Aahhh, Isn't This Just So Sweet?

[chefranden]

Israeli girls write to Hezbollah

 

Edit: changed Palestinian to Hezbollah to address fictional Issue. My bad for not paying closer attention and taking the Reddit title.

[nightflight]

Israeli girls write to Palestinians

 

 

Wow, you found pics from 2006! Congratulations.

[pitchu]

No, Chef, these were not written to Palestinians. These were written to Arab terrorists in Lebanon who, from the years 1974 through 2006 mercilessly shelled and tormented the residents of Kiryat Shmona in northern Israel. Were parents, cousins, teachers of these little girls among those killed? Who knows? But it's not the biggest city, and these little girls had likely spent most of their lives running for their lives from Hezbollah rockets.

 

On July 17, 2006, the date on which "your" pictures were taken, this town, in which these girls lived, had a barrage of katyusha rockets hailing down on them from Lebanon.

 

Kiryat Shmona has been the scene of several attacks from Arab terrorists operating from across the Lebanese border.

On April 11, 1974, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, sent three members across the border from Lebanon to Kiryat Shmona. They killed eighteen residents of an apartment building, including many children, before being killed in an exchange of fire at the complex (see Kiryat Shmona massacre).

 

The city continued to be the target of attacks after this, including Katyusha rocket attacks by the PLO in July 1981, a Katyusha rocket attack by the PLO in March 1986 (killing a teacher and injuring four students and one adult), and further Katyusha rocket attacks by Hezbollah during 1996's Operation Grapes of Wrath. The citizens of the town had suffered almost daily attack from the mid 70's until the year 2000, when the IDF left Lebanon. In the years 2000-2006 the locals suffered loud explosion noises every few weeks because of Anti Plane rockets launched at IDF planes flying nearby.

 

During the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, the city often received media attention because of its being the frequent target of multiple Hezbollah Katyusha rocket attacks. On July 13, 2006, Kiryat Shmona closed its courts due to the ongoing danger of rocket attacks. The next day, three Hezbollah rockets landed in the town. On July 17, Hezbollah launched more Katyusha rockets that hit Kiryat Shmona and neighboring towns. The night of July 17, as a barrage of Hezbollah rockets were launched into northern Israeli communities, a Katyusha hit a house near Kiryat Shmona. During the war, a total of 1012 Katyusha rockets hit Kiryat Shmona. Approximately half of the city’s residents had left the area, and the other half who remained stayed in bomb shelters.

 

-[from wikipedia; bolding mine]

 

Do we want to take a look or a listen to little Arab girls charmingly swearing to become martyrs by killing Jews with their own exploding bodies when they grow up? Shall we watch them laughing and cheering at their governmentally-sponsored cartoons, featuring cuddly creatures killing Jews?

 

Children on both sides are put in untenable positions, and thus do horrendous things.

 

I think it is shameful to have singled out these little girls and to have presented the story wrongly.

[chefranden]

No, Chef, these were not written to Palestinians. These were written to Arab terrorists in Lebanon who, from the years 1974 through 2006 mercilessly shelled and tormented the residents of Kiryat Shmona in northern Israel. Were parents, cousins, teachers of these little girls among those killed? Who knows? But it's not the biggest city, and these little girls had likely spent most of their lives running for their lives from Hezbollah rockets.

 

<Snip>

 

Do we want to take a look or a listen to little Arab girls charmingly swearing to become martyrs by killing Jews with their own exploding bodies when they grow up? Shall we watch them laughing and cheering at their governmentally-sponsored cartoons, featuring cuddly creatures killing Jews?

 

Children on both sides are put in untenable positions, and thus do horrendous things.

 

I think it is shameful to have singled out these little girls and to have presented the story wrongly.

 

Hey Pitchu,

 

I knew I was going to take lumps from you if I posted this.

 

Whether the message was to Palestinians or Lebanese is a bit beside the point. It is the horror of it that counts. I don't doubt that Arabic Girls were writing on the rockets sent Israel way. However, if you really are the good guys in the fight you don't do this shit.

 

The point is that Israel is not the good guys. That statement doesn't mean that Arabs are the good guys. We support Israel in this bloody bullshit. I don't want to support Israel. I don't want to support the Arabs/Palestinians either. With our support Israel kills a great many more people than the other side manages. If we supported the other side my jabs would be against them.

 

What ever excuse you can give for Israel's behavior goes four fold for the Arab/Palestinians, because Israel has the best bombs thanks in no small part to us.

 

You have a dog in this fight so I'd say you can't be rational about it. I dare say if your relatives were Palestinians you'd be on the other side. I don't want my country on either side. These picture give good reasons not to be in favor of Israel and maybe spreading them around will reduce American obsession with supporting Israel a tad. If we go to supporting the other side I will have to change tactics.

 

Sorry that it has to piss you off.

 

Chef.

[pitchu]

First, Chef, you failed to address the fiction of the title to your thread, and the impression it would give when the photos were viewed. It seems to be just okay with you that, with no facts to the contrary, anyone checking in on this thread who didn't have historical background, or who didn't care to pursue the facts on their own, would conclude that these are little Israeli girls of today, writing on shells intended for Gaza. That is inflammatory. If you don't care about facts anymore, you have changed. A lot.

 

Then, there's the issue of dragging children's war-like actions (but only the children on one side of the conflict) into this ongoing discussion, in a way calculated to elicit horror and revulsion. You say that The Good Guys don't do this shit? You know infinitely more about war than I do, Chef, and I can't believe that you believe these words you wrote.

 

Children don't make policy. Children are at the mercy of their parents and guardians, and your fiction-laced presentation of those pictures, imo, can only reflect a scraping of the bottom of the barrel to produce emotional reaction, not reasoned deliberation. This, too, is not like you.

 

You have a dog in this fight so I'd say you can't be rational about it.

I'm supposing you're referring to my Jewish husband as the "dog" I have in this fight. Nice. That gratuitous reference discounts, of course, my good mind and my ability to read and interpret history, as well as my ongoing perspective on the Middle East before he and I ever met. I resent the statement that my views on these matters are the result of familial attachment and influence rather than rationality. This is an odious tactic; it's the equivalent of your patting me reassuringly and telling me, "Don't worry your pretty little head about it."

 

The Monkeysphere only applies where it actually applies, Chef.

 

Israel kills a great many more people than the other side manages

 

I don't indulge in this premise: Rectitude is Determined by Body Count. (No matter who supports whom, and there's plenty of outside support on both sides.)

 

Sorry that it has to piss you off.

 

Your entire post belies this empty, presumptuous, mocking apology.

 

Who the hell have you become?!

[chefranden]

First, Chef, you failed to address the fiction of the title to your thread, and the impression it would give when the photos were viewed. It seems to be just okay with you that, with no facts to the contrary, anyone checking in on this thread who didn't have historical background, or who didn't care to pursue the facts on their own, would conclude that these are little Israeli girls of today, writing on shells intended for Gaza. That is inflammatory. If you don't care about facts anymore, you have changed. A lot.

