Pledge Of Allegiance

[Ro-bear]

Here's a little background on how we got stuck with this miserable piece of American injustice.

 

Precisely. The offending phrase is just another knee-jerk feel-good pseudo-patriotic piece of legislative shit foisted upon a dimwitted public by their cynical and/or dimwitted representatives. Like the Patriot Act. All we need is a perceived threat, and off we go on a stupidity tear just so it seems like we are doing something. No time to think, you egghead elitists! Let's act!

 

Every time I think about it I want to drink about it. Hey, I'm halfway done writing my new country song!

[ShackledNoMore]

I'm not a parent and I don't know what it will do to a child if he/she is singled out by making an issue of this.

 

That said, I respectfully disagree.

 

The pledge is patriotic indoctrination that takes advantage of children at their most trusting stage in life. When you are older and you feel goosebumps as the anthem plays and you feel the need to send your sons off to war, when you feel that your counry is somehow the best country amongst all other countries, it all started with early age indoctrination.

 

It is certainly not meaningless.

That's why it's tough, Vigile.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

 

Also, watching kids this age, I think it would be devastating singling out the child, especially if it was instigated by the teacher/authority and all the kids jumped on the bandwagon.

 

Indoctrination it is, plain and simple, but it's also true that kids (and adults) are bombarded with indoctrination. I'll admire those who take a stand on this and not fault those who don't, but either way I advocate questioning and testing whatever they hear and learning to use that marvelous gray matter between their ears.

[woodsmoke]

I see, thanks. Wouldn't such a law (Texas' requiring students to recite the Pledge) have been challenged by now?

 

One would think so. You have Jehovah's Witnesses in Texas, don't you? I'm told by a JW friend of mine that they don't do the Pledge.

 

Maybe you should re-read your law. In my state, which is easily as backward as yours, the law states that the Pledge must be recited in any classroom with an American flag in it (our local Republicans generously saw to it that flags were available to all). However, no child may be compelled to stand or recite the pledge. Most of the younger kids do so anyway, either because they don't want to stick out like a sore thumb or because their teacher tells them to do so. In the high school, a fair number just sit while the Pledge is piped into every room. An ROTC cadet recites over the PA (My job includes all of the morning announcements, but I declined my principal's offer to recite the pledge daily, even volunteering that I thought the law was a stupid one).

 

Yes, there are some LDS churches to be seen here. I wouldn't know any numbers, though; they don't seem to be noticeably overt about it.

 

I think you're confused; JWs and LDS (Mormons) are two different sects. I don't imagine most Mormons would raise much of a fuss over the pledge as nationalistic indoctrination goes hand-in-hand with their cult brainwashing.

[Jack]

I see, thanks. Wouldn't such a law (Texas' requiring students to recite the Pledge) have been challenged by now?

 

One would think so. You have Jehovah's Witnesses in Texas, don't you? I'm told by a JW friend of mine that they don't do the Pledge.

 

Maybe you should re-read your law. In my state, which is easily as backward as yours, the law states that the Pledge must be recited in any classroom with an American flag in it (our local Republicans generously saw to it that flags were available to all). However, no child may be compelled to stand or recite the pledge. Most of the younger kids do so anyway, either because they don't want to stick out like a sore thumb or because their teacher tells them to do so. In the high school, a fair number just sit while the Pledge is piped into every room. An ROTC cadet recites over the PA (My job includes all of the morning announcements, but I declined my principal's offer to recite the pledge daily, even volunteering that I thought the law was a stupid one).

 

Yes, there are some LDS churches to be seen here. I wouldn't know any numbers, though; they don't seem to be noticeably overt about it.

 

I think you're confused; JWs and LDS (Mormons) are two different sects. I don't imagine most Mormons would raise much of a fuss over the pledge as nationalistic indoctrination goes hand-in-hand with their cult brainwashing.

 

Oh, I did mix them, up, didn't I? Mormons there are, but I don't know about JWs. Most of the town was Southern Baptist, anyway.

[Jella]

Here's a little background on how we got stuck with this miserable piece of American injustice.

 

Precisely. The offending phrase is just another knee-jerk feel-good pseudo-patriotic piece of legislative shit foisted upon a dimwitted public by their cynical and/or dimwitted representatives. Like the Patriot Act. All we need is a perceived threat, and off we go on a stupidity tear just so it seems like we are doing something. No time to think, you egghead elitists! Let's act!

