Irrationalism

[Antlerman]

How does any of this relate to putting your pants on in the morning and facing another day?

What are we putting our pants on for? Simply to function, survive, and then die? Are we but a parakeet in a cage? What of the nuance of life as consciously aware human being? What of the depth of being inside? What of the nature of beauty? What of our own nature? What is that nature? What is there, or isn't there? Is it all an illusion, or is there something more that who we are can realize in the expansion of our minds?

 

How does it relate to putting on my pants? Because my body houses my mind, but is not my mind. I put on my pants because my body needs that, but if that is all there is, then what is that? Why bother with pants at all, and not just return to the forest?

 

What would make me want to devote hundreds of hours to philosophy that you guys clearly have, only to emerge into some rarified atmosphere that most people can't breathe in -- possibly, myself included?

That would be up to you, what appeals to you. Clearly the oxygen level is fine to sustain life. For me, I can't breath the air in the cities without feeling anesthetized, metaphorically speaking.

 

Either the truth at the heart of reality exceeds language or this is all a lot of over-thinking. Either way it seems like a waste of time.

Only if you believe that language defines the limits of knowing reality. To me the whole discussion is about overcoming that belief, that view that imposing that very limit. It's not much different than breaking free from the ceiling above our heads that the mythic religious systems impose. We have already broke free from that limit and moved beyond them. Why is is so hard to imagine, or experience, moving beyond the current limits of these languages as well? How is it different?

 

I would hardly call the processes of progress a waste of time. But it only comes in unraveling these notions that create those limits themselves. How else can we move ahead? How else can we move beyond?

 

Help me out here. Explain to me what I am missing out on.

This is an explanation. But that it appeals to you is entirely something within you to either feel is important or not relevant. For me it's entirely of great value.

[DesertBob]

What are we putting our pants on for? Simply to function, survive, and then die? Are we but a parakeet in a cage?

Yes and no. I find meaning in certain things -- being a good friend, expressing caring, helping others -- but at the end of the day it facilitates all of those people functioning, surviving, and ultimately dying. All that we do is basically to help each other put one foot in front of the other.

 

I am a volunteer off an on at the hospice facility up the road here and last weekend, in between preparing meals and running errands for patients and their visitors, a woman on one of those long vigils for her actively dying husband fetched up in the living room near where I was taking a reading break, and struck up a conversation with me about why I'm a volunteer. Following my training, I mostly turned it around and listened to her talk about her experience and her feelings. Ultimately I was invited to join her family keeping watch over her husband, accepted a piece of ordered in pizza they were enjoying, and hoped that some day when I die there will be people taking turns holding my hand like was happening for this guy.

 

All very warm and fuzzy, but were I to go back there today his room would be empty or occupied with someone else -- rinse and repeat. I like making a difficult situation a little easier for people and I have creds because I've been through the experience in several creative ways myself, but ultimately I can do nothing to make such losses anything other than the essential obscenity that they are.

 

All the philosophical musings in the world do not change such things.

What would make me want to devote hundreds of hours to philosophy that you guys clearly have, only to emerge into some rarified atmosphere that most people can't breathe in -- possibly, myself included?

That would be up to you, what appeals to you. Clearly the oxygen level is fine to sustain life. For me, I can't breath the air in the cities without feeling anesthetized, metaphorically speaking.

Neither do I, but the hallucinogens in the stratosphere that others trip out on seem to elude me. And even if they did not, I suspect they would not explain anything, just make me not care about the lack of explanation. Sort of like how many pain killers don't so much remove pain but make you not care in the slightest that it hurts.

 

Indeed, most of what I have been able to incorporate about Eastern thought is about just that -- not caring in the slightest. That part does work, to a point. Unhappiness is the impedance mismatch between what you want and what you get -- the only way to decrease unhappiness is to either bludgeon reality into conformance with your expectations, or to quit having expectations. Given that the scope of our ability to act on our environment has its limits, letting go is often the only actual option.

Either the truth at the heart of reality exceeds language or this is all a lot of over-thinking. Either way it seems like a waste of time.

Only if you believe that language defines the limits of knowing reality. To me the whole discussion is about overcoming that belief, that view that imposing that very limit. It's not much different than breaking free from the ceiling above our heads that the mythic religious systems impose. We have already broke free from that limit and moved beyond them. Why is is so hard to imagine, or experience, moving beyond the current limits of these languages as well? How is it different?

Imagining is easy, but for me and others I have met, experience is hard. I don't know how to do anything but think, relate, and communicate about what I know.

 

Some of us don't have much in the way of intuitive / subjective equipment, it would seem. Even for some who have it, it seems compartmentalized so that it's useful, for, say, perceiving what someone needs from nonverbal cues or seeing the true motivations behind seemingly unrelated actions; or for picking the right stock or choosing the most productive way to focus resources when there is no empirical basis for such a decision or for creating great art. But for connecting with the "ground of being" and finding a personal center, not so much.