Fictional issue dealt with via edit.

 

Then, there's the issue of dragging children's war-like actions (but only the children on one side of the conflict) into this ongoing discussion, in a way calculated to elicit horror and revulsion. You say that The Good Guys don't do this shit? You know infinitely more about war than I do, Chef, and I can't believe that you believe these words you wrote.

Guilty, but I've already explained above.

 

Children don't make policy. Children are at the mercy of their parents and guardians, and your fiction-laced presentation of those pictures, imo, can only reflect a scraping of the bottom of the barrel to produce emotional reaction, not reasoned deliberation. This, too, is not like you.

IMHO the horror needs to be shown. I don't think I said that Children make policy, but this sort of thing certainly shows the sick sick attitudes of their parents and their government doesn't it. An it puts the proper light on those attitudes. I.e. those attitudes and policies suck in the most horrific ways possible

 

And it is not fiction laced, that is your prejudice talking, making much over my titling error, instead of addressing the issue. They are children. They are writing on shells that will be fired to kill and maim people. Maybe the shells will just kill fighters, but chances are slim to none. However, even if they are targeted precisely on the enemy it is still disgusting behavior. And shows the attitude of the Government and parents and cavalier disregard for peoples lives. This pisses me off even when adults do it, as our boys did in the Iraq war.

 

You have a dog in this fight so I'd say you can't be rational about it.

I'm supposing you're referring to my Jewish husband as the "dog" I have in this fight. Nice. That gratuitous reference discounts, of course, my good mind and my ability to read and interpret history, as well as my ongoing perspective on the Middle East before he and I ever met. I resent the statement that my views on these matters are the result of familial attachment and influence rather than rationality. This is an odious tactic; it's the equivalent of your patting me reassuringly and telling me, "Don't worry your pretty little head about it."

 

Your ability to read and interpret history seems to leave out the plight of those attacked and displaced by Israel and its creation when ever this issue is discussed. And I still say that if your relatives were Palestinians your interpretation would be quite different. If you can't see that then maybe your otherwise impeccable mind needs to be questioned -- in this matter.

 

The Monkeysphere only applies where it actually applies, Chef.

As far as I know it applies.

 

Israel kills a great many more people than the other side manages

 

I don't indulge in this premise: Rectitude is Determined by Body Count. (No matter who supports whom, and there's plenty of outside support on both sides.)

 

Gee then where are the battle tanks, f-16s, smart bombs, and cluster bombs of the Palestinians, and Hezbollah? Neither side as any moral high ground in my opinion. Therefore I don't care who supplies them as long is it isn't my country. They are two Abrahamic traditions dealing with conflict in the same old Abrahamic way of rubbing out the bad guy including kids, babies and cows. I say stay away from them until they are fighting with sticks and stones. Perhaps then they will get tired and think about compassion.

[The-Captain]

All things aside Pitchu, what would be wrong with lessened US involvement in the region? Not advocating that if the other Arab countries go on the warpath we look the other way, I would think the whole world community would step in if that happened. Just neutrality.

[Looking4Answers]

These were written to Arab terrorists in Lebanon who, from the years 1974 through 2006 mercilessly shelled and tormented the residents of Kiryat Shmona in northern Israel.

 

This statement makes it sound like there has been constant shelling of the area for 30+ years! This is simply not the case. I lived 15 minutes south of Kiryat Shmona in a village called Yasod HaMa'alla. I used to grocery shop in Kiryat Shmona. I know people that live there. And, yes, the place was hit hard (very hard) in the last war with Lebanon. However, prior to that the place has had relative peace. Yes, things would happen from time to time, but not as often as a statement like that made it sound.

 

The citizens of the town had suffered almost daily attack from the mid 70's until the year 2000, when the IDF left Lebanon. In the years 2000-2006 the locals suffered loud explosion noises every few weeks because of Anti Plane rockets launched at IDF planes flying nearby.

 

I don't know who wrote this, but it does not honestly represent the facts. Daily attacks from the 70's until 2000? How so? I have friends there. They did not tell me about these daily attacks? I don't recall hearing any of those loud explosions in from 2000-2006 either. Like I said, I was only 15 minutes from Kiryat Shmona. And Kiryat Shmona is a good 20-30 minute drive from the boarder with Lebanon. Now, if you want to talk about Metulah ... they had experienced things like this and that town is RIGHT on the border. I have a dear friend that lives there and had visited him frequently.

 

However, the last war with Lebanon was very hard on Kiryat Shmona. That is true. I think something like over 1500 homes and businesses were hit by rocket fire from Lebanon.

[Outback Jack]

Here's some Palestinian kids playing dress up. Isn't it so cute!

 

 

IMHO the horror needs to be shown. I don't think I said that Children make policy, but this sort of thing certainly shows the sick sick attitudes of their parents and their government doesn't it. An it puts the proper light on those attitudes. I.e. those attitudes and policies suck in the most horrific ways possible. (Neat! Your words work just as well when used to describe the real bad guys here.)

 

They are writing on shells that will be fired to kill and maim people. Maybe the shells will just kill fighters, but chances are slim to none.

 

You might be missing a key point here, Chef. I think Israelis would be very happy if ONLY fighters were killed. The Palestinians aren't happy UNLESS they kill noncombatants. They SPECIFICALLY target people like you and me who are waiting at a bus stop or having lunch in a restaurant.

 

I see the main difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the Israelis would be happy if there were no noncombatant deaths while the Palestinian's goal is nothing but noncombatant deaths. They purposefully target civilians and that's all I need to know.

 

I take it back. There is one other main difference. IIRC Israel was attacked the very same day that it was formed. And it has been attacked many times since then. For 60 years the Arabs/Muslims have attacked Israel every few years and then whine about how mean the Israelis are when they kick their ass.

 

 

Golda Meir captured it decades ago with her observation that has become a truism: there will not be peace until they love their children more than they hate our children.

[Evan]

A nice article from the guys over at exiled online. The war nerd is cold and callous, but he says what needs to be said.

 

http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-hamas...t-no-hezbollah/

[pitchu]

Chef:

Your ability to read and interpret history seems to leave out the plight of those attacked and displaced by Israel and its creation when ever this issue is discussed.

 

That is bullshit. You and I were both around here in 2003 and 2004 for initial threads on this topic (now vanished with the old boards) and I posted plenty of history -- going back to earliest communities of Jews in those lands through the development (in conjunction with pogroms and the rise of European anti-Semitism) of Zionism; through the contemporaneous writings from Arabs in that area re: the Jewish settlements of the late 1800's and early 1900's (how the mostly-Bedouin Arab males feared the threat to their own domination over females as they took note of, yet were magnetized by, the "pretty half-naked Jewish women in the village"); through the 1920's massacre by Arabs of the oldest Jewish community in Palestine -- with whom there'd been no problem -- because of their feeling threatened by the new communities' Western Ways; through the rise of the Nazis, with Jews trying to flee to anywhere, in any way they could -- their desperate little skiffs being dashed, along with their bodies, on the rough shoals of other coasts, while the Grand Mufti entreated his buddy, Hitler, to annihilate the Jews in Palestine and got Hitler's promise to do so; through the Sailing of the St. Louis, loaded with Jewish refugees whom every country turned away; through the Arab pleading for the British to close the last hope for fleeing Jews -- the corridor to Palestine (which the British did) trapping and bringing death to as many as a million Jews. All this and much more I wrote about, frequently and in far greater detail. And I ain't doin' that again for you or nobody. I don't have the thousands of typing hours at my disposal.

