The Religion Of Sports

[woodsmoke]

Exactly, Neon. I was fortunate in that my parents never really forced me into athletics (music, maybe, but even that was more of a strong suggestion), but my elementary school was happy to make up for that with mandatory participation in PE intermurals. Gods, but I hated flag football.

 

Go for it Woody, I left myself wide open with the use of "shuttlecock" just to give you an opportunity to express some humor. I would be disappointed if you let it pass.

Heh, I'm not creative enough to actually come up with the joke, just to note the opportunity. Though I do appreciate your appreciation of my equal-opportunity offensive humor.

[twincats]

I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring. What annoys me are those parents who think that absolutely everyone must play sports even if the child has no athletic skills and is terrible at it and obviously not enjoying it. You don't see parents insisting that children should play chess because it helps sharpens the mind or whatever but for some reason, kids are expected to like chasing a ball around for two hours.

 

And I don't mind people who think sports are boring even if I like them!

 

I have to admit I do enjoy NFL season and my hubby could care less. I also enjoy the occasional hockey game (I was way more into it in high school. In the 70's. In southern California. Go Figure!) I played soccer in Jr. High (AYSO and my parents came to maybe two games) and lots of volleyball at church. If all the sports went away, I'd miss NFL, but I'd live.

 

A friend of mine and I also coached an AYSO girls team for a while when we were in H.S. It was fun, but the parents were sucky to deal with; nobody's kid EVER played enough even though every player played at least half the game according to the AYSO rules. It's the parents that wrecked it because the whole league is about playing for fun and making sure everyone gets to participate.

[ClaraOlive]

I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring. What annoys me are those parents who think that absolutely everyone must play sports even if the child has no athletic skills and is terrible at it and obviously not enjoying it. You don't see parents insisting that children should play chess because it helps sharpens the mind or whatever but for some reason, kids are expected to like chasing a ball around for two hours.

 

Oh that's awfully kind of you to "not mind" that people like sports.

 

My mother forced me into taking piano lessons for years even though I was terrible at it, hated practicing, and have poor pitch and rhythm. She wasn't able to take lessons for very long when she was a child, even though she wanted to, and in the same way that some sports parents try to relive their interests through their children, she was determined to see her own child taking the lessons that she couldn't.

 

Yet a lot of people who condemn sports parents have no problem with making a child take music lessons because they think it's somehow different, somehow beneficial.

 

But I don't mind people that like music. (See how it kind of comes off as condescending?)

[Neon Genesis]

When did I say I somehow have no problem with people making a child take music lessons? Seriously, what's your problem? Are you saying we should all agree with you that sports are great and the new savior for society or something? You remind of the people I mention in my opening post that everyone must love sports and anyone who doesn't must be condescending.

[Japedo]

I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring. What annoys me are those parents who think that absolutely everyone must play sports even if the child has no athletic skills and is terrible at it and obviously not enjoying it. You don't see parents insisting that children should play chess because it helps sharpens the mind or whatever but for some reason, kids are expected to like chasing a ball around for two hours.

 

Oh that's awfully kind of you to "not mind" that people like sports.

 

 

 

But I don't mind people that like music. (See how it kind of comes off as condescending?)

 

 

I must be a real evil parent, I heavily encouraged (forced) all 4 of my kids to do at least one sport per year as well as learn/play an instrument every year up until they reached high school. All 4 of my kids continued with sports into high school, only two stuck with music as well. The ones that didn't stick with music had to fill their time with something else constructive. Their choice... Volunteering, clubs, something. One of my twins is more introverted and he kicks ass at Chess, Video games, computer programing and the like. Chess helps with problem solving, and strategy, who wouldn't encourage their kids to succeed at what ever it was they loved? That twin joined the Computer club at school, he also loves snowboarding and skateboarding. Yes the things he loves to do is mainly by himself, so? He still competes and has lots of confidence and support from the rest of us. In saying that he also joined the town Football team and loved every second of it. He's also the only hunter in the family, it's something he enjoys doing. No one in this family gives him shit for it, it's absurd to give someone a hard time for what works for them.

