What Is A Personal Relationship With Christ?

[Rhia]

Madame M,

 

I came from that too, I definitely understand. Looking back, it was pure hell. We were encouraged to believe that were our husbands, and that he actually cared about how we looked, what we ate, and even the school courses we took. I can't believe it sometimes.

 

I have always had a question for the ex-Pentes/Charismatic men out there: Did it ever bother you that you were also considered "the Bride of Christ" alongside of the women in the church? I always found it awkward, and near homo-erotic, that men as well as women were supposed to be the "bride" that "married" Christ.

 

I'm glad we're both out.

[bush country]

Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"?

 

It means you spend time every day praying (having a one way monologue with an invisible entity) and then spend the rest of your time interpreting every emotion and happenstance in your life in the context of god communicating back.

 

Thanks, Madame, it seems to me that was a very concise and yet complete answer. It seems that prayer and this "relationship" thing are closely related. For many years I would have called myself a Christian because I intellectually assented to the different ideas about God, but I never could understand prayer. It seemed obvious from the way the world works that it can't be true. I mean petitionary prayer. Later I understood there were different types of prayer but I just could never understand it.

 

For that reason it was a relief to me going into the Episcopal Church (from a Baptist upbringing) having the prayers already printed out in the Book of Common Prayer. That seemed less fake to me, like they were just statements you could assent to.

If I had stayed in the Lutheran church I probably would never have deconverted. The unchanging liturgy did provide some comfort following my divorce 13 years ago. Five or six years ago I decided to pursue a "more spiritual" experience and started going to a Southern Baptist church. Getting hammered every Sunday and Wednesday on the "real" relationship with Christ finally undid me. I could not fake it or label emotional experiences as spiritual ones. Real to me meant that I did not generate it inside my head, that the reality had to come from outside of me. I could no longer participate in the insanity of trying to make the relationship real. It was literally making me crazy. The relief came when I quit believing.

 

I think a lot of people stay in traditional liturgical churches because the Sunday morning services are just recited by rote memory. They seldom really think about what they are saying. Just that they've always gone to church, it's the right thing to do, it's Sunday morning and time for the recitation.

[Deva]

If I had stayed in the Lutheran church I probably would never have deconverted. The unchanging liturgy did provide some comfort following my divorce 13 years ago. Five or six years ago I decided to pursue a "more spiritual" experience and started going to a Southern Baptist church. Getting hammered every Sunday and Wednesday on the "real" relationship with Christ finally undid me. I could not fake it or label emotional experiences as spiritual ones. Real to me meant that I did not generate it inside my head, that the reality had to come from outside of me. I could no longer participate in the insanity of trying to make the relationship real. It was literally making me crazy. The relief came when I quit believing.

 

I think a lot of people stay in traditional liturgical churches because the Sunday morning services are just recited by rote memory. They seldom really think about what they are saying. Just that they've always gone to church, it's the right thing to do, it's Sunday morning and time for the recitation.

 

I wonder sometimes if I had been raised in the Episcopal church instead of the Baptist church if I would ever have deconverted. In the Baptist church as you say there is this huge pressure to have a "personal relationship" with Christ. I never understood it, and it doesn't really exist in the Episcopal Chruch except in some side avenues such as "Cursillo" (another thread in itself). I think the prayer and relationship thing was one of the things that always made me feel that I did not belong with other Christians in the Baptist church.

 

In a liturgical church there are the different seasons of the church which gives a sort of comfortable continuity and significance to life. I did really like this. Each season had a different color and a different liturgy. I don't think people reciting the prayers and creed really think much about what it says. They are mainly there for the companionship and feeling they belong to something bigger than themselves. I still think there is value in that.

 

You say "Real to me meant that I did not generate it inside my head, that the reality had to come from outside of me." That is also how I feel. I always felt the Baptist religion wasn't real.

[GraphicsGuy]

I think a lot of people stay in traditional liturgical churches because the Sunday morning services are just recited by rote memory. They seldom really think about what they are saying. Just that they've always gone to church, it's the right thing to do, it's Sunday morning and time for the recitation.

 

I have to say that this seems like a "safer" form of religion to me. I have no particular use for rituals and such, but something like this would be palatable for me considering I cannot stomach the emotionalism and tyranny of evangelicalism.