 

Someone very dear to me has grown emotionally numb, as if some tipping point has been reached in the constant stress of living that has switched off some circuits so that the person can continue to function anyway, although in a semi-detached way that feels anesthetized. That has happened to me to a lesser extent as well. I would like to believe that there is something for people like us other than to let pieces of themselves fall off and walk away from them.

I would hardly call the processes of progress a waste of time. But it only comes in unraveling these notions that create those limits themselves. How else can we move ahead? How else can we move beyond?

You perceive progress where I do not. And that's the crux of the matter. Perceived progress provides motivation. Either I am not progressing or I am overlooking progress, although perhaps ultimately both amount to the same thing. Either you are progressing or think you are, and for practical purposes I suppose those amount to the same thing as well.

 

BTW this all sounds much darker and morose than it actually is. I actually enjoy getting up in the morning, but I would just prefer to enjoy it by some method other than having very modest hopes and very short time horizons, that's all. I would prefer some sense of joy and excitement that I once at least knew flickers of rather than a workmanlike satisfaction that I have done well or at least haven't screwed up today. I hate how much I've been forced to "price in" the vicissitudes of life into my expectations so that I can feel a minimum of disappointment and a maximum of pleasant surprise on any given day.

 

What I've seen of philosophy leads me to where I already am but doesn't seem to offer anything more compelling and interesting than that. I'm becoming convinced that this must suffice -- and it many ways, it sort of does, but I gotta say, I missed the fresh-faced optimism and hubris of youth sometimes.

[Ouroboros]

...high MEGO factor ...

I'll remember that acronym. That's good.

[DesertBob]

...high MEGO factor ...

I'll remember that acronym. That's good.

http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/m/MEGO.html

[Deva]

Why should these views deal with the sense of self?

At the root of scientific knowledge there are several dualities. The first of these is a discernment between self and everything non-self. Further, our selves are the locus of many things, and among them are languages. A model (an explicit understanding) of a natural system (another duality - a discernment between a system and its environment) is obtained when the implications between the propositions of a formal language (yet another duality - based on a discernment between syntax and semantics) are brought into (at least partial) congruence with the implications (or entailments) between phenomena.

In English?

Before making another attempt let me say this. I was under the impression that this thread is hovering around the subject of understanding and what having an understanding entails. In an effort to contribute, I am putting forth what is known about the nature of scientific understandings.

 

A scientific understanding is more commonly referred to as a model. A model is a relation between a fragment of language called a formal system and a piece of nature called a natural system. As such a scientific understanding is an interplay between the subjective mind and the objective world. In order to make this interplay explicit we must make several discernments and thus create several dualities because every discernment creates a duality. The first thing we discern here is a distinction between self and non-self.

 

Man I hope that was better.

 

 

My thoughts as I am reading the thread and particularly this post:

 

1. Where do the great scientific ideas originate? How did Einstein come up with relativity theory? Which led to great discoveries into quantum mechanics, etc. and was later, very much later, proven by natural phenomenon?

 

2. I a m thinking I understand what you are saying, Legion, and other posts you have done in the past like this, but am not entirely sure. Rosen has way too many mathematical equations.

 

3. Is the "natural system" not also defined by language and run through the human brain with all the limitations it may have?

 

My position is that we do live in duality and function in it daily, but the reality is nonduality which we are hardly able to comprehend except on an intellectual level.

[Legion]

I think these are excellent questions and points Deva. Let me at least attempt to address them.

 

1. Where do the great scientific ideas originate? How did Einstein come up with relativity theory? Which led to great discoveries into quantum mechanics, etc. and was later, very much later, proven by natural phenomenon?

In some sense I liken this question as, "Why does learning occur?" I do not know and I wish I did. How is understanding obtained? Einstein himself said that imagination is more important than knowledge. And I think surely our imaginations must be engaged before an understanding is hit upon. I think there must be something akin to art involved. And who knows where inspiration may come from?

 

2. I a m thinking I understand what you are saying, Legion, and other posts you have done in the past like this, but am not entirely sure. Rosen has way too many mathematical equations.

Much of what I am saying above can be found in Rosen's book Life Itself in the chapter entitled "Some necessary epistemological considerations". It is almost entirely devoid of mathematics.

 

3. Is the "natural system" not also defined by language and run through the human brain with all the limitations it may have?

It is kind of strange when you try to think of it directly. I mean it seems so obvious in our everyday lives. We parse our environment into various objects and systems without giving it any conscious thought. But how would one begin to define the boundaries or limits of the system known as a society for instance. Surely they are natural systems, but they are not objects such as a rock or a tree.

 

My position is that we do live in duality and function in it daily, but the reality is nonduality which we are hardly able to comprehend except on an intellectual level.