 

The people who now call themselves Palestinians, whose ancestry is mainly Jordanian and minimally of other Arab nations, were essentially left to rot after brand-new Israel was attacked by seven Arab nations. They were left to rot by their Arab brothers who would not take them in, would not re-assimilate them, so that Palestinians could be seen by the world as a festering sore at the doorstep of Israel for the furtherance of the Islamic goal to kill all the Jews in the world and convert everybody else to Islam or kill them, too, by the dictates of Holy Jihad. I do not hate these Arabs. I just do not understand them, nor why the policies and practices required by their death-based religion holds such sway among alleged intellectuals. I don't minimize the often wrong-headed and dreadful decisions of various Israeli governments. But I prefer supporting those people whose cry is, "To Life!"

 

This is the background and the truth of...

 

the plight of those attacked and displaced by Israel and its creation

 

I also wrote, back then, my conclusion that people fleeing for their very lives -- again -- after a few thousand years of having to do so, have every right -- finally -- to a safe haven of their own in a place of their ancestry on land which had earlier been almost exclusively purchased by Jew after Jew after Jew from absent landlords of that uninviting mosquito-infested neglected terrain.

 

I rather think what may be bothering you is your inability to recall that four years ago you agreed.

 

But that was BNC... before Noam Chomsky and his sloppy scholarship and mumbling diatribes and hate of the Jews, himself among them.

[pitchu]

Chef says:

They are writing on shells that will be fired to kill and maim people.

 

Al-Aqsa is writing on minds of children: Kill and Maim People. Their ink is indelible.

 

 

The Hamas satellite station Al-Aqsa recently used a Mickey Mouse clone to teach Muslim children -- in Gaza and Europe -- to hate Jews.

 

"Sanabel, what do you want to do to help the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Farfur asks on the children's program of Hamas's Al-Aqsa television station. "We want to fight." "And what else?" "Wipe out the Jews." Now Farfur, the cartoon character on Hamas's children's television program, is satisfied. Farfur is a carbon copy of Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse, but the Hamas version does something that Mickey would never do: He entertains children while propagating the murder of Jews.

 

International protests forced Hamas to take its Disney clone out of circulation. Al-Aqsa complied, but promptly turned Farfur's departure into an anti-Semitic statement: Farfur was clubbed to death by an Israeli official. Then the girl hosting the program turned to the camera and said: "You've seen how the Jews killed Farfur as a martyr. What do you want to say to the Jews?" A three-year-old girl named Shaima called into the show to say: "We don't like Jews, because they are dogs! We will fight them!" "Oh, Shaima, you're right," the girl in the studio replied, "the Jews are criminals and our enemies."

 

Farfur's appearances are typical of Hamas's anti-Semitic propaganda, which the organization also exports to Germany via satellite, hoping to breed new generations of fanatical anti-Semites and suicide bombers.

 

The Hamas station, founded in 2006, is modeled on the Hezbollah station in neighboring Lebanon, al-Manar. Al-Manar's children's program shows children wearing explosive belts and images of dying Israeli soldiers, with triumphant chants as background music. Cartoons depict scenes like that of a child blowing himself up near Israeli soldiers, or of a smiling boy flying toward Israel on a missile. Adult viewers can enjoy video clips that use inspirational graphics and rousing music to glorify the act of committing a suicide bombing, while the evening lineup offers family entertainment with a series of films based on the classic anti-Semitic forgery "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/...,553724,00.html

[chefranden]

Pitchu,

Before we go on I suggest you move the tread to the Lions Den, my bad for not putting it there in the first place.

 

Here are a few quotes to back up my attitude about Israels attitude previously show by the girls writing on shells.

 

The Palestinians, in Israeli officials' own words

 

Early 1970's: "We have no solution... You [Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads."– Moshe Dayan (1915-1981) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, defense minister, and leader of the Labor party in Israel. He said these words in a talk with members of his Labor cabinet. Noam Chomsky cites as source of this quote: Yossi Beilin, Mehiro shel Ihud (Revivim, 1985), 42; an important review of cabinet records under the Labor Party.

Books that cite these words

(excluding Chomsky's)

 

May 3, 1983:

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle."– Rafael Eitan (1929-2004) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, and later as Knesset member and government minister.

Sources

 

 

October 8, 2004:

"The significance of the [Gaza Strip disengagement] plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing. ... "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians ... When you freeze [the peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. ... Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. ... And all this with authority and permission. All with a [uS] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

– Dov Weisglass, then adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

 

 

February 2006:

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger."

– Dov Weisglass, adviser to now-Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert, talking about Israel's blockade on the Gaza Strip.

Source 1

,

2

 

 

February 29, 2008:

"The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah' [Holocaust] because we will use all our might to defend ourselves."

– Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defense minister. Source

 

 

Jan 12, 2009:

..."Justification aside, this is not a war. The assault resembles an expedition of a colonial power that goes out of the colonists' enclave to teach a lesson to rebellious barbaric tribes. The kind of raids known from 19th century colonial wars; the kind of raids South Africa conducted often in the seventies and eighties against neighboring countries. Only now the natives not the colonists are in the enclave. The Jewish colonists have turned the entire Palestinian territory into a series of enclaves, more or less separated from each other, and from "Israel proper" (which includes not only the territory west of the 67 border , "the green line," but also most of the Jewish settlements east of the green line). Different enclaves are treated differently. They are more or less "external" to the Israeli mainland, more or less forsaken by the Israeli sovereign and its governmental apparatuses. Gaza is an enclave of a special kind and status. It is an enclave that has turned into a frontier, a no man's land and an experimental field for man's hunting and for a gradual, more or less controlled destruction.

 

It is not this assault that has turned Gaza into a human pen. The closure started during the 1991 Gulf war, released somewhat during the Oslo years, tightened forcefully when the second Intifada started in October 2000, and then, after the disengagement in August 2005, turned into a full fledge military siege. Without employing much power, simply by closing the Strip, preventing the movement of people and commodities, restricting the flow of gas and electricity, letting the already collapsing sewage system collapse, Israel has turned the Strip into a zone of emergency. Seasonal outbursts of direct military violence that recur at least once a year since 2002 ("Operation Defensive Shield") multiply victims but do not change the basic structure of Israeli domination. In the zone of emergency the entire population has lost -- in the eyes of the Israeli sovereign -- its political status, and has become a mixture of terrorists, suspects, and clients of humanitarian aid. As such Gaza is a laboratory of catastrophization. The present assault is not a war of one army against another, neither a war of a regular army against a guerilla organization, and not even or not simply a war of a regular army against an armed militia. Notwithstanding intentions and justifications, the scope of destruction and the number of civilian casualties are first and foremost a temporary change in the mode of catastrophization: airplane bombs are added to the closure, artillery shells go hand in hand with the cutoff of electricity and the destruction of the sewage system. Catastrophization and not the infliction of a large scale disaster, because the humanitarian corridor is always open. Israel will not let a true humanitarian catastrophe happen in Gaza. There are no final solutions in this conflict, and there won't be one here as well.

