Why Christians Believe We Are Ex-Christians

[HRDWarrior]

After reading a number of posts on here to include nova's "I'm Sorry" topic, I really got to wondering if most christians really have any idea why people REALLY deconvert. So, in order to answer that question, I went to a christian forum and posed the question to them - so far, a rather wide variety of answers, but I would say none of them seem to hit on the primary reason(s) I see people giving for their deconversion - that, or it's a very small part of the picture if they do happen to get close.

 

For those who are interested in reading the responses, here is a link to the thread - so far it's only one day old, but there's a bit of a sampling already. I wanted to keep this poll just for christians to respond because I didn't want their answers to change because they were led - I really want to know how off base they are in this subject.

 

For your enjoyment (or otherwise):

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7401601/

 

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care? Can't blame their God for it? Can't blame their god for what their book says it is? That's what people tell them? They don't actually KNOW any deconverts that they've actually talked to?

[Shyone]

 

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care? Can't blame their God for it? Can't blame their god for what their book says it is? That's what people tell them? They don't actually KNOW any deconverts that they've actually talked to?

If they admit it's bullshit, they will have to stop believing?

 

If they research the reasons, they will see that the reasons are valid - and everyone that has every looked into the matter has already deconverted?

 

I suppose that if you want to know how they got their answers, you'll have to do another poll.

[HRDWarrior]

Ya, I'd probably have to do another poll for that one, but my main concern was to see if they really are that off base - which thus far, seems to be the case!

[GraphicsGuy]

Above all else, the Xian CANNOT blame God or their church or their entire religion for ANY problems. The problems all lie within the person themselves.

 

Xianity is a religion entirely built on self-debasing. "I am shit and of no value. I need God in my life to give me purpose and he will only love me if I do what he says."

 

"The cult is all. The cult is never wrong. It cannot be a lie. People who leave are not unwilling to give themselves to the cult entirely. They have hardened their hearts and turned their backs on the truth."

[Neon Genesis]

Reading the one poster who quoted John to prove their argument was enough to make me stop reading the rest. This reminds me that one time in Sunday school at my parents' church, the fundies were studying that horrible apologetic book UnChristian and they quote the book to prove that non-xtians don't believe in God because they were hurt by false churches and this was the only reason why anyone wasn't a Christian. I tried to argue with them that they're making sweeping generalizations and they shouldn't judge others but they just ignored what I said and argued "but the book says so, so it must be true!" and this was right after the teacher quoted where the author says Christians should listen to people more, which contradicts the entire premise of the book since the entire premise is based on their lack of listening to what people are saying and not paying attention to reality. Do fundies use arguments from authority in all their arguments, not just with the bible?

[Jedah]

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care?

 

Psychological Projection.

 

Christianity is a religion that is intolerant by design. Members of many sects are encouraged ( or in the more fundy ones: required )to look at non members as sinners/deceived/rebellious/Damned to hell and whatnot. Someone who actually buys into this would be far to blinded by bullshit to even begin to understand beliefs other than their own. So what do these clueless wonders do when asked about deconverts? Simple, they project. They think inside the box of lies they have been told about other ideals, and think of why they would deconvert based on those lies. The result is a bunch of shallow and ridiculous reasons that are then projected onto the supposed Ex-members.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I can understand where some of them are coming from, because I was similar to that back when I was a believer. I just could not conceive of the possibility that Christianity wasn't absolute truth, and so I could not conceive of the possibility that a "believer" could become a nonbeliever on logical grounds. I thought that a "relationship with Jesus" irreversibly changes the believer, and that those who left the faith were never true believers to begin with.

 

And, of course, IF the notion of a "relationship with Jesus" and the "Holy Spirit indwelling" people really were true, then that would make perfect sense. The problem, obviously to us, is that it is NOT true, and therefore believers like that will never be able to understand why someone such as myself would leave unless they can get past their preconceived notions and think outside the box, which is extremely difficult for a thoroughly brainwashed believer to do (been there, done that and can testify).

 

I now feel bad about the way I misjudged others when I was a Christian. I really couldn't help it, though, because I had been programmed to think that way.

[HRDWarrior]

I can understand where some of them are coming from, because I was similar to that back when I was a believer. I just could not conceive of the possibility that Christianity wasn't absolute truth, and so I could not conceive of the possibility that a "believer" could become a nonbeliever on logical grounds. I thought that a "relationship with Jesus" irreversibly changes the believer, and that those who left the faith were never true believers to begin with.