 

Every time I think about it I want to drink about it. Hey, I'm halfway done writing my new country song!

 

Exactly

 

I don't like it there, nor should it ever have been added. If it weren't a powerful way to indoctrinate children, you wouldn't see all the hubbub when someone speaks of removing it. While I believe in picking battles, if someone did pick this one, I'd support them all I could.

[Mling]

There are lots of other reasons to object to the Pledge of Allegiance without mentioning God at all. You might try to find a kindergarten-appropriate way to explain that you want her to love and support all people, not just one country, or that you don't think she should be swearing any vows at all--especially when she doesn't know what they mean.

 

If that's true, that is.

[pitchu]

Welcome to Ex-C, Mling.

[Mankey]

There are lots of other reasons to object to the Pledge of Allegiance without mentioning God at all. You might try to find a kindergarten-appropriate way to explain that you want her to love and support all people, not just one country, or that you don't think she should be swearing any vows at all--especially when she doesn't know what they mean.

If that's true, that is.

Careful.....the neocons might make you disappear......those are dangerous ideas you are bringing up.

 

hehe.

[HuaiDan]

There are lots of other reasons to object to the Pledge of Allegiance without mentioning God at all. You might try to find a kindergarten-appropriate way to explain that you want her to love and support all people, not just one country, or that you don't think she should be swearing any vows at all--especially when she doesn't know what they mean.

 

If that's true, that is.

Excellent point. I thought by law a minor wasn't obligated to make any legally binding oath, and any such oath by law wo7uld be null and void..

[Vigile]

The pledge isn't legally binding.

[.god]

I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance and I always hated it - fortunately reciting the pledge only lasted thru elementary school. I guess I was never one for conforming to the masses even in grade school. The god part used to annoy me greatly because it wasn't something I believed in or identified with since I was raised atheist, so I used to just make up something different every time we said the pledge. ..one nation, under me.. invisible, for liberty and cupcakes for all! .. one nation, underweight, divisible..

 

The thing was when I was in first grade or such and I asked my mom what this "god" thing was, she said it was something that some people believed in, like santa claus, et al.

 

Fortunately, growing up on the west coast, religion wasn't something I had to deal much with. Until second grade when I actually got in trouble for when a girl tattled on me for saying the word "hell"... and as a child I was like, "WTF?!"

Well, that day my mom explained to me why "hell" wasn't a bad word.. a little later she explained to me what "fuck" meant too. I learned a lot in 2nd grade lol

[HuaiDan]

But I keep coming around to that word "pledge", trying to think of the closest synonym possible: oath, commitment, promise, obligation, etc. Seems so serious...and binding. If not by law, then by what? By god? That certainly makes it a prayer. Before the god clause was added, then I guess merely to the flag. And using no uncertain terms, what sentient being or body does the flag represent? Would any treason statutes be invalid if one had never recited the pledge of allegiance? Silly question of course but to drift into even deeper waters and one I'm sure you could answer, where does one's legally binding begin and end outside of the prohibitions of law, and does stating an oath affect that in any way?

 

If, in a court of law, would my perjury be any less perjurous if I had not sworn to tell the truth and only the truth? If not, then doesn't that make it all just ritual? Mass hypnosis, I'm guessing.

[Mling]

But I keep coming around to that word "pledge", trying to think of the closest synonym possible: oath, commitment, promise, obligation, etc. Seems so serious...and binding. If not by law, then by what? By god? That certainly makes it a prayer. Before the god clause was added, then I guess merely to the flag. And using no uncertain terms, what sentient being or body does the flag represent? Would any treason statutes be invalid if one had never recited the pledge of allegiance? Silly question of course but to drift into even deeper waters and one I'm sure you could answer, where does one's legally binding begin and end outside of the prohibitions of law, and does stating an oath affect that in any way?

 

If, in a court of law, would my perjury be any less perjurous if I had not sworn to tell the truth and only the truth? If not, then doesn't that make it all just ritual? Mass hypnosis, I'm guessing.

 

There's another thread bopping around someplace asking what bits of Christianity we still believe. This is one of mine--do not swear at all, but let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. Swearing to tell the truth is only meaningful if you are a dishonest enough person that your word couldn't be trusted otherwise.

 

Or, as my little sister once put it, "I never promised I would do it! I just said I would!"

 

I think people's objections to swearing might be why "or affirm" was added to the "Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth..." spiel.

[Mling]

Welcome to Ex-C, Mling.

 

*wave* Thanks, hi!