Nonduality may indeed be the reality. The universe may in fact be one unbroken whole. But practical considerations necessitate that we discern and every discernment distinguishes between this and that.

[Rev R]

Partly so, but I'd say more understanding the impetus of both and providing it a new level of incorporation. It's trying to embrace the baby in the bathwater into a new perspective, rather than simply bridging the gap between the two. For me personally, I had always sought to bridge reason and faith only to find that could only happen beyond both. It's not a middle ground, its new ground.

 

thank you for that explanation.

 

 

If they are saying that *reality* is defined by these systems, and they do not take all the psychological, sociological, and cultural influences into account in this 'relational' exchanges, then they are incomplete. They don't factor in that how internal world of reality, the mind, the consciousness of being that is hardly any mere slave to the machine. Why should they deal with it? Because it is not a slave, but a co-creator.

 

perhaps that is because using these systems to examine internal reality would be akin to using a pipe wrench to drive a nail.

 

reality works regardless to how i view it.

 

if i wear the hat of a materialist, the sun rises, the sun sets, beings arise and fade.

if i wear the hat of a Zennist, the sun rises, the sun sets, beings arise and fade.

if i wear no hat in particular, the sun rises, the sun sets, beings arise and fade.

 

Because we are gods.

From the One to the many. From the many to the One.

the hammer is void

the nail the same

BANG! BANG! BANG!

now their nature revealed.

[Deva]

Nonduality may indeed be the reality. The universe may in fact be one unbroken whole. But practical considerations necessitate that we discern and every discernment distinguishes between this and that.

 

Agreed that we operate in duality. But I don't think that is the underlying reality. I had a dream last night which was so real it was almost as if I were experiencing the life of someone else -- it is a situation that would never happen in my waking life. I have these kinds of experiences and I do wonder about the seemingly permeable barriers between our minds.

 

I misplaced my book "Life Itself". I have the "Essays on Life Itself". I will have to do a search -

[DesertBob]

Where do the great scientific ideas originate? How did Einstein come up with relativity theory? Which led to great discoveries into quantum mechanics, etc. and was later, very much later, proven by natural phenomenon?

Although Einstein was a man of science, he moved science forward through intuitive flashes of insight. As such, his innovations were fundamentally the result of intuition and abstract thought experiments, not objective reasoning processes. Of course he did the math that validated his theories, and over time, objective data has come in that validate or at least fit the theories.

 

The difference with subjective transcendent experiences is that you can't meaningfully validate them mathematically or with empirical data. I think that for Einstein, the divine was a sense of awe at nature, but he saw no mystical substance to that -- to him nature was just esthetically pleasing and elegant and he saw himself as exploring the manifest universe via mathematics. He did not really go places where rational thought would not take him.

 

I think that many people use irrational processes to ultimately arrive at rational ends, however, if they don't achieve those rational ends they will eventually distrust, discount and reject the irrational. In other words subjectivity has to be objectively validated at some point, or you cross the line from visionary to crazy person.

[Rev R]

How does any of this relate to putting your pants on in the morning and facing another day?

 

Consider for a moment how much of your own mental activity (speech and thought) meets this criteria.

 

Help me out here. Explain to me what I am missing out on.

 

here is the thing. if the heart of reality is beyond concepts, what words are going to convince you to undertake the investigation?

 

if it's simply over thought bullshit that is a waste of time since it has no bearing on your day to day life, what words are going to convince you to undertake the investigation?

[DesertBob]

How does any of this relate to putting your pants on in the morning and facing another day?

Consider for a moment how much of your own mental activity (speech and thought) meets this criteria.

Speaking only for myself -- quite a lot actually. But that's kind of beside the point. We are not talking about the overhead of moment to moment living, but how to invest scarce resources of time, energy and heart that are not consumed by that, in things that will, hopefully , make moment to moment living more compelling.

Help me out here. Explain to me what I am missing out on.

 

here is the thing. if the heart of reality is beyond concepts, what words are going to convince you to undertake the investigation?

 

if it's simply over thought bullshit that is a waste of time since it has no bearing on your day to day life, what words are going to convince you to undertake the investigation?

Simple, intuitive principles that make sense, don't fly in the face of empirical reality, are accessible and effective and verifiable without the need for years of disciplined study, advanced intellectual capabilities and the need to make a complete fool of oneself. That'd be a start.

 

Besides, I'm implicitly willing to be convinced that it's not BS. I even suspect it may not be BS. I'm looking for something to hang my hat on, that's all.

 

You guys never talk specifics. I assume you are talking about meditating your way to some sort of altered state in which you may or may not have some kind of transcendent experience of the divine which may or may not be reproducible at will, but I really don't know. You'd have to tell me :-)

[Rev R]

Speaking only for myself -- quite a lot actually.

I think you might be surprised.

