GraphicsGuy Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I tried to have a personal relationship with Jesus but it felt like I was doing all the work. That's exactly what it is. YOU are doing all the work. The basis is simple. You "idolize" someone and want to be like them so you do things the way you think they would do them or the way you think they would like to do them. You can "pray" to them, talk to their picture, whatever. Does this mean, in any way, that they helped you? No...YOU did ALL the work to change or do the deed or whatever. All they did was set the example to live by in the first place. Is there a personal relationship? No, not in the slightest. The person doesn't respond, they do nothing for you, you can't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste them. Xianity is simply the development of a mindset and following through with it and whatever mindset you liken to Jesus is the mindset you take on. Whether it be the "loving" Jesus or the "tough" Jesus or the "meek" Jesus or the "savior" Jesus. People do it all the time. See someone, admire them, want to be like them, and so emulate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Is there a personal relationship? No, not in the slightest. The person doesn't respond, they do nothing for you, you can't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste them. That's exactly right. And it's quite easy to see - now. It makes you wonder, though - what mental mechanism takes place that can so thoroughly convince someone that it's a real two-way relationship with an actual entity. There were many times when I could clearly sense that something I was doing or saying was actually grieving the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 http://www.transpersonal.com.au/shamanic-experience.htm Take a look at that... see if it's familiar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Interesting link, GH. I hadn't heard the term "shamanism" used as a mental experience like that before. Maybe that is something similar to this relationship thing. I think if a person were to experience this on their own, without group support, they would begin to question their sanity. They would begin to worry that perhaps they were losing it. But this phenomenon is supported by a large group of people who are constantly comparing notes, and exaggerating about it - for the most part. And a person always wonders if everyone else is somehow experiencing a deeper level of "relationship" than they are - and if so - why? And, like Vigil going off to a mountain to try and deepen the experience, everyone is constantly seeking to make this relationship more real. To make it more profound. To get to that place of certainty. And, although they put up a facade like there are no doubts or misgivings, when the truth comes out, they always come up just a little empty - just like Vigil did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 TBH, Shamanism is the only explanation I could come up with for the descriptions... if you're interested, they've managed to synthesise the effect with magnetic fields and ultra-low frequency sound... the full gamut from the feeling you're being watched to full on Hag-ridden terror to transcendental religious bliss with visions and voices... all by messing with the electrics of the three pounds of mush between our ears... but we can induce it chemically too... since the brain is an electro-chemical device. I quite think SOME people have a 'relationship' and a two way one with something but I've seen no evidence of it being an external 'being'... more a facet of the observer, clothed in the garb of some sub-Jungian cultural archetype... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 It makes you wonder, though - what mental mechanism takes place that can so thoroughly convince someone that it's a real two-way relationship with an actual entity. Basically, as you allude to in your latest post, I think if you want for something to be real that your brain will make it real for you. I so badly wanted to talk to God and have him answer, so it happened. People don't want to be alone and they want their lives to mean something and they want for there to be an afterlife. They want it so much that they'll trick themselves into believing anything. When people like ex-xians and/or rationalists/athiests/skeptics/whathaveyou come along and try to introduce reality...well...they're in for a fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Incedentally, most Shamen I know (and yes, among my motley collection of acquaintances I number a couple of Shamen - one Native American, one Siberian (don't ask... it's complex)) think the Chrisitan relationship with Christ is over egged... very familar, but over egged... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lkcollins Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Hello fellow heretics, Here is a quote from Robert M. Price's book "The Reason Driven Life" dealing with a "Personal Relationship with Christ'. I love it.. "The fairy tale speaks of a emperor with no clothes, and here we are dealing with the naked Kings of Kings. How is that, for all thier much-vaulted Bible reading, fundamentalist never seem to recognize that thier "personal relationship with the personal savior"rhetoric never occurs in the Bible at all!, Jesus never speaks this way in the gospels;nor does Paul in the epistles. The oft-repeated demand for "belief in Christ" certainly carries no implications of an inter dialogue with Jesus. In fact, this kind of sentimental "person savior" piety is no older than the eighteenth- century Lutheran Pietist movement from Germany, from whence it was passed into Methodism.And yet, to born again Christians, this particular mind game is the be-all and end-all of Christainty. Only after one is safely in the 700 Club of evangelical Christainty will God welcomes ones worship. I think fundamentalists fail to notice the absurd enormity of thier claims just because there are so many that make them. Everyone in thier perferred circles shares the same notion, so it never occurs to them how outlandish it ought to seem. " Comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 What Mythra describes is a form of Shamanism, just instead of a Coyote god, it's 'The Holy Spirit'â„¢... an induced, subjective mystical state. Great if you can do it, since you'll never need illegal drugs... but dangerous since it's using the same mechanisms in the brain as are over active in a paranoid Schitzophrenic... THANK YOU. I have suspected for a long time that there are strong parallels between aspects of Christianity and shamanism but to have it laid out so bluntly--just THANK YOU. Now I know what Shamanism is. Of the Holy Spirit, if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Make "Decision for Christ". Stand in line to have brain removed, replaced by a majik mush that must be refilled twice or more weekly at communal meetings, costs JUST 10% of your gross, then requires you to look, sound and speak just like all the rest of the former *individuals*. Once you are Xorg, you are continually reprogrammed with messaging and notes from an unknown source, but one your *leadership* trusts, then in turn you must also. "Once you give your heart to jesus, all the decisions are made!" Mind you guys, there goes your nuts and anything resembling your sex drive. You, dear droid will spend your last fucking dollar to please your new Masters, dress like they do, live as they do, and try to make the impression that "all is well, your mind is clear!". After the droid-ism wears off, your pocketbook is deflated, and your nuts are ready to explode (in a good righteous way. don't you DARE try the route of Onan, that SINNER!), somewhere brain cells once thought disconnected start to re-fire, and eventually the synapses hit the feet, feet find way out of being terrorised, person ends up ready to float to somewhere the fuck else but the Xtianborg... Some are shown fortune, ending up as an ExC, others just finish their lives all too suddenly not able to handle this "Freedom" shit. Far too many former slaves have NO idea where to go, what to do, or how to make life happen once their flock master has no hold on them. Slavery in any method may end up as a comfort to those involved in the neck wrap and chains... For those who escape and eventually un-program the mush being washed out, ExC is the place to do so. "Relationship"... Slave, giving all, owing all, being in bondage all to some fucking useless "master" who gives nothing but empty promises and pain in return. Fugg'im... kFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 And, so - in order to begin this relationship, a person must first come into agreement with God about their sinfulness. They must acknowledge that they have lived their lives up until that point as an enemy of God. A child of the world. Who lived a self-centered life - as opposed to a Christ-centered life. Well, I guess I would never make it past the first stage. That was my problem, too. I prayed desperately to know what my sin was so I could confess being a sinner so I would qualify to being saved so I could honestly confess my sin and become a legitimate member of the church. God never answered even that prayer. Well, never is a strong word. When I was in my forties and really, really desperately needed to have a sin to my account so I could get accepted in a new church after leaving the church I was born into, I finally figured out that my sin was the desire for approval from my parents. I was over-joyed to finally have a sin to my name. Nobody took me up on my new-found joy and insight but I didn't go asking for rejection. I confessed my sin and got accepted into the church. From the vantage point of hind-sight it seems there was something seriously twisted and just plain WRONG with such a situation. 