 

And, of course, IF the notion of a "relationship with Jesus" and the "Holy Spirit indwelling" people really were true, then that would make perfect sense. The problem, obviously to us, is that it is NOT true, and therefore believers like that will never be able to understand why someone such as myself would leave unless they can get past their preconceived notions and think outside the box, which is extremely difficult for a thoroughly brainwashed believer to do (been there, done that and can testify).

 

I now feel bad about the way I misjudged others when I was a Christian. I really couldn't help it, though, because I had been programmed to think that way.

 

Yes, me too, but I really never ran into any ex-christians when I was one, so it was a moot point, although if 10 years ago you told me I'd be where I am today, I would have laughed and figured you were off your rocker!

 

But I would have had similar responses, but then again, I never met anyone who actually deconverted (some who left churches, but not the faith itself).

[PaulQ]

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care? Can't blame their God for it? Can't blame their god for what their book says it is? That's what people tell them? They don't actually KNOW any deconverts that they've actually talked to?

 

It's because they get all their information about ex-Christians, atheists, witches, etc. from the sermons they hear every Sunday, and those sermons are the gosh-darned gospel truth. That way we can't fool them with our supposed lies.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I find this quote from the first response to be interesting:

 

The people I have know to leave have mostly either left because of hurt and harm done or because they have simply drifted away, or because they have ceased to perceive the church (locally or globally) as relevant anymore (for right or wrong).

 

Other than with my wife and one other friend, I haven't really discussed my current lack of faith with any of my Christian friends and relatives. Thus, of those who are aware that I've stopped going to church, a lot of them could very easily assume that I "simply drifted away," because they really don't have a clue.

 

So, I have to wonder about those that this poster was referring to; did they just haphazardly drift away or did they come to logical reasons to reject the faith but not be vocal about it with believers? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if a lot of them are the latter.

[John09]

Thanks for the interesting read. I'm not surprised at all by the comments, since I used to have some of those very opinions myself. It only goes to show that they really do not understand.

 

I did think it was interesting that one poster said that if someone leaves christianity because they see contradictions, fallacies and falsehoods in the bible, then that person loves the bible more than god. This is really bizarre reasoning. I have no love for the bible whatsoever. I really think you have to sort of make up reasons for something you just don't understand.

[qec]

I can understand where some of them are coming from, because I was similar to that back when I was a believer. I just could not conceive of the possibility that Christianity wasn't absolute truth, and so I could not conceive of the possibility that a "believer" could become a nonbeliever on logical grounds.

 

What I bold-ed is what you might call a really good mindfuck. Who benefits the most from the traditional religion in a given society as it morphs into conservative and liberal forms over time? Simple answer: The Elite. Divide peoples' minds with unfalsifiable nonsense and you placate and subsequently guide the masses!! Then it's so much easier to get people to do what you want them to do because you then merely appeal to their "God" within a political context, and Presto! They have thoughts in the back of their head which they then mistake for "God" speaking to them, when in reality those thoughts are merely their own thoughts that conveniently lead them to conclusions that support the ones the ruling Elite of their party want them to support!! Divide and Conquer, starting with the Mind of the Common Man. It's like magic really. And then if they stray from the religion into evil "cults" (usually just the competition in general but sometimes actual sociological cults) they are told they are guilty of heresy and must repent.. It's all a system of control, in a way. The Elite use it successfully, because most of them have little or no actual morality, or are willing to set things aside to manipulate the bejesus out of people who either just happened to be or were deliberately or semi-deliberately indoctrinated with particular forms of "God", thus predisposing them to being receptive to said Elite's political message.

[agnosticator]

...but then again, I never met anyone who actually deconverted (some who left churches, but not the faith itself).

 

When I met someone who deconverted and was willing to share, he definitely helped point me towards deconversion. I was beginning to question things at that time. I don't recall what I said that opened him up to discussion. It must have been God's will that we met!

 

Other than that one person, I knew no one who wasn't christian. Those christians who found out about my apostasy all said I was mad at God or just bitter.

[Franko47]

I've noticed so far, that some of their responses are reasonable - they certainly seem aware that people might leave Christianity because of the way they'be been treated - at least there is some awareness of that.

 

On the other hand, they are always attracted to this idea that we've "traded logic for faith" (imagine that) and that we've rejected "God's authority" because we "want to live it up". As well, "they were never really one of us in the first place, confirmed by the Holy Ghost, etc".