 

We are not talking about the overhead of moment to moment living, but how to invest scarce resources of time, energy and heart that are not consumed by that, in things that will, hopefully , make moment to moment living more compelling.

the two activities are the same

 

Simple, intuitive principles that make sense, don't fly in the face of empirical reality, are accessible and effective and verifiable without the need for years of disciplined study, advanced intellectual capabilities and the need to make a complete fool of oneself. That'd be a start.

hmmm...

 

ok

 

sit!

breathe!

 

 

You guys never talk specifics.

I can't speak for AMan, but I'm not extremely comfortable speaking about such things here. It's not because of any fear of critique, it is because the more specific I may get, the more likely it is that I will be preaching "Zen" and that would require actively encouraging the development of meditation practice. It doesn't seem fair to me to be doing that where people are in the process of cleansing Christianity from their minds.

 

 

I assume you are talking about meditating your way to some sort of altered state in which you may or may not have some kind of transcendent experience of the divine which may or may not be reproducible at will, but I really don't know. You'd have to tell me :-)

 

No. Allowing the mind to settle, that is all. It does take effort and discipline.

 

[DesertBob]

We are not talking about the overhead of moment to moment living, but how to invest scarce resources of time, energy and heart that are not consumed by that, in things that will, hopefully , make moment to moment living more compelling.

the two activities are the same

If you say so.

hmmm...

 

ok

 

sit!

breathe!

Thank you. I was turning blue until you said that.

You guys never talk specifics.

I can't speak for AMan, but I'm not extremely comfortable speaking about such things here. It's not because of any fear of critique, it is because the more specific I may get, the more likely it is that I will be preaching "Zen" and that would require actively encouraging the development of meditation practice. It doesn't seem fair to me to be doing that where people are in the process of cleansing Christianity from their minds.

Fair enough. I agree we don't want to turn this into a forum for promoting any particular practice, although I do think it's fair game to discuss how people work out their practical lives absent Christian tenets. Particularly when it involves things that aren't inherently theistic to embrace.

I assume you are talking about meditating your way to some sort of altered state in which you may or may not have some kind of transcendent experience of the divine which may or may not be reproducible at will, but I really don't know. You'd have to tell me :-)

No. Allowing the mind to settle, that is all. It does take effort and discipline.

 

I don't object to any activity where reward exceeds effort invested in some reasonable time frame. We may or may not agree on a definition of "reasonable" in this case. My doctor wants me to exercise. My customer wants me make a separate flight out west to meet him because he's busy moving his yacht to San Diego the week I'm going to be in town anyway. My fiance thinks it'd be great for me to develop more of a social life. My piano instructor wants me to devote more time to practice. Hospice wants more volunteer hours out of me. Most days I have to just pick whether to be judged for being out of shape, out of town, too underfoot, too untalented, or too undedicated.

 

Meditation represents an opportunity for me to be judged for thinking too much -- one of the few activities in my life that isn't normally thankless. People pay me embarrassing hourly rates specifically to think. So forgive me if I'm not over the moon at the prospect. Thinking is the one thing in my life that Just Works ™. Now I'm supposed to give that up for Lent? Nah.

 

Some days I gotta wonder ... why isn't it okay to just be me? With my thoughts, my likes, my dislikes? Why are people always standing in line with plans to change me, reform my habits, and change my priorities? Why is all the effort I have put into my life for over a half century not enough? Does it ever end? They just keep coming, like night of the living dead. No, ya know what ... I'm probably going to just sleep this off but right now, my feeling is, screw any more supplicating, hat in hand, to yet another technique or process. It's about time for something to come to me for a change.

 

I'm sure you won't take this personally, being as you're Zen and all. I guess the teacher doesn't appear because the student isn't ready ;-)

 

Seriously, though, thanks for the discussion, Rev R.

[Legion]

I also highly value thinking. But those few brief moments when my mind let go of its obsessive effort to anticipate everything were pleasant experiences. I don't fault my mind though. Its job is to anticipate.

[Antlerman]

I don't object to any activity where reward exceeds effort invested in some reasonable time frame. We may or may not agree on a definition of "reasonable" in this case. My doctor wants me to exercise. My customer wants me make a separate flight out west to meet him because he's busy moving his yacht to San Diego the week I'm going to be in town anyway. My fiance thinks it'd be great for me to develop more of a social life. My piano instructor wants me to devote more time to practice. Hospice wants more volunteer hours out of me. Most days I have to just pick whether to be judged for being out of shape, out of town, too underfoot, too untalented, or too undedicated.

 

Meditation represents an opportunity for me to be judged for thinking too much -- one of the few activities in my life that isn't normally thankless. People pay me embarrassing hourly rates specifically to think. So forgive me if I'm not over the moon at the prospect. Thinking is the one thing in my life that Just Works ™. Now I'm supposed to give that up for Lent? Nah.