1. Wanting parental approval should not ever be so desperate that it can be seen as a sin. It should be a natural outcome of having been brought into the world by them. 2. A religion that denigrates people in order to raise them from the dust is perverted to begin with. Period. Something inside of me absolutely refused to cooperate; it was unthinkable. You will have a peaceful feeling in your heart. You will feel centered. Joyful. Must be nice, not real, but nice. A couple glasses of wine will do that for me, though. I don't need the wine or God. I made peace with my Self and that was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 When it comes to the 'personal relationship' thing...I remember a while ago, there was a christian lady on here who posted links to her romantic fiction page where jesus shows up on a Harley and his hair is described in very loving terms.... I remember that was all of it I could stand to read. A romantic wish-fulfillment fantasy involving Jesus. And I recall conversation with this woman made it pretty clear that she had very romantic interest indeed. Poor woman seemed a few cards short of a full deck I recall. Her very literal jesuslove was just a symptom of deeper issues. As far as 'personal relationships' with jesus, I think to this day, this lady has any other christian beat. Can't remember her name here. Maybe someone else can recall her too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Ann-Marie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 What Mythra describes is a form of Shamanism, just instead of a Coyote god, it's 'The Holy Spirit'â„¢... an induced, subjective mystical state. Great if you can do it, since you'll never need illegal drugs... but dangerous since it's using the same mechanisms in the brain as are over active in a paranoid Schitzophrenic... This dovetails nicely with what I have been trying to say all along. That religion *is* a mental illness. We had a thread here a while back, I think it was a poll along the lines of "Is religion a mental illness?" and lots of folks here said "no". However, the deeper we seem to dig into the mechanics of faith, the more it really does appear to be a mental illness. People shy away from calling it that though. I think this is due to people associating metal illness with "retardation" or other "incurable" forms of mental illness. But it is NOT incurable as many here, if not all the exs, are in fact cured of it. I still believe that if it is recognized for the damaging nature to the personality, that understanding of it for what it is, a mental illness called "delusion", we can better help cure ourselves of any lingering remains. That being said, there are also some natural aspects to this. For example, it is fairly normal to "talk to yourself". Since we all "seem" duel in nature, a selfish person, and a sympathetic person, it is not a great leap, to change the "good guy's" title in our minds to "god" or "christ". Where the "delusion" part sets in is when you are "listening" for other-worldly voices to come to you. Some push their mind, wanting it sooo bad, that they actually start to "hear" these voices. Since xtians tend to relate "good and wholesome" to christ, it's an easy leap to assign the higher consciousness the title of "christ". This voice will then be changed to incorporate some "bad" into it's persona that was not there before, like hatred of jews, or homosexuals. This voice was at one time a voice of fear and mis-understanding, and was a part of the "lower" conscious, or beast like areas of the brain. Mis-assigning these trains of thought to the "upper" area, creates a personality imbalance imo. This can cause people, that would ordinarily be "good" people to do horrible things, with a clear conscious about it. Does this make sense? Now, the reason why they "want" you to think this delusional state is not a religion, but rather a relationship, is also psychological. They hear the word "religion" and a whole list of faiths pop into their head, along with their own. This puts their religion on equal ground with other religions, and that is a mental no-no. In order to exalt it above other religions, they try to say it is *more* then religion, it is a relationship and way of life. This makes it seem somehow "better" then the other religions. They do this too to other sects of xtianity, that is why so many of them will say they alone are true xtians. And then there is the overall belief that "many shall come, but few are taken" (or something like that, same spirit, you know what I mean even if it is not literally correct). So, each sect actually "wants" on some level, to be a "minority", because they feel the mainstream will not make it into heaven. IF the group is too large, they divide up into different sects, each small sect feeling "they are the ones" and all others are lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 While I was reading Mythra's first "Christianized" post, I focused my thoughts into my chest, and felt a tingling in there, that radiated outward. It flsuhed a wwarm feeling of peace over my entire body, and shook me right out of my sleepy state into full alertedness. I would imagine that a Christian would feel that and assume it was Jesus. But I did not call out to Jesus, or God, or repent or acknowledge my sins. There I just did it again. Thinking it is some bio-feedback ability. It does feel good. But if it is more than just me manipulating my own body, a chest-gasm, I have no evidence of it.....but many Christians would see it as evidence of God in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Robbobrob is well on his way to being a shaman... I learned some biofeedback to help cope with migraines... it's the same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Robbobrob is well on his way to being a shaman... I learned some biofeedback to help cope with migraines... it's the same thing... That may be one of the kindest things anyone has ever said to me. I have been on and off (mostly off the last few years) the mystic/shaman path for over