Israel governs Gaza by an ongoing measured and calculated catastrophization that becomes more brutal, deadly and shameless with each wave of violence. More is yet to come.

– Adi Ophir, professor of philosophy and critical theory at Tel Aviv University.

Link

 

 

Finally a 'longish' quote by Yitzhak Laor, Israeli poet and novelist. From an op/ed page in the London Review of Books, Jan 2009:

We've been here before. It's a ritual. Every two or three years, our military mounts another bloody expedition. The enemy is always smaller, weaker; our military is always larger, technologically more sophisticated, prepared for full-scale war against a full-scale army. But Iran is too scary, and even the relatively small Hizbullah gave us a hard time. That leaves the Palestinians.

 

Israel is engaged in a long war of annihilation against Palestinian society.

The objective is to destroy the Palestinian nation and drive it back into pre-modern groupings based on the tribe, the clan and the enclave. This is the last phase of the Zionist colonial mission, culminating in inaccessible townships, camps, villages, districts, all of them to be walled or fenced off, and patrolled by a powerful army which, in the absence of a proper military objective, is really an over-equipped police force, with F16s, Apaches, tanks, artillery, commando units and hi-tech surveillance at its disposal.

 

The extent of the cruelty, the lack of shame and the refusal of self-restraint are striking, both in anthropological terms and historically. The worldwide Jewish support for this vandal offensive makes one wonder if this isn't the moment Zionism is taking over the Jewish people.

 

But the real issue is that since 1991, and even more since the Oslo agreements in 1993, Israel has played on the idea that it really is trading land for peace, while the truth is very different. Israel has not given up the territories, but cantonised and blockaded them. The new strategy is to confine the Palestinians: they do not belong in our space, they are to remain out of sight, packed into their townships and camps, or swelling our prisons. This project now has the support of most of the Israeli press and academics.

 

We are the masters. We work and travel. They can make their living by policing their own people. We drive on the highways. They must live across the hills. The hills are ours. So are the fences. We control the roads, and the checkpoints and the borders. We control their electricity, their water, their milk, their oil, their wheat and their gasoline. If they protest peacefully we fire tear gas at them. If they throw stones, we fire bullets. If they launch a rocket, we destroy a house and its inhabitants. If they launch a missile, we destroy families, neighbourhoods, streets, towns.

 

Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state alongside it. It is willing to prove this with hundreds of dead and thousands of disabled, in a single 'operation'. The message is always the same: leave or remain in subjugation, under our military dictatorship. We are a democracy. We have decided democratically that you will live like dogs.

 

On 27 December just before the bombs started falling on Gaza, the Zionist parties, from Meretz to Yisrael Betenu, were unanimously in favour of the attack. As usual – it's the ritual again – differences emerged only over the dispatch of blankets and medication to Gaza. Our most fervent pro-war columnist, Ari Shavit, has suggested that Israel should go on with the assault and build a hospital for the victims. The enemy is wounded, bleeding, dying, desperate for help. Nobody is coming unless Obama moves – yes, we are all waiting for Godot. Maybe this time he shows up.

 

– Yitzhak Laor lives in Tel Aviv. He is the editor of Mita'am.

[REBOOT]

There's only one solution to this conflict, put up walls.

You've got them on the West Bank. You need a rocket-proof no-man's land and a wall for Gaza. 40 years of bloody conflict is the proof in the pudding isn't it ?

 

As long as Israel remains a religious state you're going to see irrationality and insanity on both sides of the fence. In a way, the religious status of Israel is forcing its neighbours into a religious stance instead of a secular international law regulated attitude.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewa...?questionID=358

 

You've crossed the moral line (on both sides) when you're up to twisting youth to support insanity and death. When there's no room for discussion, you seal off the borders until rationality comes back (maybe never).

[Looking4Answers]

Israel is not a religious state. It may have the Sabbath (in some areas, like portions of Jerusalem, shops close on Friday night and open again on either Saturday night or Sunday morning) and a few other things, but the vast majority of people are very secular as is its government. The ultra-orthodox make up about 10% of the population. The majority of people that do things like "keeping kosher" do so out of tradition and not out of religious observance and, even then, these traditions vary from family to family. When you get away from cities like Jerusalem, you find that many of these things are not there. For example, in Tel Aviv the shops are open on Friday night and all day Saturday. Basically the Sabbath, in many places in Israel, has become a weekend and a time to enjoy being with the family.

 

The term "Jew" and "Jewish" is much debated and many don't know really what makes up a Jew. Some of the laws of Israel, such as the Law of Return, define a Jew as one that has Jewish lineage. As such, this definition would make the term "Jew" apply to who your parents were and, thus, something genealogical. However, some think of it in religious terms. This makes things a bit strange in Israel when it comes to answering the question about whether someone is Jewish or not.

 

Israel is a democracy and they do advocate freedom of religion there. But Israel is supposed to be a nation for the Jews. However, as pointed out above, since they struggle with the concept of what a Jew is, this makes it a bit difficult for them. At times it is a biological consideration and at others a religious consideration.

 

In any case, my experiences living there showed me that most people are secular and just want to get on with their lives. Most there in Israel want a decent job, to have nice things in their homes, to have their kids well educated and to do much of what we try to do here in the USA. Most that I met and talked to feel badly for the plight of the Palestinian people and wish things were better for them. Most see the difference between the people that live in Palestinian areas and organizations like the Hamas, PLO, etc. Unfortunately, it is not the average person that makes the news. And, as a result, when we start pulling news articles to quote from in order to prove a point, we often get a skewed view.

[chefranden]

Here's some Palestinian kids playing dress up. Isn't it so cute!

 

IMHO the horror needs to be shown. I don't think I said that Children make policy, but this sort of thing certainly shows the sick sick attitudes of their parents and their government doesn't it. An it puts the proper light on those attitudes. I.e. those attitudes and policies suck in the most horrific ways possible. (Neat! Your words work just as well when used to describe the real bad guys here.)

The problem here is that this issue is so polarized that if one speaks against the Israeli that it is automatically assumed that one means that the Palestinians et. al. are automatically the angels. I don't think that you have read what I've written so far very carefully.

 

I don't have to convince anyone about the evil of the Muslim side to the fight. However, western people especially Americans think that Israel is good guys. They are not. They are committing genocide.* This is not to say that the Muslim side would not if they could. The facts are they can't, so they aren't.

 

Example of this intention: "We have no solution... You [Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads."– Moshe Dayan (1915-1981)

 

There is noting in international law that says a country can commit preemptive genocide. In the case of Israel people are afraid to call a spade a spade for fear of being labeled a racist anti-Semite.