 

Religion just becomes a totally different creature when you throw all the extra emotions in and focus on the literalism and realism of it. Probably not much different than taking a D&D game too far...

[Sophronia]

Religion just becomes a totally different creature when you throw all the extra emotions in and focus on the literalism and realism of it. Probably not much different than taking a D&D game too far...

 

Or Star Trek.

 

Or Stranger In A Strange Land.

[lkcollins]

And He walks with me, And He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own. And the joy we share as we tarry there,

None other has ever known.

 

It was my understanding as a Christian that a personal relationship with Christ was just like having a relationship with any other person. I was encouraged to imagine that Christ was walking beside me, like a friend - that I could talk to him like a friend, and that in return, I would be treated likewise. Supposedly as I grew, I was told, my relationship would grow - to the point where I would be able to "hear" Him talking back, and it would seem like a deeper emotional relationship than just a friend - "lover" without the sexual connotation.

 

Communication was done through reading scriptures on a daily basis, "praying without ceasing" (which is a whole other conversation in itself), heartfelt worship, and fellowship with other like-minded followers.

 

Supposedly though, if Christ found you "worthy-enough", as the relationship grew, the bond between the person in question and Christ would become strong that in return of the human worshiping, Chris would endow certain "powers" of his upon the person. I can remember being told that one of the Apostles was so close to Christ that after he died, said apostle would walk past a sick person, and his shadow would cure them; and that we were "promised" (though scripture or prophesy, I dunno), that we would be endowed with even greater powers if we were able to give ourselves up to Christ.

 

So yeah, it's confusing - but I hope this helps. Isn't it total crap?!

 

 

Wow Rhia,this is scary. That song has been ringing around in my head for the last few days. I found myself singing it while I was cleaning my kitchen. Someone help me!

[Kenny]

This is a great topic and I've really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions and analysis. I look back on that period of my live with amazement that I participated as I did. I also look back at the people who were at my side and are still committed to it and those who I attend church with today. A couple of things that were said rang particularly true with me and helped me to understand what happened to me back then and why I still see it happening.

 

It makes you wonder, though - what mental mechanism takes place that can so thoroughly convince someone that it's a real two-way relationship with an actual entity.

 

It's a mental mechanism, but it caused me to act, so it affected every aspect of my life. What was going through my head???

 

I think if a person were to experience this on their own, without group support, they would begin to question their sanity. They would begin to worry that perhaps they were losing it.

 

But this phenomenon is supported by a large group of people who are constantly comparing notes, and exaggerating about it - for the most part. And a person always wonders if everyone else is somehow experiencing a deeper level of "relationship" than they are - and if so - why?

 

You answered your own question and, in turn, my own! Very cool. Of course! The group dynamic! Wanting to fit in... feeling a part of something. Even as ridiculous as it was, there was still a hierarchy involved and one could rise through the ranks. There was, ultimately, a goal I could fix on and work toward and that was comforting and encouraging in it's own right. I could rise above my peers in my spirituality! I could speek "Christian-eese" better than they could! I could be more HOLY and RIGHTEOUS because of my knowledge! HOW IT SICKENS ME THAT I WAS LIKE THIS!!!

 

Five or six years ago I decided to pursue a "more spiritual" experience and started going to a Southern Baptist church. Getting hammered every Sunday and Wednesday on the "real" relationship with Christ finally undid me. I could not fake it or label emotional experiences as spiritual ones. Real to me meant that I did not generate it inside my head, that the reality had to come from outside of me. I could no longer participate in the insanity of trying to make the relationship real. It was literally making me crazy. The relief came when I quit believing.

 

I began my religion in a church like this. At first, as I said before, it was almost like a goal. I'll admit I wanted that relationship. I'd seen so many who appeared to really be on top of life and had the answers. I wanted that security. I wanted that knowledge. I wanted that intimacy. I wanted to be... LIKE THEM! After being in it for 10 years, I saw that they were no different than I was. Rather, they just played like they were and let their little world comfort them. I couldn't go along with it anymore if it wasn't real. What would be the point of investing so much time and effort into something was wasn't real? Prayer, relationship with Jesus, the Bible... no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't make it REAL.