[SWIM]

Well, my kindergarten aged daughter just recited the Pledge of Allegiance to me. The version that includes the words added by an Act has been ruled unconstitutional by federal courts in my state. The one that contains the words "under God." She tells me that she "has to say it in the morning" and that it "means she loves America."

 

I have the resources to fight it, but I'd rather not have my daughter singled out. I don't have an objection to her saying the Pledge, I'd just prefer it be the version that doesn't exclude her based on her religious beliefs. I'd also not like the administration against me, as this is a good school, and one that is very very convenient for her to attend.

 

I also know that she is likely to deal with this crap all the time so I would rather teach her how to deal with this on a personal level and in a way meaningful to her.

 

Any advice?

 

Edit: So far it's only actually illegal in one district in my state, as far as I know.

 

 

Do they ever have Parent/Teacher day? Do you ever get the opportuity to sit in class at the start of class? Some schools do. Record it, use the memo function on a cell phone or use a dictaphone in your pocket. Even *if* this is not permitted as evidence, you can *still* use it when you contact the ACLU.

 

The ACLU will likely act on it, and they won't even mention your daughter. You may not even be *aware* they acted on it because their first, LEAST expensive blow will be a letter from one of their lawyers warning them that further action could be taken if this does not cease. (provided it is not legal in your area, as you indicate).

 

It's worth a shot and would basically cost you and your daughter nothing at all, and nobody will know you set the hounds on them.

[OldApostate]

Fortunately, growing up on the west coast, religion wasn't something I had to deal much with. Until second grade when I actually got in trouble for when a girl tattled on me for saying the word "hell"... and as a child I was like, "WTF?!"

Well, that day my mom explained to me why "hell" wasn't a bad word.. a little later she explained to me what "fuck" meant too. I learned a lot in 2nd grade lol

 

LOL. My deal with my daughter is that there aren't really "bad" words so much as there are "adult" words and "offensive" words. She's dropped an occasional "shit" and has been told that it's a word that's ok for adults to use, but not children. She gets that as there are a lot of things she can't do as a child, like drive... though she really really wants to do that. By the same token, she said someone was ugly the other day, and I told her that was offensive. "Hell" would fall more into the "offensive" category as in, it offends some people so, to be polite, don't use it around people you don't know are ok with it. I knew my daughter was going to hear some off color stuff from time to time, and this seemed to be the best way to deal with it as I'm not against colorful language in the right place and time. I'm pretty free with the f-bombs myself, though not around my daughter. As she gets older, I won't care much about her language as long as she is able to moderate it in a socially appropriate way.

 

I wanted to thank folks for responding. I've been reading but not posting as I have a cold from hell. I've pretty much decided to approach the issue indirectly, by continuing to reinforce her logical facilities and our lack of god belief.

 

As to some of the legal discussions about the pledge, it is unconstitutional to require a child to recite the pledge. However, the school can have it publicly recited and the child will just have to sit it out. This is not based on the "under God" part, but the pledge itself, and has to do with Jehovah's Witnesses and their desire not to recite the pledge in protest of Hitler's persecution against them in Germany. I recommend "The Courage of Their Convictions," by Peter Irons as a good resource for these kinds of constitutional issues. He alternates chapters of historical context with accounts by the lead petitioners in cases before SCOTUS. In any case, I feel that the child is still impermissably singled out when he or she wishes not to recite the pledge.

 

Recently, the Northern District of California ruled the pledge with the words "under God" to be unconstitutional, so school recitations in that district are unconstitutional. I believe that a District Court in Florida also recently came to the same decision.

[OldApostate]

The ACLU will likely act on it, and they won't even mention your daughter. You may not even be *aware* they acted on it because their first, LEAST expensive blow will be a letter from one of their lawyers warning them that further action could be taken if this does not cease. (provided it is not legal in your area, as you indicate).

 

It's worth a shot and would basically cost you and your daughter nothing at all, and nobody will know you set the hounds on them.

 

Nah, it's legal in my district currently. I think that will change in the near future as the 9th Circuit is likely to rule as it did a few years ago when the newest case gets up there. Unfortunately, the 9th Circuit decision that it was unconstitutional was shot down on a procedural basis by SCOTUS. This time around, I think they're on sound procedural ground, so the law should change soon enough, at least as long as SCOTUS doesn't want to muck with any 9th Cir. decision.