 

 

They are writing on shells that will be fired to kill and maim people. Maybe the shells will just kill fighters, but chances are slim to none.

 

You might be missing a key point here, Chef. I think Israelis would be very happy if ONLY fighters were killed. The Palestinians aren't happy UNLESS they kill noncombatants. They SPECIFICALLY target people like you and me who are waiting at a bus stop or having lunch in a restaurant.

 

I see the main difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the Israelis would be happy if there were no noncombatant deaths while the Palestinian's goal is nothing but noncombatant deaths. They purposefully target civilians and that's all I need to know.

 

You have no proof of any of this. This is speaking from the assumption that Israel doesn't want to terrorize ordinary Palestinians because they offically say they don't, and from the assumption that Israel is the good guy. And you don't know that if the Palestinians had smart weapons that they wouldn't attempt to make the same claim.

 

If you know know non-combatants will be killed if you use a weapon on "suspected" combatants, then you intend that those casualties happen. It is simply outrages to say other wise. You can say the the enemy forced you to do it, but that is another crock of shit. And of course the Palestinians can make the same argument and do.

 

Both sides are guilty of war crimes. That means the Israel is guilty of war crimes. The crimes of another doesn't justify crimes for yourself. The pictures that I showed above is proof that Israel is no better than the Muslim side. You seem to be arguing that it is ok for Israel to do it because the Muslims do it. Well then it is ok for the Muslims to do it because Israel does it.

 

I am not saying support the Muslim side. I'm saying don't support the Israeli side, and call a spade a spade.

 

I take it back. There is one other main difference. IIRC Israel was attacked the very same day that it was formed. And it has been attacked many times since then. For 60 years the Arabs/Muslims have attacked Israel every few years and then whine about how mean the Israelis are when they kick their ass.

 

Well gee there is a surprise! Europeans come and colonize and the natives get upset. Shame on those damn natives. They should have just packed up and got out, or died of smallpox or something.

 

Golda Meir captured it decades ago with her observation that has become a truism: there will not be peace until they love their children more than they hate our children.

 

And visa versa.

[chefranden]

Chef:

Your ability to read and interpret history seems to leave out the plight of those attacked and displaced by Israel and its creation when ever this issue is discussed.

 

That is bullshit. You and I were both around here in 2003 and 2004 for initial threads on this topic (now vanished with the old boards) and I posted plenty of history --

 

Are you honestly saying that you are not influenced by your connection? I don't believe you just from the tone of your writing. I have no doubt that you have more knowledge of the history of the place than I do, but I don't believe your dispassionate stance. And I don't think that you are being honest about it. IMHO you are a partisan.

 

Are you actually saying that the crimes of one justify the crimes of another? Are you actually saying that Europeans can go anywhere and make a county and the natives ought to just fold, and if they don't they are nothing but heathen savages?

 

The people who now call themselves Palestinians, whose ancestry is mainly Jordanian and minimally of other Arab nations, were essentially left to rot after brand-new Israel was attacked by seven Arab nations. They were left to rot by their Arab brothers who would not take them in, would not re-assimilate them, so that Palestinians could be seen by the world as a festering sore at the doorstep of Israel for the furtherance of the Islamic goal to kill all the Jews in the world and convert everybody else to Islam or kill them, too, by the dictates of Holy Jihad. I do not hate these Arabs. I just do not understand them, nor why the policies and practices required by their death-based religion holds such sway among alleged intellectuals. I don't minimize the often wrong-headed and dreadful decisions of various Israeli governments. But I prefer supporting those people whose cry is, "To Life!

"

 

I don't understand why the ancestry of a people can justify how they are treated. I don't understand why being left to rot by some means that it is ok if they are left to rot by all.

 

I don't doubt that the fanatics of Islam want the above to happen. Neither do I doubt that the fanatics of Judaism, or Christianity want the same with themselves as the victors. However, none of it justifies rubbing out ordinary people by any of them. Your supposition of Israel being the good guy is unjustified by Israel's behavior which is again presently evident in Gaza. This does not mean that the Palestinians or Hamas are the good guys, as you seem to think I think, I think. IMHO the leaders and some of the followers of both sides are evil fucks. And I am sick of my country acting otherwise.

[Looking4Answers]

I (personally) think there is a big difference between the Palestinians and the Israelis. I moved to Israel during the height of the last Intifada right after 9/11. We didn't move because of 9/11, but that was just our scheduled time of departure. In any case, we witnessed the weekly bus bombings as we lived in the suburbs of Jerusalem at that time (we moved up north later). We watched the local news to see the reports of a bomb carrying terrorist that would run into a crowd of people standing by, waiting to board a bus at Tel Aviv's bus terminal. I had a friend contact me the day that he was in his car behind a bus that exploded from one of these bombs. He witness the explosion and the blood. I talked to a friend that was standing on a street corner when a bus exploded across from her. I can remember several occasions where I personally just missed being in such a mess myself (i.e. I was standing on a particular corner, left and then later watched the news to find out that a bus blew up just 30 minutes later on that very corner). These buses were filled with people of all ages and all walks of life. Cars in Israel are very expensive (at least twice the cost of the same car here in the USA). The result is most people takes buses just to do things like shop for groceries or to go out for a night on the town. For a long time it was a weekly (and sometimes a daily) occurrence for these sorts of terror attacks to take place.

 

When the war on Lebanon started, the terrorists there did not purpose to target military installations. Instead, they purposefully shot at civilian targets like Kiryat Shmona. They even got a few missiles to go as far down as Yasod HaMa'ala (where I used to live!) and, according to a friend I have living in that village, one missile hit in the yard next to the house I used to rent! I can tell you that there is not a military presence in Yasod HaMa'ala. It is a village of orchards. There was no military significance in striking that village with missiles other than to attempt to kill civilians.

 

Israel has done it share of atrocities. Of this I have no doubt. However, I am fairly certain that they are not purposefully striking civilian targets. And lets face facts: If Israel had wanted to simply wipe out the Palestinians, they could do it with very little effort. All they would have to do is fly their jets over head and let fall their strategic missiles, send in the tanks full force and simply devastate them. It would not be difficult for them to do. If Israel wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, they could have done it already and done it quite easily. But they have not. In fact, they have shown great restraint, despite what their enemies have done to them and to the civilians that live in Israel.

 

In Israeli schools, the children are taught to be tolerant of other people and of the Palestinians. In many Israeli schools, Jewish children are taught Hebrew (the national language), English (which is required to attend college) and Arabic. In Palestinian schools the children are taught to hate their Jewish neighbors and to cry out for the spilling of their blood. I think this shows a vast difference between the two peoples, wouldn't you agree? And I know what is taught in many Israeli schools because I had children in the Israeli school system. So I am not just saying this because I read it in some report somewhere.