Meditation is thinking? Actually the intention is the opposite. It's to get beyond thinking into the state of simple being in silence. And in that state is an access to what I would call "Life Itself", which is Being Itself. From that is a renewal of mind in perception, in attitude, and in action. Philosophy is thinking, meditation is being. Hence, "breathe".

 

Frankly, from everything I hear here and in the other post I was working on a response to, you sound like a prime candidate to practice something like that. Getting past looking at ourselves through the eyes of mental constructs imposed upon us by our worlds; your doctor, your client, your fiancee, your job, etc, and opening into the Self behind and beyond what we perceive as "me", is to begin to affect a permanent transformation that allows us to become more than the sum of those parts, more than the constructed "I".

 

Some days I gotta wonder ... why isn't it okay to just be me?

Exactly. Who are you? How do you find that?

 

With my thoughts, my likes, my dislikes?

And these define you? Are these the same thoughts as you had as a child; the same likes, the sames dislikes?

 

Why are people always standing in line with plans to change me, reform my habits, and change my priorities?

Because humans are social creatures and we use pressure to get others to conform to norms to give stability to these structures we use to create our sense of reality so we can live in something stable. Is all this "reality"? What is before all of that? What is beyond all of that? Can we experience what that is? Can we gain insights and knowledge from that?

 

Why is all the effort I have put into my life for over a half century not enough?

Is it for you? If it is, I can't see why you find any interest at all in any discussions like this, nor any of the things you've tried looking into in your life. My personal sense is simply existing, being defined as your particular cog in the machine is hardly satisfying to you.

 

No, ya know what ... I'm probably going to just sleep this off but right now, my feeling is, screw any more supplicating, hat in hand, to yet another technique or process. It's about time for something to come to me for a change.

Excellent. That's the first step. The secret is it isn't anything you have to find out there, merely expose, or allow from within. Access that however you will. It's already there.

 

 

To note: I'm not advocating any path or discipline or any such thing. All I am saying is that in an openness beyond all our systems, there is being beyond it. The systems are all various ways to access that, with varying degrees of successes and limitations. Constructed realities are reality for that stage, for that support, to the many areas of our lives, socially, mentally, emotionally, culturally, etc. These define surface structures for practical existence. But who are we? For me, accessing That, is "Life Itself", and there are many ways to touch that to varying degrees of depth. From that Source flows Life. It is not complex, but simplicity itself in infinite depth. The complexity is to try to talk about it in rational terms. Being it, is not. It is beyond rationality, embracing and transcending it.

[DesertBob]

Meditation is thinking? Actually the intention is the opposite. It's to get beyond thinking into the state of simple being in silence. And in that state is an access to what I would call "Life Itself", which is Being Itself. From that is a renewal of mind in perception, in attitude, and in action. Philosophy is thinking, meditation is being. Hence, "breathe".

I think you misunderstood me. I understand that meditation is not-thinking. Thinking however is my stock in trade. It's the only reliable tool I have. My objection to meditation is that it is, in so far as I understand it, antithetical to what I perceive as the only successful and rewarding method of engaging the world that I have ever known.

Frankly, from everything I hear here and in the other post I was working on a response to, you sound like a prime candidate to practice something like that. Getting past looking at ourselves through the eyes of mental constructs imposed upon us by our worlds; your doctor, your client, your fiancee, your job, etc, and opening into the Self behind and beyond what we perceive as "me", is to begin to affect a permanent transformation that allows us to become more than the sum of those parts, more than the constructed "I".

I can get past it. They for the most part cannot. When my wife died it came to me that I had always been someone's son, father, spouse, contractor -- I took the time to just be me. That I was the last man standing was almost a benefit. It was great, but after a year or so I found that it was also empty to know myself and for that self to have no meaningful interactions. So I followed my heart back to human society. I find that I am stronger to push back now, but I still have to push back, and I think I'm getting too old for that shit. I'm ambivalent about it at any rate. There is also the problem of the decay of the physical body to contend with. In about a week I will park a CPAP device on my face in order to be able to sleep in the same bed with someone else, and I will probably pay that price for the rest of my life. I find this annoying on a good day and depressing on a bad one. It very nearly defeats the purpose. And it's only the beginning.

 

So I am more than what others see me as or want to manipulate me into being, more than the guy with the space alien on his face at night, and yet, I cannot escape these things for the most part either, unless I want to live in a hermitage. And the solution to this is ... to breath in a certain way? Look, I just want to be happy and not have it be complicated. And you're suggesting that I pay attention to my autonomic functions?

Exactly. Who are you? How do you find that?

