Aren't We Better Than This?

[Looking4Answers]

I want to start this rant by saying, I am so very glad that I found this web site and forum. The people here have been a wonderful help to me and were there when it seemed like no one else was. Thank you, one and all.

 

Having said that, I do have a rant that has been sort of coming to the surface as I daily read through this forum. The rant is basically: Aren't we better than this?

 

I see all kinds of threads popping up here and there talking about how stupid Christians are, how foolish they are and how ridiculous their beliefs are. In some cases, no punches are pulled and people freely speak their minds allowing a lot of bitterness and vitriol to ooze to the surface in their posts. But is this really necessary? And, as I said before, aren't we better than this?

 

I would like to ask people to think about this for a moment. For people that believe in Christ ... I mean REALLY believe in him ... they LOVE Christ very, very much. When they come to a web site like this they only get angry and this only goes to further fuel their own preconceived ideas that atheists and agnostics are a bunch of ravenous dogs. Let's imagine for a moment that you stumble across a web site and the entire site is dedicated to talking about how terrible your wife or husband is ... how rotten your children are ... and how foolish and stupid you are for being involved in a relationship with any of them. If you honestly, truly loved your wife/husband/kids, then you would most likely be outraged and would not listen to any truth on the web site. So what good does the vitriol serve?

 

Secondly, most of us here were Christians at one point and time in our lives. That is why this web site is called "ex-Chrsitan" and not something else. I don't know about you, but I am not stupid. When we call Christians stupid, then aren't some of those fingers pointing back at us? You might say, "Yeah, but we left all that ... because we aren't stupid. They stay and that means they must be stupid!" I would disagree. I know many people within Christian circles. Frankly, most of them are not stupid at all. In fact, I have met some incredibly brilliant people. And not all Christians are fools, either. They may not yet see the truth concerning the Bible and all of that, but this does not make them fools.

 

The truth is, as far as I am concerned, that Christians are people, just like anyone else. As such, among their ranks there are good people and bad, smart and, yes, stupid ones, too. There are also foolish people there, but also some very wise people as well. I don't personally like the box that they are all thrown in just because they have believed things that are not true. How many of us, at some point in our lives, have believed things that are not true? We may have acted foolishly, but were we really fools? We may have, from time to time, acted stupidly, but are we stupid?

 

I guess what I am saying is that perhaps we should try better to be more considerate to others. I am not saying that we need to condescend to their beliefs. But Christians are people and, as a result, are deserving of the same dignity that each and every one of us deserves. And, if we know the truth concerning the Bible and the god of the Bible, then perhaps we would do better to behave better instead of fueling their own fires by verbally proving their point that we are a bunch of angry people.

 

Now, I also know that many of us here have been hurt by Christians or by the Christian faith. Don't I know this! Haven't I also experienced this and, in fact, am in the midst of experiencing this even now? Some of us have had attempts to ruin our names because we left the faith. Some of lost spouses and children as a result of their decision to not remain in Christianity. Many of us feel robbed of the years of our lives that we devoted to this faith. I understand that. Believe me. However, does this give us license to strike back like this?

 

Not everyone here is like this. I understand that. I certainly did not go through and count posts to see if it is a majority or minority. But that is not the issue. The issue, for me, is simply rising above the situation and being the better person. Argue the point ... YES! Stand your ground ... YES! Show them the error of their ways ... YES! But this can be done without telling someone they are an idiot, a fool or stupid.

 

Obviously, this is just my opinion. Perhaps I will get flack for posting this. I don't know. But it was on my mind for the past few days and, frankly, I wanted to get it off my chest.

 

Thank you.

[Ouroboros]

Having said that, I do have a rant that has been sort of coming to the surface as I daily read through this forum. The rant is basically: Aren't we better than this?

 

I see all kinds of threads popping up here and there talking about how stupid Christians are, how foolish they are and how ridiculous their beliefs are. In some cases, no punches are pulled and people freely speak their minds allowing a lot of bitterness and vitriol to ooze to the surface in their posts. But is this really necessary? And, as I said before, aren't we better than this?