 

Many Arabs that are Israeli citizens do not like the Jews in Israel. Not all, but this can easily be found. However, when questioned, many of these same Israeli Arabs are upset at the Palestinians because they realize that peace cannot be achieved through the violence that is being propagated by the terrorists that come from Palestine. Like the Jewish Israelis, these Arabs simply want to live their lives, make a living and raise a family. The terror attacks hit them doubly hard because the same terror attacks disrupt their lives (just like it does the rest of the Israelis) and causes a deeper rift between them and Jewish Israelis ... a rift of trust.

[REBOOT]

In any case, my experiences living there showed me that most people are secular and just want to get on with their lives. Most there in Israel want a decent job, to have nice things in their homes, to have their kids well educated and to do much of what we try to do here in the USA. Most that I met and talked to feel badly for the plight of the Palestinian people and wish things were better for them. Most see the difference between the people that live in Palestinian areas and organizations like the Hamas, PLO, etc. Unfortunately, it is not the average person that makes the news. And, as a result, when we start pulling news articles to quote from in order to prove a point, we often get a skewed view.

 

They can think of themselves secular all they want but the injustice here was a land grab by people of the Jewish faith helped by the British after WWII. (By the way the Brits made other similar mistakes with India-Pakistan... millions of deaths.. Planned genocides ?!). The Hamas is fighting an infidel, unrecognized Jewish state, they couldn't care less about the secular. Iran wants to send the people of Israel into the sea.

 

Geographically, setting up a Jewish state in a muslim beehive made no sense 40 years ago and they are still fighting about it in 2009. Its like setting up a red light district near the Vatican.

 

Its a false sanctuary protected by nukes and indecency.

 

A western democracy surrounded by hostile dictatorships hosting radical islamists ?! How long can that last ? If Iran ever gets a few nukes and puts its threats into action... its game over and nuclear winter for all of us. That's how all that bloodletting will end.

 

Would the people of Israel be willing to re-locate? I don't think so.

 

The terms "Jewish state" and "homeland of the Jewish people" are used to describe the State of Israel^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]} and refer to its status as a nation-state for Jews. The phrase "national home for the Jewish people" has evolved over the years since it originated and was used in official documents such as the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The concept of a national homeland for the Jewish people is enshrined in Israeli national policy and reflected in many of Israel's public and national institutions. The concept was codified in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 as well as in the Law of Return, which was passed by the Knesset on 5 July 1950, and stated "Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh."^[7]

[Vigile]

Jack:

 

You might be missing a key point here, Chef. I think Israelis would be very happy if ONLY fighters were killed. The Palestinians aren't happy UNLESS they kill noncombatants. They SPECIFICALLY target people like you and me who are waiting at a bus stop or having lunch in a restaurant.

 

I see the main difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the Israelis would be happy if there were no noncombatant deaths while the Palestinian's goal is nothing but noncombatant deaths. They purposefully target civilians and that's all I need to know.

 

Chef:

 

You have no proof of any of this. This is speaking from the assumption that Israel doesn't want to terrorize ordinary Palestinians because they offically say they don't, and from the assumption that Israel is the good guy. And you don't know that if the Palestinians had smart weapons that they wouldn't attempt to make the same claim.

 

This has always been one of my pet peeves. We see the same thing in Iran with the Americans. Why is it the guys with all the technology and power are always assumed to be the good guys? The guys without it are left with very few options and one of those options that happens to be effective is creating terror by scaring the civilians. Meanwhile, the guys with all the hardware blow the bejesus out of their enemies and the death count, including non combatants is always 10 fold or more higher. No offense Jack I don't mean to be an ass as I think you're a good guy but this seems like screwy logic.

 

You seem to be arguing that it is ok for Israel to do it because the Muslims do it. Well then it is ok for the Muslims to do it because Israel does it.

 

Damn nice quote Chef, is that yours?

 

I am not saying support the Muslim side. I'm saying don't support the Israeli side, and call a spade a spade.

 

Exactly. And so I'm not accused of ganging up on Israel, the same should be said of the US when they stomp their heavy boots around the world fighting the "good" fight.

[Outback Jack]

The guys without it [the power] are left with very few options and one of those options that happens to be effective is creating terror by scaring the civilians.

This way seems more accurate to me:

The guys without it [the power] are left with very few options and one of those options that happens to be effective is creating terror by scaring specifically targeting and murdering the civilians with bombs made of nails and rat poison in order to prevent clotting and promote the bleeding to death of the civilian targets.

 

And how 'effective' is that tactic anyway? They've been blowing up Israeli civilians like that for decades and the Israeli's just take it and take it some more. For years. In relative peace. Until the Palestinians start lobbing rockets. I don't exactly keep track of all the shit that happens there, but in my lifetime, that usually seems to be the trigger for Israel to finally take direct action.

 

If they want to try something effective, they could stop trying to kill Israelis. The Israelis can go for long periods of time without attacking the Palestinians. If the Palestinians would try that for a while too, the Israelis wouldn't have to defend themselves. IIRC more than 10% of Israel's population is Palestinian. They seem to get along fine. They even hold elected positions in govt.

 

Meanwhile, the guys with all the hardware blow the bejesus out of their enemies and the death count, including non combatants is always 10 fold or more higher.

The death count of the combatants is inconsequential. The more the better if your intention is to make the enemy stop fighting.

 

The deaths of the civilians suck, but that's what happens when the people allegedly defending you use you as a human shield.

The Israelis do not target civilians in order to kill civilians (like the 'bad guys' constantly do). They're aiming at the fighters. But the fighters are hiding behind and within the civilians.

 

Why would they do that?

 

I think it's because they (the Palestinian fighters) don't give a shit about a the civilians as people, but they make a great tool for propaganda. They get to parade the dead bodies around and proclaim how evil the Jooooos are for killing all these poor innocent people.

 

What should Israel do when the fighters are hiding behind the coattails of the civilians? Stop fighting?

 

No offense Jack I don't mean to be an ass as I think you're a good guy but this seems like screwy logic.

No prob, Vigile. We're good . But I like your use of 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. I admit to seeing this in black and white (for the most part). The Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims have been killing Israelis since the day their country was formed and have NEVER quit. That makes them the bad guys. The Israelis may be more powerful than their enemies, but they've shown evidence of a desire for peace. And that, and the fact that they're defending themselves, make them the good guys.

 

ETA: I find defending and/or not condemning terrorists pretty damn screwy.

[Outback Jack]

The problem here is that this issue is so polarized that if one speaks against the Israeli that it is automatically assumed that one means that the Palestinians et. al. are automatically the angels.

No. It's just that whenever the Israelis defend themselves, the usual suspects always stand up for the Pale's and never have anything to say in defense of Israel.

 

However, western people especially Americans think that Israel is good guys. They are not. They are committing genocide.*

Funny how all that genocide being committed leaves all those Palestinians alive to fight some more. Israel could level the place. But they don't. Hell, they even gave Gaza back to the Pale's (in 2005 IIRC) and what did they do with it? They used it to launch rockets....again. So after several years of 'peace' (i.e. Israelis not killing Pale's; not the other way around) Israel decides to defend itself. That's what makes them the 'good guys'.

 

You have no proof of any of this.