 

My husband and I didn't to it because we are lacking in anything, but because we wanted to make sure they were well rounded people. Sports helps with teamwork, commitment, character, and leadership skills. Being good at a sport isn't the main part of sports at elementary, middle school or high school levels, maybe in the pro's but lets be realistic. Some sports was more directed to the individual such as skiing/snow boarding, Running or swimming. My kids weren't allowed to drop the sport once they started, they had to finish thru to the end no matter how bad the team sucked, or how horrible coaches were. Life is full of assholes, the sooner kids learn how to adjust and function with them the better. If they were injured they still went to practice/games for support, that's the commitment part. I make no apology's for it either, After this year I'll have 4 kids in college

 

Sports might be tribal, but our family (as a whole) enjoys it with friends and family. It's something we love to do. We go to Major League, Pro games as well as College, and town games. Sports isn't for everyone, but it works for us. Music is the same, We go to many local plays and concerts as well as professional ones. We dragged our kids to plays and musicals their whole life, it's part of everyday life for us. I haven't heard that it's damaged them... so far..

[Vomit Comet]

I liked fighting sports better than team sports. Boxing, etc. Just you and one other guy, that's it. *WHAM BAM WHAM*

 

Despite popular ideology, team sports sometimes fosters not-so-good behavior in young folks if the adults in charge aren't careful, and it's often too easily overlooked. I'll have to dig up some published research about that, perhaps.

[ClaraOlive]

When did I say I somehow have no problem with people making a child take music lessons? Seriously, what's your problem? Are you saying we should all agree with you that sports are great and the new savior for society or something? You remind of the people I mention in my opening post that everyone must love sports and anyone who doesn't must be condescending.

 

Oh give me a break, this entire thread started as implicit criticism of those who like sports. I never said that sports were the new savior for society, but I guess you can't make a point without putting words in other people's mouths.

 

I didn't say that YOU had no problem with people who force children into other activities, I was just pointing out that many people complain about sports as if that was the issue instead of the issue being about forcing children into activities they aren't suited for. You (collective) have been acting like there's an implicit problem with sports instead of with people's behavior, which can reveal itself in a number of activities.

 

I don't think that it's wrong to make children TRY different things as they grow up. I do think it's wrong to make a child do an activity year after year after year that is making them unhappy.

[Vomit Comet]

Lookie what I found, from the #1 sociology journal in all the land. Anybody wants to read the full thing, drop me a PM.

 

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Kreager, Derek A. 2007. "Unnecessary Roughness? School Sports, Peer Networks, and Male Adolescent Violence." American Sociological Review 72:705-724.

 

This article examines the extent to which participation in high school interscholastic sports contributes to male violence. Deriving competing hypotheses from social control, social learning, and masculinity theories, I use data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health to test if (1) type of sport and (2) peer athletic participation, contribute to the risks of male serious fighting. Contrary to social control expectations, analyses suggest that athletic involvement fails to inhibit male violence. Moreover, there is a strong relationship between contact sports and violence. Football players and wrestlers, as opposed to baseball, basketball, tennis, and other athletes, are significantly more likely than nonathletic males to be involved in a serious fight. Additionally, the direct effect of football is explained by the football participation of individuals' peers. Males whose friends play football are more likely to fight than other males, supporting perspectives that emphasize peer contexts as important mediators. Overall, findings are consistent with the expectations of social learning and masculinity arguments. The theoretical and policy implications of these results are discussed. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

[Neon Genesis]

Oh give me a break, this entire thread started as implicit criticism of those who like sports. I never said that sports were the new savior for society, but I guess you can't make a point without putting words in other people's mouths.

What about this post here then?

Sports saved my life in high school, and I'm introverted.

These are your words, not mine.

 

I didn't say that YOU had no problem with people who force children into other activities, I was just pointing out that many people complain about sports as if that was the issue instead of the issue being about forcing children into activities they aren't suited for. You (collective) have been acting like there's an implicit problem with sports instead of with people's behavior, which can reveal itself in a number of activities.