Of course we are.

 

However... where would a person go who feels the irritation, and need to let some of the steam out go? Should we start another website, where we would allow people who just want to let their emotions out and feelings about Christianity come to surface, instead of this one? We could start one, and we could call it: Ex-Christians.net (oh, that's taken already), or maybe Rant-at-Christians.com maybe would be more fitting.

 

You see, I do understand your feeling and thought about this, but on the other hand, if you want to let people have a place where they could go and freely speak their minds when they feel the frustration building up, what other website would there be?

 

Lets say we did put a lid on these things, and that we put a policy in place were we wouldn't allow people to speak these emotions against Christianity, how many would come here, and how many would stay? I think part of the process for many is to be able to speak their minds and even go too far in their criticism of Christianity, because it's part of the healing process. Maybe you haven't come to that point yet, but if you do one day, would you want to come here to express those feelings or to another website?

 

I see this question coming up over and over again, and I think it stems from a misunderstanding of human emotions and need. We are all different, and we all have different needs, and we all have different ways of expressing ourselves, and some have to let their thoughts out even if some others are offended, because they maybe grew up in a situation where they were never allowed to speak their thoughts or ideas at all. So when you ask them to calm down and stop their rants, you are judging them according to your view of life and your experience. Please, take a breather, think about this for a little bit. There are people from cults here. There are people who where oppressed their whole life. Some where sexually abused. Some have mental problems as a result. Some grew up in a setting where no electronics or electricity was allowed and have very poor social skills. Some have very bad writing skills. Some aren't even American! So do you really feel you have the right to judge them and dictate their behavior or needs, solely based on your own experience and view on life? I don't think you do. I know we all do (including me) at times, but I think also that you should be aware of this problem, and start to consider that we have people from every corner of the world and every kind of social background.

 

To give you a little addition to the view I can tell you about myself a few years ago. When I first joined here, I got into a debate with a member who was quite often very angry and expressed very strong opinions towards Christians, and I was just like you, I questioned her anger and bitterness, but in the discussion I realized that she had every right to be angry. There's nothing in nature or life that dictates that "anger" as such is neither good or bad. According to Aristotle anger can be beneficial and destructive, and it's a matter of using it wisely. The golden mean is when you use anger at the right time, for the right reason, and in the right way. And she needed this outlet for her emotions. To have subdued her emotions would not have benefited anyone, but only pushed her further away from this group. From what I remember she was sexually abused during her Christian years, and it had grown into a lot of aggression against all that Christianity stands for. Maybe she needed help? Maybe the help for her would be to express those emotions and anger? Should a therapist tell their patients to shut up, bit together, and just tough it out? Don't think so. This place is to a certain degree a therapeutic place, and as such we have to allow certain freedom of expression.

 

And another point I want to make is that we constantly get new members here, who just recently de-converted, and to somehow tell them they don't have the right to be angry, is placing an unnecessary burden on them to fit into the same "good behavior" Christianity they just left behind. We have to allow these new members a somewhat free room to let it out.

 

But with that said, of course there are limits, but they're very subjective and applied depending on situation, but in general, there's nothing "good" about being "nice." Especially if the person comes from an abusive background.

 

I hope this didn't come out too harsh on you, but I've seen this several times and I'm still trying to find a way to convey how we can maintain tolerance towards differences in a group of this level of disparity.

[Emme]

I don't think christians have to be stupid. My family is christian and they are educated, intelligent, sensible etc. I don't agree with their beliefs and their actions upset me sometimes, but I don't think that they are fundamentally stupid. Plus, I was a christian myself once.

 

I think you have a point. A person does not have to be stupid just because he/she is religous. I think most people would agree on that.

 

About the bitterness and rage, I don't know what to think. Is it that bad? Maybe this is the only place for some people to vent and let everything out. Hopefully, after a few good rants, the anger will subside. I know I don't feel angry, but maybe that's because I was allowed to share my feelings when I came here a year ago. I'll have to think about it.