ten years. I was big into it back in '98/'99, but lately I have started focusing on it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Me? Kind? I'd best put a stop to that! your mother wears open toed combat boots! all year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Ann-Marie? The one whose signature was the sword-in-the-stone (of King Arthur) and whose other original artwork included Jesus as a white knight on a stallion carrying off a blonde, blue-eyed damsel? The one who went on and on about how she was looking forward to her wedding night with the son of God? I think she called herself Amy Marie. I used to read her posts with morbid fascination. I wonder whatever happened to her and I hope that she found something real in her own life, poor deluded little lonely woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 The oft-repeated demand for "belief in Christ" certainly carries no implications of an inter dialogue with Jesus. In fact, this kind of sentimental "person savior" piety is no older than the eighteenth- century Lutheran Pietist movement from Germany, from whence it was passed into Methodism.And yet, to born again Christians, this particular mind game is the be-all and end-all of Christainty. Only after one is safely in the 700 Club of evangelical Christainty will God welcomes ones worship. I thought this was interesting. Indeed, I wondered where this "personal relationship with Christ" originated, and how it became the ultimate definition or criterion of "christian". I suppose there have always been mystics who fancied themselves as having a relationship with Christ, but I always thought they were in the minority. Overall, some very interesting posts in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"? It means you spend time every day praying (having a one way monologue with an invisible entity) and then spend the rest of your time interpreting every emotion and happenstance in your life in the context of god communicating back. Thanks, Madame, it seems to me that was a very concise and yet complete answer. It seems that prayer and this "relationship" thing are closely related. For many years I would have called myself a Christian because I intellectually assented to the different ideas about God, but I never could understand prayer. It seemed obvious from the way the world works that it can't be true. I mean petitionary prayer. Later I understood there were different types of prayer but I just could never understand it. For that reason it was a relief to me going into the Episcopal Church (from a Baptist upbringing) having the prayers already printed out in the Book of Common Prayer. That seemed less fake to me, like they were just statements you could assent to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 That seemed less fake to me, like they were just statements you could assent to. I would tend to agree with that. Plus, those prayers are (generally) very broad and non-personal, correct? They're less...selfish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 That seemed less fake to me, like they were just statements you could assent to. It's called a Barnum statement... used in all sorts of scams and shillings from Astrology in Newspapers to Mediums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophronia Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Funny thing about relationships with Jesus they are exactly identical to having one with an imaginary friend. I don't know... I've had imaginary friends that were more satisfying than Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhia Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 And He walks with me, And He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own. And the joy we share as we tarry there,None other has ever known. It was my understanding as a Christian that a personal relationship with Christ was just like having a relationship with any other person. I was encouraged to imagine that Christ was walking beside me, like a friend - that I could talk to him like a friend, and that in return, I would be treated likewise. Supposedly as I grew, I was told, my relationship would grow - to the point where I would be able to "hear" Him talking back, and it would seem like a deeper emotional relationship than just a friend - "lover" without the sexual connotation. Communication was done through reading scriptures on a daily basis, "praying without ceasing" (which is a whole other conversation in itself), heartfelt worship, and fellowship with other like-minded followers. Supposedly though, if Christ found you "worthy-enough", as the relationship grew, the bond between the person in question and Christ would become strong that in return of the human worshiping, Chris would endow certain "powers" of his upon the person. I can remember being told that one of the Apostles was so close to Christ that after he died, said apostle would walk past a sick person, and his shadow would cure them; and that we were "promised" (though scripture or prophesy, I dunno), that we would be endowed with even greater powers if we were able to give ourselves up to Christ. So yeah, it's confusing - but I hope this helps. Isn't it total crap?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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