 

I think that SCOTUS was chickenshit the last time around in getting what they wanted without actually dealing with the issue, but I think they'll have to confront it this time around. Unfortunately, SCOTUS hasn't been doing so well basing its decisions on precedent and logic recently, so the timing may be really bad in the long term.

[.god]

"Hell" would fall more into the "offensive" category as in, it offends some people so, to be polite, don't use it around people you don't know are ok with it.

 

I'm curious in what parts of the country people might actually find the word hell offensive? To me it's something quite odd as the term is the diametric opposite of "heaven"

It's like being offended by "evil" (good/evil) or "white" (white/black) or "down" (up/down).

One doesn't really exist w/o the other in traditional myths. I suppose though one could use the term "underworld" but that is usually used to refer to a plane of existence in greek mythology.

 

Anyway, I find it iintriguing that there are people who are offended by the word.. do you think that has to do more with religious programming? Or more with fear or superstition - as in, the fear that vocalizing something will make it happen, etc..

[HuaiDan]

How can there be a heaven, when those therein would have loved ones burning in hell? Doesn't sound to me like a very heavenly state to be in.

[OldApostate]

I'm curious in what parts of the country people might actually find the word hell offensive? To me it's something quite odd as the term is the diametric opposite of "heaven"

It's like being offended by "evil" (good/evil) or "white" (white/black) or "down" (up/down).

One doesn't really exist w/o the other in traditional myths. I suppose though one could use the term "underworld" but that is usually used to refer to a plane of existence in greek mythology.

 

I think it is the context, mainly, but I know that many people here where I live (large city on the West Coast) have a problem and I remember spelling it "h - e - double hockeysticks" when I was a kid as a substitute.

 

There was an episode on the Simpsons where Bart heard the word "hell" in church so he learned it wasn't a bad word and he ran around saying it. I think that the strangeness of the offensiveness of it in some circles is something that is noticed by a lot of intelligent people. I'm not sure what the deal is with that. It's like "damn," another word that is ok for pastors to use but apparently not anyone else.

[Taphophilia]

I know your daughter is five, but have you asked her what she thinks? Obviously, you are very intelligent, I would think your daughter would be also. As a parent, I was always surprised by what my children had to say and their thoughts even when they were as young as five. Asking her opinion, would not only send her the message that mommy thinks they're important (which will build her confidence and self-esteem), but also will help her understand that she has a contribution and will help her develop her thinking skills.

[R. S. Martin]

I have attempted to explain to her what a religion is and all that. It is really difficult to describe religion to a child raised without one, by the way. I think it's extra confusing because there is no context created by indoctrination. Even harder to explain what a "god" is.

 

Maybe someone mentioned this--I haven't read all the posts yet but lest I forget...I don't have the book anymore but I think it was Dan Barker wrote a really nice book to explain to children that age about religion and god and why we don't believe. That might help you.

[Oldjew]

Bush cocaine users pledge: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of United States, one nation completely invisible with libations and just juice for all."

 

OR the Xian way: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States, one nation of under dogs, with liberty and Jesus for all."

 

Bush's way: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of my United States, one nation of cocaine heads, with liberty only to those that love me and no justice for non-believers."

 

The one I want to see returned: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation invincible, with liberty and justice for all."

[disEnchanted]

I teach kindergarten in a private school. Though the lard's prayer and the pledge of allegiance are broadcast over the intercom each and every morning, my students don't hear it. They have P.E. at that time with no intercom in the gym. And I SURELY don't make them say that crap when they return to my classroom like the other K teachers do.

 

I DO NOT say a prayer with them before lunch either like the other teachers in our school do. My daughter has to hear a girl in her classroom pray before lunch everyday: "Dear God, You rock. We love you and nurse this food into our body." (Yes, the 6th grade student actually says "nurse" and the teacher lets her say this stupid prayer every day.)

 

I also refuse to read the kindergarten children's little religious brainwashing books that they bring from home for show-and-tell to the class. One day 2 students brought books. One was "Green Eggs and Ham" by Dr. Seuss. The other was something like, "God Loves Everyone." I read "Green Eggs and Ham" to the class and told the other child thank you for bringing her book to share but it might be better for her to share that one with her Sunday school class because not everyone believes the same things about religions. I know she didn't understand but...oh well.

 

Don't you wish your daughter was in MY kindergarten class? LOL

[Dave]

Bush cocaine users pledge.....

Can we make bush take a drug test?

 

The one I want to see returned: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation invincible, with liberty and justice for all."

I'd rather see the whole silly thing eliminated.