I am not really looking for it. I am still developing a better intuitive sense of it I suppose, but I now know essentially who and what I am. But it's kind of pointless because in most given moments I can't really fully be me and still meet the often conflicting needs of others, or even of my own body. I need a good hot shower and a nap right now, for instance, but it isn't going to happen because I have certain work that has to be done, piano practice, and then my fiance will be available to interact with around the time I am more or less cross eyed and depleted from all that. The essential problem of existence is that it isn't about me (pretty much refuses to be about me!), so I make it about people that I care about ... but then they have a nasty habit of being sick or dead or upset about something that would otherwise be extraneous to my existence or needs.

And these define you? Are these the same thoughts as you had as a child; the same likes, the sames dislikes?

What does it matter that they have changed? They've changed mostly because I have redefined myself to accommodate the demands of others and of life anyway. I've had to professionally reinvent myself 3 or 4 times as I stand under the firehose of technological progress. I've had to personally reinvent myself 3 or 4 times as I stand under the firehose of human experience. That I have been unwillingly subjected to this necessity doesn't mean that I am not basically who I have always been. More mature and aware, hopefully, but there is a relatively immutable core that makes Bob, Bob. Bob simply has to reveal himself in different ways at different times, like bolting a new user interface onto some software -- but the underlying libraries and object graph remains unchanged.

 

However, my point is not that my thoughts and preferences define me. It's that there is nothing wrong with them and they are worthy of respect. Why do you think Rodney Dangerfield resonated so much with his "I tell ya I don't get any respect" line? Every one of us would like to just be sufficient as-is, to some core of beings we care about and not just to ourselves. That is all. Very simple. And very impossible, apparently. The universe itself passes through me like an arrow on its way to wherever it is going. It often finds me in its way, and it matters not.

Why are people always standing in line with plans to change me, reform my habits, and change my priorities?

Because humans are social creatures and we use pressure to get others to conform to norms to give stability to these structures we use to create our sense of reality so we can live in something stable. Is all this "reality"? What is before all of that? What is beyond all of that? Can we experience what that is? Can we gain insights and knowledge from that?

The fact that those people throughout human history with the time and energy to devote to those questions can't agree on an answer does not encourage me.

 

All your philosophical system says to me is, yes, Bob, reality is unsatisfactory in the ways you've pointed out, so my answer is to deny that reality and refuse to allow it to move me. Instead I will be moved by this other system that, while for some strange reason not manifestly obvious in my daily life, is accessible through a special state of mind, which allows me to "see" what is really real, even though I'm not really seeing it and most of my fellow man is not seeing it. How is this different from religion, other than that there's not a personal god in the picture? Didn't I just spend a couple of decades prying all that shit out of my head with a crowbar?

Why is all the effort I have put into my life for over a half century not enough?

Is it for you? If it is, I can't see why you find any interest at all in any discussions like this, nor any of the things you've tried looking into in your life. My personal sense is simply existing, being defined as your particular cog in the machine is hardly satisfying to you.

I am not sure I follow the question. I feel the effort I've put in is or at least should have been more than sufficient, yet mostly invisible to anyone but myself. That's the tension. And no, I am not sure why I find any interest at all myself. Probably too cussed to just bag it, I suppose. Also, what choice does anyone have? If you choose to live, then you have to keep engaging the questions.

Excellent. That's the first step. The secret is it isn't anything you have to find out there, merely expose, or allow from within. Access that however you will. It's already there.

 

To note: I'm not advocating any path or discipline or any such thing. All I am saying is that in an openness beyond all our systems, there is being beyond it. The systems are all various ways to access that, to varying degrees of successes and limitations. Constructed realities are reality for that stage, for that support, to the many areas of our lives, socially, mentally, emotionally, culturally, etc. These do not define us. Who are we? For me, accessing that, is Life Itself, and there are many ways to touch that to varying degrees of depth. And from that source flows life. It is not complex, but simplicity itself in limitless depth. The complexity is to try to talk about it. Being it, is not.

Okay, then I am already doing that. I am feeling my way to whatever, if anything, is beyond the systems. My guess is that what is beyond all this is oblivion that I will find at the clearing at the end of the path someday. Anything else will be frosting on the whole ridiculous cake.

 

For the record, I don't find life to be a rational proposition that any sane person would accept, given full knowledge of all the facts in advance. I am willing to change that assessment, but I need an actual reason to do so, that's all. Everything up to now points to life as an indignity -- and I am thinking mostly here about what I observe in the lives of others, since I certainly am biased about my own life. As examples, both of my wives, and to a lesser extent both of my children, have suffered great indignities, utter disrespect of their right to life, liberty, and a fair shot at happiness. I've given up despairing about all that and let it go, because I can do them and myself no good by holding onto the grief or continuing to care about all that water over the dam. They were just water over the dam in an impersonal universe, after all. They weren't even being picked on; if I took any random person I met and got to know them well enough I would touch the bitterness of their experience just as well.