 

It's tricky. Of course I wouldn't want to be intolerant or thought of as an angry mobster, but on the other hand I don't want to walk on eggshells eighter.

[florduh]

No, at times we aren't better than this. It depends on how much damage has been or still is being inflicted by well-meaning Christians.

 

As I understand it, this is a safe place to rant, rave and let off steam. Some cope in this way, some don't.

 

Should a believer encroach on our "bitching area" they get what they deserve as far as I'm concerned.

[Deva]

I see all kinds of threads popping up here and there talking about how stupid Christians are, how foolish they are and how ridiculous their beliefs are. In some cases, no punches are pulled and people freely speak their minds allowing a lot of bitterness and vitriol to ooze to the surface in their posts. But is this really necessary? And, as I said before, aren't we better than this?

 

Personally I don't think Christians are stupid on the whole, but I think some of their beliefs are downright foolish and I have this site to freely speak my mind about it.

 

We have every right to express our anger and bitterness if we choose to do so. This site exists for the support of ex-christians, not to placate Christians and tell them the stupid ideas that they have been brainwashed into have merit.

[pitchu]

For people that believe in Christ ... I mean REALLY believe in him ... they LOVE Christ very, very much. When they come to a web site like this they only get angry and this only goes to further fuel their own preconceived ideas that atheists and agnostics are a bunch of ravenous dogs.

 

L4A, this site wasn't created for xians, or to help xians, or to give a good impression of ourselves to xians. It's a site where all (meaning all) issues, questions, feelings which need to be expressed and/or examined by people who've left xianity can be expressed and examined safely.

 

If any xian comes here and reads only expressions of vitriol, neglecting to read the Testimonies or any of the tons of other stuff of all sorts; neglecting to be curious to try to find out why there would be such vitriol expressed by those who've left the faith, then goes off in a huff... well... all I can say is that's what many of us have learned to expect from xians.

[Looking4Answers]

I really do appreciate the replies here. And, frankly, I did not do a search to see if anyone had brought this up before. I will try to explain myself better (if possible).

 

First of all, I never meant to imply that people should not rant. I am ranting, aren't I? I just would hope that people could try to be more constructive with their rants. For example, I could start a thread claiming that all Christians are absolutely stupid or I could start a thread ranting about the problems with the Christian religion itself. One would be seen as an attack on the person (i.e. calling Christians stupid) and the other an attack (or possibly a critique) on the religion itself. While the second can still offend, it offends differently.

 

Secondly, I do understand that there are people here from various backgrounds and from various countries. I, myself, have lived in a few countries (the Philippines and Israel), have lived in many of the states here in the USA (north, south, east and west) and have been in a cult-like church. So I have a bit of understanding. Many of you here know my story. However, while I am angry, fed up and mad at the things that are still going on around me as a result of my decision to leave the faith, I don't believe it is proper to try to take out my anger on others.

 

I am certainly not asking anyone here to put a lid on anything. People should certainly be allowed to speak their mind. But we all know that HOW an idea is presented is as important as the idea itself. People can rant without being overly offensive. There are examples of both on this forum. I might think that someone's child has mental deficiencies. I could go to them and say, "Man! Your kid is an idiot!" How well received would that be?

 

So, you see, I was not asking anyone to keep a lid on their rants, their emotions or any such thing. I certainly was not trying to tell anyone that they should not speak their mind. I was just thinking out loud that the same thoughts, the same emotions, could be conveyed in a more constructive manner. Many here are people who use their minds. They reasoned through the faith they were in and found their way out. That took both guts and brains! Now, why not use those same wonderful minds to post a better rant?

 

In any case, this thread has been helpful to me. You see, I ranted and it helped . But I am also learning more about the purpose of this web site. It is indeed a place for those of us who have been harmed by Christianity to vent. While I have been doing that here for months, I have not really thought about that as a purpose for this web site.

[bdp]

Anger - rage - was certainly a necessary phase for me and I'm glad this place was here for me to vent it in. I personally don't feel the need to rip the head off every Christian who pops up here anymore, but I also understand the need for others to do so. I am what I am, sometimes better but probably oftener not.