Then why did you start complaining about my post being condescending if you didn't mean me as an individual but the thread as a whole? That's like saying I'm being condescending if I dare to disagree with country music fans that country music is the greatest thing since sliced bread but respect their right to like country music. Ever heard of the phrase, agree to disagree?

 

I don't think that it's wrong to make children TRY different things as they grow up. I do think it's wrong to make a child do an activity year after year after year that is making them unhappy.

Isn't that kind of what my original post in this thread was about? Quote from my original post

There's nothing wrong with letting kids have the opportunity to play sports and it can be a great way to teach kids self-esteem and teamwork but this only works if 1)you're already popular or 2)you're actually good at sports. If the child is horrible at it or doesn't fit in with the team because they aren't popular, then I fail to see how this is going to boost their self-esteem.

Now what was that about putting words into other people's mouths? Perhaps you should practice what you preach?

[woodsmoke]

My mother forced me into taking piano lessons for years even though I was terrible at it, hated practicing, and have poor pitch and rhythm. She wasn't able to take lessons for very long when she was a child, even though she wanted to, and in the same way that some sports parents try to relive their interests through their children, she was determined to see her own child taking the lessons that she couldn't.

IMO, this is just as bad as the folks who make their kids join a sports league they hate. Most of us here may dislike sports, but that's secondary to the actual problem of parents forcing their kids to do something they don't enjoy because it's supposedly "good for them."

 

Sports helps with teamwork, commitment, character, and leadership skills. Being good at a sport isn't the main part of sports at elementary, middle school or high school levels, maybe in the pro's but lets be realistic.

I hate to disagree with you, J, but that's simply not the case where I grew up. Not for the kids involved, anyway. Maybe the adults think it's all about teamwork and character building, but they'd be sadly mistaken. When I was growing up, as early as 5th grade most of the athletically talented kids were already starting to build and enforce an exclusive hierarchy. By the end of 6th grade everyone well knew who was and wasn't a jock, and it only got worse from there.

 

'Course, a significant part of the problem with sports is the fact they're so intertwined with the already fucked-up school system. Rounding up every kid of a certain age range and putting them together on a field regardless of athletic ability makes no more sense than rounding them up into a single class regardless of intelligence. I enjoy a friendly competition, but nothing kills that faster than someone who's there to win. I don't just mean someone who's doing her/his best, I mean the kind of people whose enjoyment of the game is directly dependent on whether they/their team has the biggest number when the clock stops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy winning as much as anyone else, but in chasing that goal I never forget that, ultimately, I'm playing a game. Winning is great, but at the end of the day it doesn't really mean anything unless all involved had fun along the way.

 

Which isn't to say those who are more focused on winning are necessarily wrong to do so (despite how judgmental my above paragraph may seem), but our attitudes and approaches aren't really compatible and we really shouldn't be playing together, as it's likely just going to frustrate everyone involved. As I noted above, however, scholastic athletics generally don't bother to distinguish between those who are just there to have fun and those who are there to compete and win, and I think that's where a lot of the bad blood comes from.

[Vomit Comet]

The jocks weren't that bad at my high school. It wasn't a ghetto school but there was a fair amount of transplanted gangbangers from much badder 'hoods, so that helped keep the jocks in line, letting them know they weren't at the top of the schoolyard totem pole. Also, the scumbag ratio was high enough to where if the jocks went around systematically victimizing freaks and weirdos, they would have eventually overplayed their hand and the retaliation would've been swift and brutal.

 

But I've heard plenty of horror stories about other high schools and how the jocks would treat other kids. Shit ain't right.

[woodsmoke]

Yeah, my family's pretty firmly middle class, so the closest thing to a gangster any of the schools I ever went to had was some wannabe rich white kid with a car-sized sub-woofer and an artificial chip on his shoulder. The cowboys were actually closer to a gang than anyone else.

[Vomit Comet]

Wasn't there a lot of overlap between the cowboys and the jocks? Symbolically/culturally at least?