Only decades of hearing almost constant reports about the latest suicide bomb targeted at Israelis going about their daily lives. Oh, and many periods of several years where Israel is NOT fighting against Palestinians, which seems to me like evidence that Israel would just like to stop fighting.

 

I am not saying support the Muslim side. I'm saying don't support the Israeli side, and call a spade a spade.

Okay, this may be nitpicking, but I've gotta check. You come right out and say the you don't support the Israelis. Your statement about the Muslims can be read as much less definitive. Would you say that you do not support the Muslims?

[Outback Jack]

You have no proof of any of this.

No proof, eh? I just did a little looking for something. Didn't find it but I did come up with this site. Here are some of highlights...

 

--May 8, 1970: Three Palestinian gunmen crossed the Lebanese border into the agricultural community of Avivim and ambushed the local school bus, killing nine children and three adults, and wounding 19 other children.

 

--September 4, 1972: Munich Olympic's Massacre--Members of "Black September," a PLO offshoot, attacked the Israeli Olympic team in their dormitory at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games in Germany.

 

--Beginning in the Fall of 1972: Israel's launched "Operation Wrath of God" to track down and kill members of the PLO involved in the Munich attack.

 

--April 9-10, 1973:Israel's "Operation Spring of Youth" was launched as part of the Israel's overall response to the Munich Olympic Attack. Special units of the Israeli Defense Forces attacked several PLO targets in Beirut and Sidon, Lebanon.

 

In this operation, three of the PLO leaders (Yusef Al Najjar, Kamal Adwan and Kamal Nasserin), were killed, along with several dozen other PLO personnel.

 

-- April 11, 1974: three guerillas of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), infiltrated the Israeli settlement of Kiryat Shmona from Lebanon, killing eighteen residents of an apartment building, including nine children.

 

--May 15, 1974: Fighters of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) entered the Israeli border town of Ma'alot from Lebanon, killed five adults and seizing hostages in a school building. All of the attackers died in battle with Israeli forces, but not before they killed 21 of the school's students.

 

--June 27-July 4, 1976: "Operation Entebbe": On June 27, an Air France flight from Tel Aviv was hijacked by four terrorists,

 

Israel responded with a commando raid on the night of July3/July 4. Around 100 Israeli troops in four military transport planes landed at night and rescued the hostages.

 

-- March 11, 1978: Eight Fatah guerillas entered Israel from Lebanon. After killing an American tourist on the beach, the guerillas hijacked a bus on the coastal road near Haifa. In the ensuing bus chase and battle, six Palestinian guerillas and 35 of the passengers died. Seventy-One civilians were wounded. Israel's response to this "Coastal Road Massacre" was to launch a full-scale invasion of South Lebanon in order to root out the PLO forces based there.

 

--July 27, 1980: Attack on Jewish school in Antwerp, Belgium by terrorists associated with the Palestinian Abu Nidal.

--Oct. 1, 1985: Israel's "Operation Wooden Leg," attempted to kill PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat with an air raid on his headquarters in Tunis, Tunisia.

Do you see a trend there? Hint: The Pales are always targeting civilians while Israel targets the leaders and perpetrators.

[pitchu]

Chef,

 

So my "tone" convinces you that I can't be rational on this topic and you've concluded that my relationship to the Jews in my life (as opposed to my being in the company of Palestinians) is at the root of my adamant stance, right?

 

I'll address your remarkable insight.

 

Part of my "tone" comes from my exasperation with you, whom I've always seen as being of sterling mind and searching nature. I hate what I see as the "official left position" indoctrination you've accepted through the past four years.

 

The other part has not to do with the Jews I've known but with the Arabs I've known. In all of my up-bringing I was surrounded almost entirely by Christians, and I didn't even know a Jew until I was 17. I soon started meeting Arabs, though.

 

There was the Jordanian husband of a friend of mine when I was in my 20's. My friend had a wonderful quirky mind which was put to no use because her husband wouldn't let her work outside the home and, instead, he did things like check the goo under the catsup bottle lid and the level of lint collection on the screen of the bathroom heater to make sure she was meaningfully occupied each day.

 

I worked for seven years at the Magic Castle in Hollywood where three of the waiters were from Afghanistan. Their superior attitude toward women was breathtaking to behold, and they, among all the waiters, were the ones who leered at and commented on the females.

 

I had a very brief affair with a man from Kuwait (a framed color photo of his king hung on the wall over his bed). It was brief because he called me one day to tell me I must come to him immediately. I thought something terrible must have happened. No. He wanted me for sex. I told him I had things scheduled for the day and he flew into an absolute screaming rage of demand. Affair over.

 

There was a woman from Iran (I know -- they're actually Persians, but she'd traveled extensively through the Arab states) with whom I became friends for about a year. I won't enumerate here her recounting of the horrors with which women lived, but these stories were shocking. Female genital mutilation being, as far as I'm concerned, the worst short of murder (which sometimes it is), and it's hard to get statistics on this practice, but it's done to Palestinian girls and women though likely not at the approximately 90% rate as in Egypt.

 

The reading I've done, over the years, on the status of women in the Arab world makes my blood run cold. The following, written September of '05 about violence against women in Palestine shows Amnesty International's blind anti-Israel position, blaming Israel for the then-violence against women, though that tradition among Arabs goes back for millenia, and women even do violence against other women under threat of reprisal and general fear and indoctrination.

 

There is never an excuse for rape and other violence against women, but Amnesty International recently concocted one. A report by Amnesty International (“AI”) on violence perpetrated against Palestinian women by Palestinian men in the West Bank and Gaza purported to be “part of the global AI campaign to stop violence against women.” Such violence is a serious problem, especially in the Arab and Muslim world, because so few leaders within these groups are prepared to condemn it and so many even justify it as a necessary means of maintaining family honor and male dominance. The AI report documents honor killings of women who had been raped. In one such case a 17 year old girl was murdered by her own mother after she was “repeatedly raped by two of her brothers.” In another case, a 21 year old “was forced to drink poison by her father” when she was found to be pregnant.

 

The AI report places substantial blame for these and other killings on – you guessed it – Israel! Here is AI’s conclusion, listing the causes of the violence directed against Palestinian women, presumably in the order of their importance: “Palestinian women in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are victims of multiple violations as a result of the escalation of the conflict, Israel’s policies, and a system of norms, traditions and laws which treat women as unequal members of society.” The “escalation of the conflict” (which AI blames primarily on Israel) and “Israel’s policies” rank higher than the “norms, traditions and laws which treat women as unequal.” The report asserts that violence against women has “increased” dramatically during the Israeli occupation and has reached “an unprecedented level” as a result of the “increased militarization of the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.” It is as if the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been violence-free for Palestinian women until the Israeli Occupation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershow...e-f_b_7584.html

 

Who talks about this? Who among western nations comes forward to say to male leaders of Arab states, "Until your women have full citizenship and are free from torture, abuse and murder at your hands, we will not trade with you, arm you, send you aid or do anything for you." Oh. I forgot. It's not Israel, but the Arab states who have the oil. Women are expendable. Oil is not.