 

I gotta give props to the inventor(s) of that religion that isn't a religion. It really is well suited to psychologically trap and hold onto the human mind. It uses fear and carrot/stick training very well. The ultimate beauty of it in my opinion is the "personal relationship" aspect. That single thing sets it apart from the competing religions. It provides a back door for glossing over Biblical errors and sidestepping logical arguments. Christians can avoid the hard questions about what they believe because they are past mere religion - they converse directly with the One True and Living God. How the fuck can you argue with that?

 

You're correct!!! There's no way to counter or question when someone says, "This is what God is telling me!" When one is in that environment, it's simply not up for discussion anymore. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. No wonder over 900 people drank poisoned Kool Aid!!! With that said, I'd have either been one of those drinking it or encouraging others to drink it. When I consider that I was of that mindset, that alone is repulsive at best. What a fool I was!

 

It means you spend time every day praying (having a one way monologue with an invisible entity) and then spend the rest of your time interpreting every emotion and happenstance in your life in the context of god communicating back.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Everything was hit and miss at best. I was interpreting and so was everyone else. WHAT WAS GOD TRYING TO SAY??? No one really knew. But every thought, feeling and occurance was obviously God trying to tell me something. I just could never be sure if I was getting it right. I can name several distinct decisions I made because I was confident that God was speaking to me and when I started looking back on those decisions, I couldn't help but ask myself if it was really me all along. When I had to admit that it wasn't secret and divine communication, I had no choice but to begin taking responsibility for my own actions. I could no longer rationalize that I had done what God had told me to do. I had done what I wanted to do and what I thought was the best decision. This left me holding the bag. And it hurt. Yet, it brought freedom!

 

My time here, once again, has been a type of cleansing for me. This topic has been wonderful to read and participate in. Thanks to all of you.

[R. S. Martin]

This is a great topic and I've really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions and analysis. I look back on that period of my live with amazement that I participated as I did. I also look back at the people who were at my side and are still committed to it and those who I attend church with today. A couple of things that were said rang particularly true with me and helped me to understand what happened to me back then and why I still see it happening.

 

It makes you wonder, though - what mental mechanism takes place that can so thoroughly convince someone that it's a real two-way relationship with an actual entity.

 

It's a mental mechanism, but it caused me to act, so it affected every aspect of my life. What was going through my head???

 

What's going through your head now?

[L.B.]

I was in a home-group meeting with a 60s-ish woman who told everyone about how her husband cheated, witheld sex from her and then finally left her.

 

She told the assembly that she went to the beach one morning... just her and jesus. She lay down on a towel and started praying about how she felt so unloved... then she got into tongues... then she said JESUS GAVE HER AN ORGASM! AND... IT... WAS...NOT...DIRTY! (her emphasis). She was crying and telling everyone how jesus will be your lover if your spouse ever leaves you.

 

Makes sense to me... I tried to serve 'god' in the church, and ol' jesus sure fucked me real good. Still sore, too.

[Eponymic]

She told the assembly that she went to the beach one morning... just her and jesus. She lay down on a towel and started praying about how she felt so unloved... then she got into tongues... then she said JESUS GAVE HER AN ORGASM! AND... IT... WAS...NOT...DIRTY! (her emphasis). She was crying and telling everyone how jesus will be your lover if your spouse ever leaves you.

 

Now THAT, show the true power of the mind. You can believe/do most anything of you put your mind to it.

[jackbauer]

I'm going to bump up this thread since it's a pretty big issue for me and a lot of Christians. If you want my opinion, the Christians did most of the speaking for Jesus or god, either that or they would point to the bible. I agree with those that say coincidences could be interprated as signs from god and that there's a lot of emotional sensationalism involved. God never speaks directly, but we somehow commune (or our thoughts could be playing tricks on us). Of course, I was tricked into thinking the guilt and feeling of uncertainty was god trying to real me back in. I've actually watched a venomfangx video on youtube (yeah, I know) and he of course claimed that those who were truly saved wanted to hang out with Christians, whcih to me sounds like "JOIN US".

 

When I really look at the 'relationship' with god or Jesus and see it for what it is, I can't help but LMAO. It's a relationship where you need an instruction manual and others to guide you to see if you are doing it right (insert annoying Christianese expression about 'doing the lords work'). In fact, I remember a video on youtube (I think it's gone now) that described it perfectly. Basically, two guys come up to some guys house and want him to 'kiss bobs ass' or they will get a million dollars, but if he doesn't he will have shit kicked out of him. The twist, no one has ever seen Bob, but they act as if he's there and worship him. I too would like to know what it means to have a 'relationship' with god or Jesus, seeing it's so vital for salvation.