 

There were "real" cowboys at my high school, too. In fact, where I was from was mostly cows and oil before it got very rapidly suburbanized in the 80s. It was a truly weird corner of L.A. County where all the contradictions were in one place.

[woodsmoke]

In other areas, certainly. Where my dad grew up, the scholastic football season was actually during the summer 'til just about 25-30 years ago, on account of autumn being harvest and hunting seasons, so all the big, athletic farm boys (c/w)ouldn't play. The town where I grew up is kind of an anomaly, though. It's about 35 miles outside SLC, with plenty of rural country surrounding it, but it's really more of a far-flung suburb than a rural community. Most of the jocks had never even seen a cow up close, and precious few of the "cowboys" had done an honest day's ranching in all their lives, though their parents might own some land and a few cattle, possibly a horse or three.

[ClaraOlive]

Oh give me a break, this entire thread started as implicit criticism of those who like sports. I never said that sports were the new savior for society, but I guess you can't make a point without putting words in other people's mouths.

What about this post here then?

Sports saved my life in high school, and I'm introverted.

These are your words, not mine.

 

I said that sports saved MY life. How on earth did you get out of that I considered sports a savior for SOCIETY or for anyone else besides myself? I'm flattered that you think I represent all of society, but that's just not the case.

 

You were being individually condescending in my opinion.

 

Isn't that kind of what my original post in this thread was about?

 

Not really, first you equated sports to religion (which given the purpose of this entire board, you must have known was inflammatory), then you acted like you were a really big person to be reservedly accepting of people who liked sports.

[Neon Genesis]

then you acted like you were a really big person to be reservedly accepting of people who liked sports.

You still haven't explained how I'm being "condescending" just because I'm trying to agree to disagree here. What do you want from me? Are you just being rude on purpose?

[ClaraOlive]

If you can't see how this statement is condescending: I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring - I really can't help you out.

[Tabula Rasa]

If you can't see how this statement is condescending: I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring - I really can't help you out.

 

 

Clara, you don't know me that well, but please hear me out. I don't believe that Neon meant to be condescending. I think he meant that it didn't bother him that people liked sports though he personally found it boring.. What bothers him are the people who become fanatics about it.

 

 

 

Tab

[Jubilant]

I must be a real evil parent,

 

Muhahahahaha! You aren't evil...in fact, you're one of those sports fanatics that I adore. :-)

[Japedo]

Sports helps with teamwork, commitment, character, and leadership skills. Being good at a sport isn't the main part of sports at elementary, middle school or high school levels, maybe in the pro's but lets be realistic.

I hate to disagree with you, J, but that's simply not the case where I grew up. Not for the kids involved, anyway. Maybe the adults think it's all about teamwork and character building, but they'd be sadly mistaken. When I was growing up, as early as 5th grade most of the athletically talented kids were already starting to build and enforce an exclusive hierarchy. By the end of 6th grade everyone well knew who was and wasn't a jock, and it only got worse from there.

 

'Course, a significant part of the problem with sports is the fact they're so intertwined with the already fucked-up school system. Rounding up every kid of a certain age range and putting them together on a field regardless of athletic ability makes no more sense than rounding them up into a single class regardless of intelligence. I enjoy a friendly competition, but nothing kills that faster than someone who's there to win. I don't just mean someone who's doing her/his best, I mean the kind of people whose enjoyment of the game is directly dependent on whether they/their team has the biggest number when the clock stops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy winning as much as anyone else, but in chasing that goal I never forget that, ultimately, I'm playing a game. Winning is great, but at the end of the day it doesn't really mean anything unless all involved had fun along the way.

 

Which isn't to say those who are more focused on winning are necessarily wrong to do so (despite how judgmental my above paragraph may seem), but our attitudes and approaches aren't really compatible and we really shouldn't be playing together, as it's likely just going to frustrate everyone involved. As I noted above, however, scholastic athletics generally don't bother to distinguish between those who are just there to have fun and those who are there to compete and win, and I think that's where a lot of the bad blood comes from.