 

In times of desperation you will try anything, no matter how ridiculous, that holds out the slightest hope of relief. I, like many others, have now been driven to the point where nothing is desperate because everything is priced in. I am shopping for an engagement ring again, with the full knowledge, yea, even the expectation, that it will end badly for one of us. One of us will throw a rod and leave the other bereft, sooner or later. I love her enough to subject myself to that yet again and take whatever quality time -- decades, years, months, days, hours -- we can manage to wrest away from what's left of our lives. How different that is from how I approached my first or even second marriage. I find it kind of pathetic, really. But it's a choiceless choice. The lady, or the tiger. Behind the lady is a tiger anyway, whether you meditate it away or not.

[Antlerman]

Meditation is thinking? Actually the intention is the opposite. It's to get beyond thinking into the state of simple being in silence. And in that state is an access to what I would call "Life Itself", which is Being Itself. From that is a renewal of mind in perception, in attitude, and in action. Philosophy is thinking, meditation is being. Hence, "breathe".

I think you misunderstood me. I understand that meditation is not-thinking. Thinking however is my stock in trade. It's the only reliable tool I have. My objection to meditation is that it is, in so far as I understand it, antithetical to what I perceive as the only successful and rewarding method of engaging the world that I have ever known.

Not to sound trite, but then that is where you are. For myself, I likewise find thinking as reliable and necessary, as opposed to shutting off the mind and moving blindly on faith and emotions. But I have found there is more. That is is reliable to answer certain questions, but not the vehicle to open us to what lays beyond it for us. The ceiling of the gods didn't define the height of understand, and nor does reason, even though both provided successful and rewarding methods of engaging the world people have ever known. It is still, a system built surrounding a certain evolved realization, a perception of *reality*.

 

So I am more than what others see me as or want to manipulate me into being, more than the guy with the space alien on his face at night, and yet, I cannot escape these things for the most part either, unless I want to live in a hermitage. And the solution to this is ... to breath in a certain way? Look, I just want to be happy and not have it be complicated. And you're suggesting that I pay attention to my autonomic functions?

I don't believe I said anything about paying attention to your breath (as some form of meditative practice). I simply said "breathe". Behind that is a whole world of meaning that conveys some of what I'm trying to say. To breathe, suggest emptying you mind off all these thoughts that whirl about, who well tell ourselves who we are, who we think we are, what we need to do, what we think of others, what we think others think or want of us, round and round, etc. These do not define us. Being outside that does. To breathe, in this sense is to simply take the world in without though, as it is, undefined. Void. Simply its Nature, our Nature in it, in us. All preconceptions aside, all conceptions aside, nothing but simple life in how we can in our bodies - breathe. Clear the mind. That is all I meant.

 

And from that, you can choose to go deeper within, or simply drink a cool drink to temporarily be outside all that crap. I'm saying that as we begin to find that who we are, our essence, our being, is vital and existent outside that, there is a gain to perspective, thought, attitude, and actions. It can be no more involved that that. We create worlds in our minds, you create worlds in your mind, which you have been expressing throughout these posts. They are your perceptions. They define reality to you. But at any given moment, an event, and experience, a thought, can alter reality for us - and our experience of it.

 

I know what it is to be resigned. I know cynicism. I know pessimism. I also know the reality of other, very grounded, solid, and rewarding perceptions. It is no delusion, and no escapism. It is life though valid eyes. And for me, it all simply came down to choice. That choice was driven by a certain existential Will within me, which I can call many things. Frowning on the day, was not living; finding a safe equilibrium was not either. It really seriously all begins or ends with choice. The rest is all means to that end that lies within.

 

Exactly. Who are you? How do you find that?

I am not really looking for it. I am still developing a better intuitive sense of it I suppose, but I now know essentially who and what I am. But it's kind of pointless because in most given moments I can't really fully be me and still meet the often conflicting needs of others, or even of my own body.

I think the goal is to be fully centered no matter what the environment, always be in our center. How does that happen? How do we find that place? Those are the questions, that is it goal. Is it through reasoning your way there? I don't think so.

 

The essential problem of existence is that it isn't about me (pretty much refuses to be about me!), so I make it about people that I care about ... but then they have a nasty habit of being sick or dead or upset about something that would otherwise be extraneous to my existence or needs.

You are correct that it isn't about you. Making it about others, is not going to work either (obviously!). How I see things, is that is about moving beyond yourself, through yourself. Not denying yourself. You first must find your center, and through that, that "that" will flow out to others as natural response. That is entirely different that denying yourself. Your true Self, will become others, as you will see no distinction. It's a process of growth from narcissism, to a fully realized self.

 

More mature and aware, hopefully, but there is a relatively immutable core that makes Bob, Bob. Bob simply has to reveal himself in different ways at different times, like bolting a new user interface onto some software -- but the underlying libraries and object graph remains unchanged.