 

After reading about the unrelenting early killings and massacres of Jews by Arabs in what is now Israel and Palestine, I long ago came to the conclusion that the hatred of Arabs for Jews comes from the Jewish threat to their male dominance over women. It's all about women as property. Arab men couldn't stand living with the example of the freedom given to the Jewish women in their midst. Read contemporaneous reports about what some of the Arab men complained of when Westernized Jews started turning swamps into orchards in the late 1880's. It wasn't about the orchards. It wasn't about the jobs they were given by the Jews. It wasn't Jewish religion. It was about the women: Jewish women being able to represent the views of their communities at joint meetings with Arabs; Jewish women not draped from crown to toe in fabric. Jewish women as threat. That's why Arabs don't give a shit about targeting civilians, and, in fact, prefer it, because it's the nature of Israeli/Jewish -- and all western -- civil society between the sexes that drives them to madness.

 

Of course there are exceptions, but it's my belief that, on the whole, they are crazy fuckers. They are wrong, and I am not sympathetic to them. Only to their women. Let Israel take over the entire Middle East, as far as I'm concerned.

 

As a woman, I have a "tone" about this sort of thing, Chef. About the indecency of the political left (to which I consider I belong) judging rectitude on the basis of whether you have bombs strapped to you or an organized military. About their absolute uncaring that they're calling people who accept half their population as equals the "bad guys" and the people who feel empowered to rape, mutilate and murder half their population the "victims."

 

I have a "tone" about this. Maybe being female is my monkeysphere, Chef.

[pitchu]

Here's a breakdown on some of the earliest attacks on Jews by Arabs in that area. With a history like this, I don't wonder why some of those ugly words about Palestinians, which you quoted, could have been uttered by Israeli Jews, Chef. For even uglier contemporary words about Jews from Arabs just visit memri.org sometime.

 

* "From late 1919, Arab attacks on Jewish settlements became more frequent and relentless, particularly in the Jordan Valley and the Galilee."

 

* "1920. Three days of rioting in Jerusalem, in which Arab mobs fell upon Jews with sticks, stones and knives. Five Jews and four Arabs were killed and 211 Jews and 21 Arabs were wounded."

 

* "1 March 1920 In an attack by large numbers of Arabs from the village of Halsa, eight Jews were killed ..."

 

* "In April 1920 Arabs rioted against Jews during the Nebi Musa festival."

 

* On May 1st, 1921 “Arabs of Jaffa murderously attacked Jewish inhabitants of the town and Arab raids were made on five Jewish rural settlements. Forty-seven Jews were killed and 146 wounded."

 

* "On May Day, 1921, Arab mobs attacked Jewish residents of Jaffa and stormed the Zionist Immigration Center, killing 13 persons. On the 3rd May Hebrew colonies at Kafr Saba and Ain Hal were looted. On the 5th May the village of Petah Tiqvah was attacked by several thousand armed Arabs in semi-military formation, and was saved from destruction only by the arrival of several squadrons of cavalry. On the 6th May Arabs besieged Haderah and attempted an attack on Rehovoth. In these disorders 47 Jews were killed and 146 wounded, mostly by Arabs, and 48 Arabs were killed and 73 wounded, mostly by police and military action."

 

*"In 1929 general anti-Jewish riots spread throughout Palestine. From August 23rd to the 29th, “murderous attacks were made on the Jews in various parts of the country. The most violent attacks were those against the old established Jewish communities at Hebron and Safed; there were also attacks in Jerusalem and Jaffa and against several Jewish rural settlements. There was little retaliation by Jews, of whom 133 were killed and 339 wounded.”

 

Another account reads, "... Arabs armed with knives and clubs invaded the new city of Jerusalem and began a massacre of the Jews. On the following day more than 60 Jews were killed at Hebron, and in the succeeding days a number of Jewish colonies were attacked. The police had to open fire to prevent outrages in Nablus and Jaffa, and Arabs attacked the Jewish quarter in Safed, killing or wounding 45 persons. In all, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded, and six Jewish colonies were destroyed. There were 116 reported Arab deaths, many of them as a result of police and military activities."

 

* "The years 1930 and 1931 saw a series of terrorist murders of Jews. In October 1931, Arab demonstrations and riots directed against the Government, as well as against the Jews, took place in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa and Babes."

 

* “By July [1938] the Arab gangs had become thoroughly organized and their activities co-ordinated. Rebel courts were set up by which many loyal Arabs and a number of Jews who had been abducted were tried and executed in the following months … the Old City of Jerusalem became a rallying point of bandits from which acts of violence, murder, and intimidation were organized and perpetrated freely and with impunity.”

 

* For almost three years (1936-39) there was a general Arab uprising protesting Jewish immigration which resulted in many Jews being murdered and beaten including yet another massacre of 20 Jews in Tiberius.

[edited]

http://www.middleeastpiece.com/palestinianviolence.html

 

(And, by the way, can some people here stop acting like Jews were/are the equivalent of European conquerors of New World Indians? Please!? Jews have always been there!)

 

More massacres, Folks!

 

This list contains a number of massacres of Jews by the hands of Arabs only between when the UN partition plan was passed (November 29, 1947), and by May 15, 1948. The list is probably incomplete, so updates are welcome (Source: Seth Frantzman, Jerusalem Post Guest Column).

 

December 1947 - Small kibbutzim were subjected to attacks - Gvulot, Ben-Shemen, Holon, Safed, Bat Yam and Kfar Yavetz. Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs around Palestine.

 

December 30, 1947 - 39 Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa’s oil refinery

 

January 16, 1948 - 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion

 

February 22, 1948 - 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem’s Rehov Ben-Yehuda

 

February 29, 1948 - 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry.

 

January and February 1948 - Rishon Lezion, Yehiam, Mishmar Hayarden, Tirat Zvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein Hanatziv, Magdiel, Mitzpe Hagalil and Ma’anit were all subjected to attacks. Arab attackers also bombedThe Palestine Post

April 13, 1948 - 35 Jew were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre

 

March and April - Assault on Hartuv by 400 Arabs based in the village of Ishwa and an attack on Kfar Darom by members of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Jewish Agency, the Solel Boneh building in Haifa and an Egged bus were bombed.

 

May 15, 1948 - 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc.

 

During this timespan(November 29, 1947 to May 15, 1948), a total of 1,256 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. These deaths were caused by Arab militias, gangs, terrorists and army units which attacked every place of Jewish inhabitation in Palestine. During this time, all Jewish villages in the Negev were attacked, and Jews had to go about the country in convoys. In every major city where Jews and Arabs lived in mixed neighborhoods the Jewish areas came under attack. This was true in Haifa’s Hadar Hacarmel as well as Jerusalem’s Old City.

 

The above list does not include Jews killed and synagogues burned in Arab countries during the timespan in question. However, it is known thatmore than 100 Jews were massacred and synagogues were burned in Aleppo and Aden, driving thousands of Jews from their homes.

http://middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/a...ws-before-1948/