[Looking4Answers]

Personally I don't think Christians are stupid on the whole, but I think some of their beliefs are downright foolish and I have this site to freely speak my mind about it.

 

We have every right to express our anger and bitterness if we choose to do so. This site exists for the support of ex-christians, not to placate Christians and tell them the stupid ideas that they have been brainwashed into have merit.

 

I agree. We all have every right to express our anger and bitterness if we choose to do so. Please read my original post again. Did I ever say that people did not? Did I try to tell someone to put a lid on it? I believe what I was getting at was being better by communicating better. Calling someone a fool or stupid is just asking for a fight. You did not do this in your post (quoted above). You said that their beliefs are foolish and that they have been brainwashed by stupid ideas. That, to me, is quite a bit different than stating that the PERSON Is stupid or that the PERSON is a fool.

 

Now, don't get me wrong ... there ARE stupid and foolish people. And there are, in my opinion, even times to point that out to them.

[Looking4Answers]

L4A, this site wasn't created for xians, or to help xians, or to give a good impression of ourselves to xians. It's a site where all (meaning all) issues, questions, feelings which need to be expressed and/or examined by people who've left xianity can be expressed and examined safely.

 

Yep. I realize that. As I have said several times, I am not against the expression of people's feelings. However, those same feelings can be expressed in a more constructive way (IMO).

 

If any xian comes here and reads only expressions of vitriol, neglecting to read the Testimonies or any of the tons of other stuff of all sorts; neglecting to be curious to try to find out why there would be such vitriol expressed by those who've left the faith, then goes off in a huff... well... all I can say is that's what many of us have learned to expect from xians.

 

While I understand what you are saying, I wonder if the tables were turned if any of us would try to find out why people were so angry. For example, if I went to a Christian web site and saw all kinds of posts with anger and bitterness toward unbelievers, would I try to scan through the forum to find out what is making these people so angry? Or would I just go to another web site and be glad to have left the place? Because I do not believe in Christianity I would not even give their forum the light of day to even try to see why they are angry. I am guessing that many Christians would do the same here.

 

But, you have a point. And it is a good and valid one. This site is not for Christians. In this case, why should I really care? In a way, I don't. However, I still wonder if we would all be better served by thinking through our rants more and trying to be more constructive with them.

 

Again, I don't have an answer. I am exploring and, as pointed out, I am ranting as well .

[Looking4Answers]

Anger - rage - was certainly a necessary phase for me and I'm glad this place was here for me to vent it in. I personally don't feel the need to rip the head off every Christian who pops up here anymore, but I also understand the need for others to do so. I am what I am, sometimes better but probably oftener not.

 

I can totally understand. I deal with anger quite a lot and will do so for a long time to come, I suppose. I have lost my wife (so far), I may lose my kids and I have going through what feels like hell on earth at the moment. However, I still want to be sensitive to others and be the better person for it (if possible). I stand my ground. I don't cave in. But it doesn't mean I have to be loud and obnoxious as I do so (and, no, that comment was definitely NOT directed at you or anyone in particular).

[Mike D]

But is this really necessary? And, as I said before, aren't we better than this?

I don't know if it's necessary, but I admit it I do derive sort of a sadistic pleasure out of mocking and making fun of christianity and some of it's followers (mainly fundies). I think it's because when I was a Christian as a kid and a teenager I was mocked more than once by Christians.... because I questioned it. I was basically made to feel like I was either too "sinful", too unwilling or too stupid to be able to understand Christianity, and that's why lots of it didn't make any sense to me. But eventually I realized that the reason it didn't make any sense is because it really doesn't make any sense. So now I just can't help it... when someone is trying to push their irrational nonsensical beliefs on the rest of us, I am going to go at it if given the opportunity....

[Looking4Answers]

when someone is trying to push their irrational nonsensical beliefs on the rest of us, I am going to go at it if given the opportunity....