[Thackerie]

... In fact, I remember a video on youtube (I think it's gone now) that described it perfectly. Basically, two guys come up to some guys house and want him to 'kiss bobs ass' or they will get a million dollars, but if he doesn't he will have shit kicked out of him. The twist, no one has ever seen Bob, but they act as if he's there and worship him. I too would like to know what it means to have a 'relationship' with god or Jesus, seeing it's so vital for salvation.

 

It's still there - with plenty of updates. It's called "Kissing Hank's Ass."

[jackbauer]

... In fact, I remember a video on youtube (I think it's gone now) that described it perfectly. Basically, two guys come up to some guys house and want him to 'kiss bobs ass' or they will get a million dollars, but if he doesn't he will have shit kicked out of him. The twist, no one has ever seen Bob, but they act as if he's there and worship him. I too would like to know what it means to have a 'relationship' with god or Jesus, seeing it's so vital for salvation.

 

It's still there - with plenty of updates. It's called "Kissing Hank's Ass."

 

Oh cool! I just found it. Awesome video and so true!

[Guest eejay]

I was in a home-group meeting with a 60s-ish woman who told everyone about how her husband cheated, witheld sex from her and then finally left her.

 

She told the assembly that she went to the beach one morning... just her and jesus. She lay down on a towel and started praying about how she felt so unloved... then she got into tongues... then she said JESUS GAVE HER AN ORGASM! AND... IT... WAS...NOT...DIRTY! (her emphasis). She was crying and telling everyone how jesus will be your lover if your spouse ever leaves you.

 

Makes sense to me... I tried to serve 'god' in the church, and ol' jesus sure fucked me real good. Still sore, too.

Geez....this was posted while my computer was down. Glad someone revived the post. ROTFLMAO. Someone get some straightjackets, now jesus gives free orgasms

[Archangel]

I had this online exchange with a Christian:

 

Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"?

 

Christian: And this really surprises me. I mean, a relationship with Christ is the heart of Christianity! How can you claim to be a Christian and not understand what this relationship is?

 

The slow realization that this "relationship" was nothing more than self-talk was a key part of my faith first unraveling and then crashing and burning. Why didn't I feel a supernatural change when I became a christian (no matter how many times I tried to re-do it)? Why didn't I seem to have the spiritual connection to Jesus like everyone else? Why was I not experiencing the closeness of Jesus no matter how good of a christian I tried to be? Why didn't Jesus speak to me like he did to all of my friends?

 

It must have been because I was bad, there must have been some sort of secret sin that I was failing to repent from, I must not have been giving "all" of myself to Jesus. But I was doing everything I knew to do. Why was Jesus ignoring me?

 

So I got depressed. And suicidal. And Jesus never came to help, no matter how much I read the Bible and prayed and fasted and denied myself all worldly pleasure and enjoyment, no matter how much advice I sought from "godly" people. They told me that all this was the result of me not being spiritual enough (like them I suppose).

 

Finally I came to terms with the fact that I never knew Jesus to begin with, and neither does anyone else, because it is a total lie. This "relationship with Jesus" is nothing more than a code word to establish personal spiritual street-cred within your own personal christian bubble, and that the depth of this "relationship" is directly proportional to how much you talk about it. And the more you talk about it, the more spiritual you appear to everyone with your bubble, thus enabling you to advance socially, etc.

 

Maybe within my experience I was self-conscience enough to not constantly talk about my relationshp with Jesus, maybe I just didn't repeat it enough to myself and my friends to fully convince myself that it was real. It seems so simple now, but it took several painful years to work through this, to realize that I no longer have to be depressed because the Jesus who abandoned me was never even there.

[Deva]

Maybe within my experience I was self-conscience enough to not constantly talk about my relationshp with Jesus, maybe I just didn't repeat it enough to myself and my friends to fully convince myself that it was real. It seems so simple now, but it took several painful years to work through this, to realize that I no longer have to be depressed because the Jesus who abandoned me was never even there.