 

 

Woody, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. While there is surly one or two assholes on teams, that's my entire point. Why allow the few to ruin it for you? Assholes and obnoxious people unfortunately are in every aspect of our lives, the sooner kids learn to deal with them and stand up to them, the better off they'll be. Don't think for one second that in different peer groups they don't try to establish a pecking order, sports or no it's human nature. Many bullys thrive in that kind of environment if people don't stand up to them, the more people submit to them the more sense of power over others they obtain. I have always tried to instill in my kids to do what's right and to stand up when they see shenanigans going on. People's worth will never be measured on how good or bad they are at playing a game. Having talent in area's doesn't mean it gives someone a free pass to shit on others. Kids that are cocky or obnoxious should be benched and that is the fault of the coaches. Coaches fail on their part when they reward that sort of behavior. Overlooking bad behavior encourages more bad behavior

 

Like I said, Sports worked for us as a family. I kept my kids very busy so they didn't have time to get into mischief or run with trouble. Yes it was all part of my master evil plan...

 

I also personally worship at the alter of the Red sox and Patriots. I don't see how people worshiping sports as it were has any effect on those that don't, unless of course they are Yankee Worshipers... .

[Neon Genesis]

If you can't see how this statement is condescending: I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring - I really can't help you out.

Aren't you being condescending yourself by saying that I can't be helped to understand why you're getting offended over me daring to have a different opinion than you, as if you somehow think I'm more stupid than you for not agreeing?

[ClaraOlive]

Aren't you being condescending yourself by saying that I can't be helped to understand why you're getting offended over me daring to have a different opinion than you, as if you somehow think I'm more stupid than you for not agreeing?

 

What is condescending is NOT that you have a different opinion about sports, but that you seem to have the attitude that "I KNOW that sports are stupid, but I'm graciously willing to tolerate those stupid quasi-religious jocks who don't know any better". It's the "I don't mind people... "part that really comes off wrong.

[Neon Genesis]

Again, where am I coming off that way in my posts? As Tabula stated, the only people I have a problem with are those who are fanatical about sports, the same as I have a problem with people who are fanatical about other interests like music or movies etc. and you seem to be living up to that reputation. Do you think if I was trying to be offensive that I would still be trying to respond to you to understand why you think I am? Again, haven't you ever heard of the phrase agree to disagree? My point of my thread was that fanatical sports fan CAN be like fanatical religious believers, NOT that they all are like that, bu not wanting to make generalizations here is apparently condescending? But If you're think you're helping things here, you're only reinforcing what I said in my opening post about fanatical sports fans.

[ClaraOlive]

But If you're think you're helping things here, you're only reinforcing what I said in my opening post about fanatical sports fans.

 

So me pointing out an instance where I felt you were being condescending makes me fanatical? And yet where you totally misrepresented what I said (saying that I was calling sports a savior for "society" when I said no such thing), that was you "agreeing to disagree"? Cute.

[Ouroboros]

If you can't see how this statement is condescending: I don't mind people that like sports even if I think sports are boring - I really can't help you out.

Sorry, but I can't see how that is condescending from Neon. To "not mind" someone is basically saying, "they have the right to feel, think, and believe the way they do, and I'm not against that, even though I'm personally of a different opinion." That is not condescending, but rather an open invitation to diversity to flourish, and in that diversity admitting to be of a different opinion. What's wrong with that?

 

Personally, I don't mind people who love sports either. I played sports when I was kid, and only a little as an adult. I hate watching sports on TV thought. But I love doing something myself. I also played instruments as a kid, and as an adult. And I love that too. And I don't mind sports fanatics, and I don't mind people who play instruments, and I don't mind people having different opinions, and I don't mind you loving sports and hating when someone else don't love it. But being riled up over petty interpretations of some sentence, and making this thread getting out of hand all because of emotions, that I might "mind".

 

I think you're being a bit oversensitive here, and I'm asking you to back off a bit.

 

If this doesn't end now, I will close this thread.