 

Now, this I certainly agree with. If a Christian were to come in here and try to evangelize, then why not debate him or her? If a JW comes to my door, then I would certainly have at it. However, (speaking for myself here) I would hope to not resort to simple name calling in the process. If the JW comes to my door, I would not just answer the door and say, "You know, you're an idiot!" (though I would be sorely tempted ).

[Ouroboros]

Now, this I certainly agree with. If a Christian were to come in here and try to evangelize, then why not debate him or her? If a JW comes to my door, then I would certainly have at it. However, (speaking for myself here) I would hope to not resort to simple name calling in the process. If the JW comes to my door, I would not just answer the door and say, "You know, you're an idiot!" (though I would be sorely tempted ).

Actually, I think you should try it. It's very liberating. And many actually deserve it. And many Christians are stupid, because they make themselves stupid. Willful ignorance, is the term, and it's true, and people do it. They refuse to look beyond what they want to believe.

 

You see, I have siblings who are very strongly Christian. All of them are brilliant. Very high IQ. But yet, when it comes to certain aspects of science and reality, their views are the most extreme and sillies, stupidest, ideas you can think of. One of my brothers invent things, and yet he believes "Jesus hold the planets in place, not gravity." No, seriously. That's what he thinks. And it's because he want's it to be true, not because there's evidence or any true argument for it, but only because he wants to have his mind clouded by religious zealotry. I'm sorry, but I think that is stupid.

 

And btw, is there any explanation to why it is "better" to be timid and shy, instead of enraged over mind-raping religious ideas perpetrated by willfully ignorant followers? I'm not sure why timidity, meekness, subordination, and servitude to religious ideas is "better" than to speak up and call it for what it is. Religion is in many cases stupid, and it should be call it. There's no need to beat around the bush and be polite and nice. Sometimes we need to sharpen our words and call it by its proper name.

[noob]

Hello, L4A! As I read your OP, my first reaction was to feel guilty. You see, I posted under Humor on Saturday and I made fun of the book, Christianity for Dummies. Of course, the post elicited a few responses that made fun of Christians. I started thinking perhaps it had been inappropriate. You see, I have been a people pleaser all of my life so right away… I felt wrong! However, as I read through the rest of the thread, it helped me realize that I’m using the humor to help myself with my deconversion. And, beyond that I am laughing at myself. I’m embarrassed that I was operating under such a ridiculous delusion for so long. When I first started reading Ex-C, I found myself shocked by the irreverent humor. But, it’s played a big role in helping me see how silly the whole religion thing really is.

 

After I got past the guilt, I found myself wondering how anyone could possibly read through this site and not pick up on the many positive aspects. For the most part, I find everyone very welcoming, warm, kind, accepting and supportive. As I read the testimonies and the responses I’m amazed at how many people are so encouraging and willing to offer newbies (noobs) the benefit of their deconversion experience.

 

And on a final note, there was something about your post that reminded me of how I felt I “should” behave as a Christian. I thought I should be a good example so I could lead others to believe the way I believed. (I wasn’t good at being a good example, I just thought I SHOULD be and I felt guilty because I wasn’t!) I don’t really think that is what you meant by this post, but somehow I just got that vibe. It seemed as if your past “preacher” persona was coming out and you were saying we should all play nicely and show those Christians how well-behaved we are.

 

Thanks for the post and for giving me an opportunity to keep learning and growing as I become comfortable in my new skin I'm not there yet... but I'm working on it!

[Deva]

Please read my original post again. Did I ever say that people did not? Did I try to tell someone to put a lid on it? I believe what I was getting at was being better by communicating better. Calling someone a fool or stupid is just asking for a fight. You did not do this in your post (quoted above). You said that their beliefs are foolish and that they have been brainwashed by stupid ideas. That, to me, is quite a bit different than stating that the PERSON Is stupid or that the PERSON is a fool.

 

Now, don't get me wrong ... there ARE stupid and foolish people. And there are, in my opinion, even times to point that out to them.