 

 

Yes it may seem simple, but like much else in Christianity, its difficult to extract yourself from once you have bought into it even slightly. I think the difficulty of extracting yourself is proportionate to how long you have been immersed in it and how seriously you took it.

 

I am convinced that a "personal relationship with Christ" is nothing more than relabelling one's own internal dialogue so that, with enough mental gymnastics, one can convince oneself that part of that dialogue comes from an invisible man named "Jesus". And this is supposed to be spiritual?

 

I am reading a book titled "The Reason Driven Life" by Robert M. Price. In this book Price takes up the subject of this thread. He says the words "personal relationship with Christ" do not occur in the Bible and in fact did not occur before the 18th century Lutheran pietists. It is something derived from putting several different verses together-- but nowhere do we ever even read in the Bible that something like this is required.

 

So if you were to speak with a Christian from the 14th century about a personal relationship with Christ they wouldn't know what you were talking about either.

[jackbauer]

I had this online exchange with a Christian:

 

Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"?

 

Christian: And this really surprises me. I mean, a relationship with Christ is the heart of Christianity! How can you claim to be a Christian and not understand what this relationship is?

 

The slow realization that this "relationship" was nothing more than self-talk was a key part of my faith first unraveling and then crashing and burning. Why didn't I feel a supernatural change when I became a christian (no matter how many times I tried to re-do it)? Why didn't I seem to have the spiritual connection to Jesus like everyone else? Why was I not experiencing the closeness of Jesus no matter how good of a christian I tried to be? Why didn't Jesus speak to me like he did to all of my friends?

 

It must have been because I was bad, there must have been some sort of secret sin that I was failing to repent from, I must not have been giving "all" of myself to Jesus. But I was doing everything I knew to do. Why was Jesus ignoring me?

 

So I got depressed. And suicidal. And Jesus never came to help, no matter how much I read the Bible and prayed and fasted and denied myself all worldly pleasure and enjoyment, no matter how much advice I sought from "godly" people. They told me that all this was the result of me not being spiritual enough (like them I suppose).

 

Finally I came to terms with the fact that I never knew Jesus to begin with, and neither does anyone else, because it is a total lie. This "relationship with Jesus" is nothing more than a code word to establish personal spiritual street-cred within your own personal christian bubble, and that the depth of this "relationship" is directly proportional to how much you talk about it. And the more you talk about it, the more spiritual you appear to everyone with your bubble, thus enabling you to advance socially, etc.

 

Maybe within my experience I was self-conscience enough to not constantly talk about my relationshp with Jesus, maybe I just didn't repeat it enough to myself and my friends to fully convince myself that it was real. It seems so simple now, but it took several painful years to work through this, to realize that I no longer have to be depressed because the Jesus who abandoned me was never even there.

 

Another reason I'm glad to have gotten out of this mental hellhole. What I also don't understand is this; if Jesus already paid the price, why do we have to 'submit' to him and all that? The whole relationship with Jesus thing is just more annoying Christianese expressions that no one understands, so they can hide behind their bible and and make excuses as to why someone was never saved. It's this kind of stuff, that makes me very very angry.

[Deva]

Another reason I'm glad to have gotten out of this mental hellhole. What I also don't understand is this; if Jesus already paid the price, why do we have to 'submit' to him and all that? The whole relationship with Jesus thing is just more annoying Christianese expressions that no one understands, so they can hide behind their bible and and make excuses as to why someone was never saved. It's this kind of stuff, that makes me very very angry.

 

Yes Jackbauer - and I remember some big controversy at one time as to whether Jesus was just your saviour or was he your Lord and saviour. The lordship of Christ. It was as if the Christians were always finding something to divide themselves over and fight about. Anything would do. Yeah, I call their little expressions Christianese too and you can identify one of them a mile away by the way they talk. Like they can't speak properly. It ticks me off no end.

[Guest eejay]

I had this online exchange with a Christian:

 

Me: I don't honestly have a clue what you mean "relationship with Christ"?

 

Christian: And this really surprises me. I mean, a relationship with Christ is the heart of Christianity! How can you claim to be a Christian and not understand what this relationship is?