I think there is a different from meeting demands and expressing your being though genuine actions. I understand demands of life, and it is quite true they can become a drain to it. Your right. It is about prioritizes and returns on investment. In all things.

[Antlerman]

The universe itself passes through me like an arrow on its way to wherever it is going. It often finds me in its way, and it matters not.

You are the universe. Interesting how you see it outside of you and you outside of it.

 

The fact that those people throughout human history with the time and energy to devote to those questions can't agree on an answer does not encourage me.

You're looking for answers from without. These are not questions for science or reason. They are about glimpses, not apprehension.

 

All your philosophical system says to me is, yes, Bob, reality is unsatisfactory in the ways you've pointed out, so my answer is to deny that reality and refuse to allow it to move me.

It's not a philosophical system. I honestly wouldn't know what to call myself. I'm not saying reality in a rational world space is unsatisfactory. Not at all. For me, I'm moved to more. For others, its where they are rewarded. This is fine. My only challenge with you, is in what I hear as a certain resignation and pessimism. Whether or not you care to take some inward journey into other spaces is entirely something that should begin and end from within yourself, not from me or any teacher telling you "the way". I do hear however what I personally relate very closely to in my own difficult past, laced with pain and loss. I understand it well, and the alternative to it isn't necessarily become some Zen monk or something. Not at all. I'm not. Nor is it necessarily going where I go in my thoughts. But embracing being from a perspective that breathes life into you, is important no matter how you understand the ultimate nature of being itself.

 

In times of desperation you will try anything, no matter how ridiculous, that holds out the slightest hope of relief.

I am well aware of the drive to deny reality. I've been there. This is for me, embracing reality in a fuller measure.

 

 

Now it sounds like I'm being preachy and certainly don't mean to do that. I want to offer a clear response to hopefully communicate what is really being said. Not to convince you into this or that. Your road, is your road.

[Rev R]

Thank you. I was turning blue until you said that.

Heh.

 

Some days I gotta wonder ... why isn't it okay to just be me?

 

Now this question interests me. Who says it isn't ok to just be you? Who else could you possibly be?

 

I think we all have feelings like this from time to time. It's one of the downs on the roller coaster that is human experience, but like all things (and you know this already) it fades.

 

I guess the teacher doesn't appear because the student isn't ready.

 

Maybe. Then again, maybe the student is ready but looking for a good teacher. Let me know if you find one.

 

 

Seriously, though, thanks for the discussion, Rev R.

anytime Bob.

[DesertBob]

You are the universe. Interesting how you see it outside of you and you outside of it.

Actually I see myself as inside the universe, not outside. Trapped inside, in fact.

 

If I am the universe than I am a masochist.

...embracing being from a perspective that breathes life into you, is important no matter how you understand the ultimate nature of being itself.

Yes, I suppose I am searching for a different perspective, because my current one isn't working across the board and has too many dependencies on things outside the scope of my control or influence.

I am well aware of the drive to deny reality. I've been there. This is for me, embracing reality in a fuller measure.

 

Now it sounds like I'm being preachy and certainly don't mean to do that. I want to offer a clear response to hopefully communicate what is really being said. Not to convince you into this or that. Your road, is your road.

No, actually you are not coming across to me as preachy or trying to convince me of anything, and you're very respectful of my road. We're good.

 

You are also clear, or as clear as circumstances appear to permit. I even think that from your perspective I'm on the right track. I do try to be quiet within myself and allow life to pass through me and let it be what it wants to be -- with varying levels of success. It even pays some rewards now and then. I do this because I don't seriously think I have any viable alternatives, however, and I don't feel I'm transcending things so much as not bothering to react to or engage with them on their terms. If there is something within myself that has been there all along that results in a fundamental shift of perspective, I have yet to find it, but hopefully I am at least positioned to it and open to it. Not much else I can do.

[DesertBob]

Now this question interests me. Who says it isn't ok to just be you?

Certainly not me. Some days it seems that the totality of life as it comes to me, is all about altering me without consulting me about it, as if I have no stake in the matter. I think it's fair to say that the bottom line thus far has amounted to that. Sometimes I'm actually grateful that I didn't get what I (thought I) wanted; other times not so much. But what the hey ... happens to us all. I certainly don't claim to be picked on. Only disappointed that it's late enough in the game that I'm forced to completely let go of more than I'd care to. Vestiges, I suppose, of the youthful ideation that my life would somehow be exempt from all that.

 

I think people tend, early in their lives, to be motivated by visions that dance in their heads of how things are going to be thanks to their fresh, wonderful ideas and boundless energy. At some point you figure out that (1) you're as much of a fuck up as everyone else and (2) you're out of gas and therefore (3) you need to lower your expectations.

 

Thanks to religion (or more accurately, to my willing acquiescence to it) my grand visions were perhaps more idealistic and grandiose than some. I'll get over it. I always do :-)