 

I did read it. You said;

 

I guess what I am saying is that perhaps we should try better to be more considerate to others. I am not saying that we need to condescend to their beliefs. But Christians are people and, as a result, are deserving of the same dignity that each and every one of us deserves. And, if we know the truth concerning the Bible and the god of the Bible, then perhaps we would do better to behave better instead of fueling their own fires by verbally proving their point that we are a bunch of angry people.

 

Fact of that matter is, some of us ARE angry. We were brainwashed as children and told a large number of lies, to which we wasted large portions of our lives. You are telling us to curb our behavior, unless I am entirely missing the point of the above paragraph. To me it IS saying "put a lid on it". I have been on this site for awhile and if you think its angry now, you should have seen it two years ago. What are you really complaining about? Our image as seen by Christians? Why should we care? Generally speaking the Christians we get on here just want to preach and shove their foolish ideas on us, which we have heard and rejected a million times. Civility can and does go out the window in the face of some of the real ignorance and stupidity I have seen displayed by the majority of our hit and run Christian trolls. I see no reason not to give them a frank and honest assessment of what we think of them and their behavior. Don't we have to put up with enough of this in silence in the real world?

 

Honestly, there have been a couple of occasions when I felt that a Christian or person of a different religion was not treated properly. I felt they came in an attempt to understand us and have an intelligent discussion and were driven away. But, I think I can count these people on one hand.

[PatrickB]

Sorry L4A!

 

I'm not going to pose for anybody. And typing angrily at my keyboard fucking everyone and every fucking thing has been more than tremendously helpful to me. I don't give a rat's ass fuck about making some sort of positive image of myself or anyone else who no longer believes in gawd. That's the way we get over things. Ok, not all of us, but it's a good thing as I see it. Go start a new ex-christian site called, exchristianbutnotbitterorangryandintelligentwithoutlosingonespatience.com or net or something.

[Looking4Answers]

And btw, is there any explanation to why it is "better" to be timid and shy, instead of enraged over mind-raping religious ideas perpetrated by willfully ignorant followers?

 

So, the only options we have are either being "timid" or being "enraged"? We can either be weak or assholes? I am fairly sure there is an in-between. I am also fairly sure that people can be angry and civil and that people can defend their position without belittling the other person.

 

And on a final note, there was something about your post that reminded me of how I felt I “should” behave as a Christian. I thought I should be a good example so I could lead others to believe the way I believed. (I wasn’t good at being a good example, I just thought I SHOULD be and I felt guilty because I wasn’t!) I don’t really think that is what you meant by this post, but somehow I just got that vibe. It seemed as if your past “preacher” persona was coming out and you were saying we should all play nicely and show those Christians how well-behaved we are.

 

Noob, I really want to thank you for your post. It was very eye-opening. I agree, 17+ years as a Christian and many years as a pastor and missionary have certainly influenced my thinking. I have only recently de-converted (back in late August). I do believe that you are correct! However, I still think that being civil is the best course of action. And I think that being civil, even when angry, is not a sign of being timid.

 

You see, I posted under Humor on Saturday and I made fun of the book, Christianity for Dummies.

 

Hey! I like the humor, too! I participate in it as well. Perhaps I am being hypocritical, but I see this as a bit different.

 

DevaLight,

 

I think I am just failing to communicate. Please forgive me. I truly did not mean to indicate that anyone should "put a lid on it". However, people (myself included) might want to type out their rant in Word (or whatever word processor they like ), save it, take a break and then read it again before posting it again. When I have remembered to do that, I often thought to myself, "Man! That was harsh! Let's try that again." Or sometimes, "That just did not sound right! Glad I didn't post that!"

 

I guess I am just advocating that some people think before posting. I am just as guilty in some cases.

 

I'm not going to pose for anybody.

 

PatrickB,

 

I'm not asking you to. It's not about posing. Its about being a human being ... about being civil. And that does not mean that people even have to be nice to one another all the time, either. When I talk to a client (I do graphics for a living) I don't just blurt out whatever is on my mind. This is not "posing". This is simply deciding what is best for the situation.