 

The slow realization that this "relationship" was nothing more than self-talk was a key part of my faith first unraveling and then crashing and burning. Why didn't I feel a supernatural change when I became a christian (no matter how many times I tried to re-do it)? Why didn't I seem to have the spiritual connection to Jesus like everyone else? Why was I not experiencing the closeness of Jesus no matter how good of a christian I tried to be? Why didn't Jesus speak to me like he did to all of my friends?

 

It must have been because I was bad, there must have been some sort of secret sin that I was failing to repent from, I must not have been giving "all" of myself to Jesus. But I was doing everything I knew to do. Why was Jesus ignoring me?

 

So I got depressed. And suicidal. And Jesus never came to help, no matter how much I read the Bible and prayed and fasted and denied myself all worldly pleasure and enjoyment, no matter how much advice I sought from "godly" people. They told me that all this was the result of me not being spiritual enough (like them I suppose).

 

Finally I came to terms with the fact that I never knew Jesus to begin with, and neither does anyone else, because it is a total lie. This "relationship with Jesus" is nothing more than a code word to establish personal spiritual street-cred within your own personal christian bubble, and that the depth of this "relationship" is directly proportional to how much you talk about it. And the more you talk about it, the more spiritual you appear to everyone with your bubble, thus enabling you to advance socially, etc.

 

Maybe within my experience I was self-conscience enough to not constantly talk about my relationshp with Jesus, maybe I just didn't repeat it enough to myself and my friends to fully convince myself that it was real. It seems so simple now, but it took several painful years to work through this, to realize that I no longer have to be depressed because the Jesus who abandoned me was never even there.

Archangel...my feelings were a lot like yours. I know I tried.

[Archangel]

Yes Jackbauer - and I remember some big controversy at one time as to whether Jesus was just your saviour or was he your Lord and saviour. The lordship of Christ.

 

Ah, I remember this one. "You want him to be your savior, don't you? Don't you want the free gift of salvation and eternal life instead of the fiery pit of hell? Then you'd better submit to him as lord and obey his every command for the rest of your natural life! If you don't, you'll never be 100% sure you're saved. In fact, disobedience and not submitting to him as lord are sure signs you're not really saved." Etc., etc., etc...more burdens for the weary.

 

But yet, salvation is good for eternity and is entirely by grace of god, not by works...

[Legion]

[Mike D]

As with many things in Christianity, the whole "personal relationship" thing was just one more thing that seems sort of, well..... silly. Jesus is invisible, he can't talk, he can't sit on your couch, he can't even text you on your Blackberry. Yet somehow this is your new BFF (best friends forever)?

 

Gee it's a good thing experienced Christians are there to explain all this, otherwise we might actually think we're being duped

[I Broke Free]

But now - here is where it gets really ugly. When a person shows up in church and they aren't bubbling over with the "joy of the LORD", the other good brothers and sisters in Christ take it upon themselves to determine that there is something wrong with the person's spiritual life. Like being down sometimes isn't just an ordinary, everyday fact of life. And so everyone learns to act happy even when they aren't - just to avoid the scrutiny.

 

So true, so very very true. I witnessed and lived this myself for two years before getting out with just a shred of my sanity left. I cried often in the car on the way to and from church, but put me in a room with my fellow believers and I was all smiles. I did not want anyone to know I was a failure in my faith. I was in the Mormon Church and remember vividly the Stepford Moms who had five or six kids under the age of eight tagging along behind them. When they were approached by anyone their faces perked up and they put on their plastic smiles, but if you saw them when they did not know you were looking it was the face of despair. Now I know why Utah has the highest percentage people on anti-depressants.

[chefranden]

Geez....this was posted while my computer was down. Glad someone revived the post. ROTFLMAO. Someone get some straightjackets, now jesus gives free orgasms

 

Ya, well me too. I've never charged for an orgasm in my life. I've been charged for some, but I've never required payment.

 

 

!I'm God!

[chefranden]

I was all about Brother Lawrence and practicing the presence of Christ. Old BL was a Catholic so I felt a bit guilty, but then he worked in a kitchen like me. I felt a kinship with him. I read his little book over and over, and practiced and practiced. It never dawned on me that if God were present you wouldn't have to get good at pretending he was present. After all if God is everywhere you can't help but shit on him. But idiot me, I didn't notice the illogic of this practicing. I never got around to the hair shirt, the cat-o-nine tails, or wrapping barbed wire around a leg. That is probably where I went wrong.

 

Well it's too late now.