in anything, especially on a personal level where we are able to exercise greater control, we ought to educate ourselves as much as possible in advance of making our commitment or risk wasting our time, energy and other resources.

 

There is often a huge disparity between what should be done and what can be done.

 

-Reach

[Vigile]

My children are 7 and 10 and they know now why I don't believe and they have fallen in line with me.  Do you think that they'll be okay?  I know you may not have the "right" answer but how do you think your life would be different?  Neither of them are scared about hell because I told them it wasn't real, they aren't even concerned about whether or not I'm right.  They are just happy children.

 

 

I may not be the right one to answer, but I'll try. I think at their age they will be fine. I started running into problems when I was moving into adolescence and teen years when hormones and rebellion were running wild. What should have been normal thoughts and actions as a human were all considered by me to be sinful and it played a heavy toll. Kids should be free to question authority (they don't have to be rude about it, but they need the right to think on their own), they should be free to not believe they are sinners going to hell because they have started having sexual desire.

 

Have you ever seen the movie "Human Nature" by Charley Kaufman? If not, I highly recommend it. In the movie there is a man who was raised by wolves and essentially he had only natural desires and behaviors. When a behavioral psychiatrist discovers the nature boy, he takes him into his lab and attempts to "civilize" him. Every time the nature boy has a sexual desire he is treated to shock therapy. Every time the nature boy displays poor manners, he is shocked. In the end it appears that the doctor has won the battle and the young man becomes a perfect gentleman. However, when the doctor releases him from his cage, he runs around with prostitutes and behaves naturally again. Only now he feels guilty about this and the guilt becomes more than he can bear.

 

This is what christianity does to people. It makes them feel guilty about natural desire and behaviors.

[Alice]

SOIL,

 

since this is a thread about genocide ... and since Hell seems to have cropped up ... I found myself imaging an 'end times ... road to hell' kind of a news report. Not unlike those reports we see from famine ridden or wore torn nations .. or situations where large groups of people don't agree with the ruling authority and are badly treated as a result,

 

I just started to imagine a 'live' news report from the hell mouth as thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men, women and children are shepherded into Hell by the powers that be for not being part of the favoured group.

 

That's genocide.

[Mythra]

Yeah, Soil, right. Perfect love casts out fear. If all you give a shit about is yourself. I couldn't do it. Bask in the knowledge that I was going to paradise when I died while my kids and my dad were headed to eternal suffering.

 

I WAS SCARED as a christian.

 

I tried to talk to my dad about God. He would just say, if God is real, and if he made me, then he made my brain. He would have expected me to use it. And my brain tells me that the bible is nonsense. End of conversation.

 

I couldn't rejoice and praise god while believing good people (and my dad is a very good person - never hurt a soul in his entire life) were going to scream in eternal torment for eternity.

 

My dad is right. Nonsense.

[Alice]

I never really spent much time thinking about hell when I was a christian. It plays a much lesser role in churches in the UK so it was easy to avoid thinking about it, so I haven't worried about 'fear of hell' being instilled in my children.

 

If I'd ever imagined the hell doctrine into a modern context - as happened just now when I was thinking about genocide, I guess it would have caused me all kinds of problems - but because there is such an emphasis on hell being metaphorical ... well I guess one doesn't lose much sleep over a metaphor.

 

In terms of your children Thankful, I would say that given their young age and the fact that they have 'fallen in line' with you, they will be OK - in fact in many ways they will less likely to 'join up' - because they have seen you both sides of the fence.

 

Getting something wrong - and being honest about it with our kids, so that they learn it's OK to get something wrong is a great lesson.

 

With my kids we tend to still emphasise the need to 'search for truth and 'spiritual values' - and that our time in the church was part of that journey (just turned out it wasn't the destination!) my eldest son has referred to our time in a charismatic fundamentalist church as 'the detour' - I hesitate in some ways to say this because I have no desire to minimise the pain and suffering of many for whom their time in the church was destructive and soul destroying ...

 

but as you've got out while they are still pretty little - I'd be hopeful that they will remember it as the 'detour' as well.

[Guest aexapo]

I don't know if I should/would draw the same conclusion as to WHY? the U.S. would oppose such a force - but I can understand why you do - maybe I will understand even better if you can supply some links to sources showing how the U.S. has been opposing such U.N. forces.

 

I don't have any sources, but it is common knowledge that the US does not support military-style causes that aren't part of their foreign policy plan. With the exception of our "foreign policy," we don't generally get involved in Civil Wars, either -- as was Rwanda.

 

Joining a UN force as a simple member organization would require US troops to submit to UN commanders, an idea that neither our government, nor the US public, has ever responded to in a positive manner.

 

We have -- in the past -- engaged in UN actions when it was our idea, and when we led other forces under our command as a coalition of allies . . . but not as a simple member of a UN force.

 

The one exception was under Clinton with the Kosovo ordeal, but they worked it out somehow where although it was technically a UN action, it was led NATO, which was at the time headed by U.S. General Wesley Clark. But there was still a backlash among conspiratorial conservatives that "our boys were takin' orders from the UN."

[Guest aexapo]

Boy, sorry for going so far off topic.  As far as the US stopping Genocide, I can help by giving to organizations and such but dang, we need someone protecting this country.  We cannot afford to police the world, we're short on protection as it is already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with your sentiment, but have recently (over the past few years) stopped agreeing with that common sentiment. We are not playing policeman to the world -- all police actions enacted by our country were because of our foreign policy, which besides self-protection (many cold-war actions), were actions meant to enforce or impose our imperial-style dominance over the rest of the world (especially those rogue nations that like to flip us off . . . haven't they figured out who the "king" is?). Regardless of how ill-thought-out or misguided any of them were, all of these actions were somehow part of "our" policy -- not because we're the unpaid cop of the block.

 

If we want it to stop -- we have to stop electing military blowhards, and start electing people who want to enable the UN to really be the peacekeeper, and allow us to settle back as simply a member of the international community . . . not the bully (which is the reality of how the rest of the world perceives us).

[Mythra]

Soil - With all due respect, you're full of shit.

 

The bible is all about fear. If you're not fearing God, then you need to fear Satan. The devil prowls about like a roaring lion, just looking for the next christian to devour. What the hell is that verse about if it isn't about fear?

 

If you are like most christians, you have to guard your mind, guard your heart, be careful that you don't give Satan a foothold.

 

As in the book "Pilgrims Progress" by Bunyon - if you start doubting, then the big Ogre will come and beat you up and throw you in prison and work you over real good. You'll be lucky if you get out alive.

 

It appears that you, too, pick and choose your way around this forum. I've never seen you put in your two cents on a single issue that might open yourself up to doubt or thoughtful critisizm of christianity. I would hazard a guess that you are afraid too.

[Ouroboros]

(Pithu, I also encourage your responses to my questions below),

 

1) Are "fury" and "depression" common with exchristians?

 

2) If so, why should a loving father (like I desire to be) encourage my children to become one?

-Dennis

 

The questions were not to me, but I'll answer anyway...

 

1) I hope not, it's not in my case at least. I'm happier, more content and have complete peace today. My life has more focus than ever before.

 

2) Well, since my answer in 1), my children are very harmonious and full of life, they're not judgmental or prejudice. We as a family has done something that was pretty much guarranteed to end in divorce and depression, and it didn't. And we had to do it without God, because he was absent when we asked for his support. A lot of discussions and our own built in will to stay together held this family together. My kids respect other people and have high morals, and they do it without religion.