 

I don't give a rat's ass fuck about making some sort of positive image of myself or anyone else who no longer believes in gawd.

 

I didn't say that you (or anyone) has to care about anyone or anything. That is part of having a free mind. But we do live in a world where we need to interact (or chose to) with people. It is each person's choice how they decide to interact, but we can chose to do so in a way that is not offensive in and off itself. This does not mean that we can't deal with subjects that are offensive. We certainly can. But we can choose HOW we do it. I guess that is really what I have been trying to address in this thread.

 

Again, I think noob hit the nail on the head. I am still under "bondage" (so to speak) from my years as a pastor and missionary. HanSolo hit on this, too. So a lot of my impression about this subject may be very subjective. Like Han, I may look back a year from now and totally disagree with what I have been saying here.

 

In any case, I do appreciate all the posts here. They each give me something to think about.

[Dhampir]

So, the only options we have are either being "timid" or being "enraged"? We can either be weak or assholes? I am fairly sure there is an in-between. I am also fairly sure that people can be angry and civil and that people can defend their position without belittling the other person.

The question is why must we be? And make no mistake, what you pose as an observation and a request, is a demand, a requirement. That you have no power to enforce it is what causes you to express it in this manner.

 

I'll grant that plenty of members can be rude, abrasive, and in some cases downright abusive to proselytizing christians, and many of us are quite derisive of christian doctrine, and sometimes the ideas of other members. The question, again, is WHY does it have to be another way? A lot of members are raw, and need to lash out. They need to be mean, in a similar fashion that some scientists say that entertaining violent or malicious thoughts can be cathartic. Why must these people act in a different way than their needs compel them?

 

It's true that sometimes behavior can be largely unacceptable with one or more members, and when that happens, this site has a very good track record of confronting those issues, and if necessary, bringing that person(s) to task for it. Blanket statements in threads directed at the people against whom you are ranting will only worsen the pallor of misunderstanding. You are invariably going to miss the reasons behind someone's actions, which is just as offensive as you may think those actions are.

[Looking4Answers]

And make no mistake, what you pose as an observation and a request, is a demand, a requirement.

 

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. What demand am I making? I am ranting.

 

I'll grant that plenty of members can be rude, abrasive, and in some cases downright abusive to proselytizing christians, and many of us are quite derisive of christian doctrine, and sometimes the ideas of other members. The question, again, is WHY does it have to be another way?

 

I think some here are thinking that I am saying people need to not argue their points or something. No. That is not what I am saying. I am simply saying that people can work at getting their points across in a variety of ways. Some ways are purposefully offensive. Some are not. People have a choice. For example, in retrospect I can see how some people can get riled up at this topic. However, I don't see people trying to be offensive in presenting their points of view. People hear are trying to argue against what I am saying and, in fact, you all are giving me a lot to think about. And, believe it or not, I appreciate it.

[pitchu]

L4A, have you ever seen televised courtroom victims' statements prior to sentencing?

 

Have you seen these people's faces contorted with fury? Have you seen the froth at their mouths? Have you heard their words -- coming directly from the deepest place of torment within them as they lashed out at the perpetrator who killed their loved one?

 

Well, maybe nobody here has suffered the literal death of a loved one at the hands of xianity, but many here feel they were given a living death by that religion... that something or many things within them died... that possibilities were killed... it is a religion of death, after all.

 

I doubt that you'd advise victims in a courtroom to work toward a civil tone and make sure that their points are made about ideas and abstractions rather than becoming direct attacks on the perpetrator. I just doubt that you would try to guide them in that way. Similarly, consider this a courtroom of sorts, for those whose little deaths demand a reckoning. Where are they/we going to go to scream and froth and swear at the multitudinous perpetrators, if not here?

[Dhampir]

I think some here are thinking that I am saying people need to not argue their points or something. No. That is not what I am saying. I am simply saying that people can work at getting their points across in a variety of ways. Some ways are purposefully offensive.

I'm aware that this is what you're getting at. And it is true that people can work at getting their points across in a variety of ways, some of which are purposefully offensive. My question is why must they?

 

The reason I say you are making a demand, through this rant, is because of your implications. That it is completely negative, that what you suggest is not only a better way, but that this better way is the way it should be. It's unacceptable to you, and that it must change. Of course you don't say it must change, rather you rant about it, insisting that we should try this different way you propose, however politely. You allow no leeway for the reasons people lash out and intentionally offend those who are entitled to no restraint here.

 

Now, I don't intend offense in my presumption, but I find that suggesting things rather than stating them as fact, when I am confident that I have the measure of an issue, often leads to waffling, both for myself and the opposition.

[Looking4Answers]

Hi Pitchu,

 

Thank you for your post. I agree. I really do. I am "seeing the light" (sorry, I couldn't resist)!

 

Even so, I still see some things a little differently than you describe them (not that I might not change, mind you). Instead of seeing each of the people still in Christianity as the perpetrators, I see them as victims, like I was. I see them held in thrall, like I was. When I look at it this way, I feel pity instead of anger. Now, granted, there are those special few that I certainly harbor no love for. This is for those that use this system to their own ends and enslave people in the process. But my original rant was not about those certain individuals (should they grace this web site with their presence). I suppose the thought hit me when I was reading some general posts that simply assumed Christians were stupid for being Christians or that they are fools. They may be brainwashed, but many are certainly neither stupid nor fools. In my mind, there is a difference between someone believing something foolish and being an actual fool.

 

In any case, I am (finally) hearing what is being said here. I am understanding better. Not only am I understanding this site better (and the people here), but I am learning something about myself.

 

Thank you to each of you that took the time to participate. I do appreciate it.

[Looking4Answers]

Dhampir,

 

Thank you for your posts and clarification. I think you are taking this much to seriously, though. I was never demanding my way. I am testing a point and learning from it. That is all.

 

Now, having said that, what would be wrong with telling someone that you think there is a better way and then suggesting it? Why would anyone be offended by that? And even if the way I thought would be better is not better, why is that offensive? Can't a father suggest to a child a way to help them get along better in society? Should the child be offended at this? Can't a friend, if he thinks he sees a friend behaving inappropriately, say anything about it (even if he is wrong)? By sharing our thoughts, we can learn from each other, right? I have learned a lot here in this thread. People here have given me much to think about and, for that, I am very happy.

 

You allow no leeway for the reasons people lash out and intentionally offend those who are entitled to no restraint here.

 

That is simply not true. Again, I am arguing my point. I am trying to get through (if I think I am not) and I am testing my points to see if they stand. If they do not, then I learn that I am wrong. That is not giving no leeway. I did not come in here and say, "You must do things my way or else!" I simply stated what I thought, read what people wrote and responded. Nothing more. Nothing less. Take it or leave it. That is up to you.

 

Still, like I said, I have learned something here (and, yes, even from your posts ). I think I have been trained to be civil in too many cases . Please remember, I am still in search of myself. I am bound, in this journey, to make many mistakes.

[Dhampir]

That is simply not true. Again, I am arguing my point. I am trying to get through (if I think I am not) and I am testing my points to see if they stand. If they do not, then I learn that I am wrong. That is not giving no leeway. I did not come in here and say, "You must do things my way or else!" I simply stated what I thought, read what people wrote and responded. Nothing more. Nothing less. Take it or leave it. That is up to you.

I know you didn't say that. Your politeness, or lack of insistence is not what I'm addressing.

 

When you say things like "Aren't we better than this?" is indicative of a definite belief about how things should go. It's like those commercials where the lone kid is saying to his friends "Hey, lets all... abstain from marijuana!" or "Hey, lets all, wait till marriage!" or "Hey, let's all do the Urkel dance!"

 

Basically, if you walk into a white supremacist's house (I'm black, btw) and you want the people to stop throwing around the N word so much, its time to either shut up about it, or leave. And NO, I'm not saying those are your options here; I fully support your right to express an opinion about anything here. What I'm saying is that those would be your options elsewhere.