 

It's interesting to note that once again, there is always this resistance to believe that atheists or non-believers can be responsible moral people, living the same kind of ethical and virtue-based lives like themselves. How naive, if not arrogant. But then again, religion breeds a sense of "childishness" to everything, I've noticed. Sometimes I just feel like telling Christians and other religious people to "Grow-the-****-up"

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When I was a believer, I studied cults and other religions, but it was all theoretical. I didn't speak to Mormons and JWs to try to understand them, but only to deconvert them from their errors and convert them to mine. I didn't know anyone that had actually deconverted from Christianity, so I could only theorize on why people left the church.

 

Here are a few "reasons" I remember thinking about those that left:

"Valued orgasms more than salvation"

"Enjoyed her boyfriend more than the truth"

"Confused by demons"

"Wanted to fit in with the world"

 

Now that I'm on the outside, I try not to theorize too much about why people are still believers, but talk to them to see if they really are, or are going along for the ride and are afraid to speak their own concerns. For those friends of mine that are adamant believers, I find that X is their source of comfort and psychological protection, so I leave them alone for the most part. I still have a couple of fanatic "friends" that I don't spend any time with now. These ones are so entrenched that they resort to huge leaps of illogic that they see as a clear plan of God. They cannot be reasoned with. But I plant seeds where possible.

[Andy]

Reading the one poster who quoted John to prove their argument was enough to make me stop reading the rest.

That's about as far as I got as well. The old "you were never a true christian" argument.

 

Okay I've read a few more and I can see what you mean about some people getting close but not really seeing the whole picture. This is a perfect example:

 

Because of rejection, scorn, shunning and bigoted attitudes by Christians which leads to emotional and spiritual Abuse.

 

Basically all the head-tripping that happens in a group of people.

 

It's human dynamics.

 

Look at the group dynamics of High School Kids. The popular kids, the nerds etc. It's all about fitting in with the group, and those that can't or who refuse to change are shunned and mocked.

 

Same thing happens at the worksplace and church.

At least he's not blaming the individual who deconverts, as many of them do.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'm actually a little surprised that "Due to 'logical' reasons" is getting some votes. Perhaps some of those Christians are questioning a little themselves....

[Deva]

I thought this was an interesting answer:

 

Despite what some may say, I believe we all believe [in Him]

 

So, you see, we all believe in BibleGod no matter what we say!

 

Yet, earlier in the same post we see:

 

Some give up for a variety of reasons - but in the end, they all boildown to one thing - disobedience - which is the same as disbelief

 

Huh?

[mwc]

I thought this was an interesting answer:

 

Despite what some may say, I believe we all believe [in Him]

 

So, you see, we all believe in BibleGod no matter what we say!

 

Yet, earlier in the same post we see:

 

Some give up for a variety of reasons - but in the end, they all boildown to one thing - disobedience - which is the same as disbelief

 

Huh?

Disbelief==disobedience. So you're not disbelieving you're just disobeying. So to say we all believe is still correct. It's just those of us that say we don't believe are in rebellion. It's the age old prodigal type argument.

 

We all really believe in "god" but some of us just want to be "bad" so we say we don't so we can indulge ourselves.

 

I always have to ask myself when I'm going to start being "bad" because if my life IS being "bad" then being "bad" is boring as all get out. I imagine there are coma patients that are leading a more exciting life than I do.

 

mwc

[Shyone]

 

Disbelief==disobedience. So you're not disbelieving you're just disobeying. So to say we all believe is still correct. It's just those of us that say we don't believe are in rebellion. It's the age old prodigal type argument.

 

We all really believe in "god" but some of us just want to be "bad" so we say we don't so we can indulge ourselves.

 

I always have to ask myself when I'm going to start being "bad" because if my life IS being "bad" then being "bad" is boring as all get out. I imagine there are coma patients that are leading a more exciting life than I do.

 

mwc

I can't believe they are ALL disobeying Zeus.

 

But, according to their argument, that seems to be the case.

[ogilvy]

[quote

But I would have had similar responses, but then again, I never met anyone who actually deconverted (some who left churches, but not the faith itself).

Same with me. I never met anyone who had deconverted. I wonder if I had, would it have got me thinking. I had plenty of conversations with unbelievers, but I just thought they were 'blinded by Satan' and so were not'credible'. It's absolutely amazing how I went from being 'blinded by Satan', to 'believing', to discovering 20 years later that I had been deluded by Christianity. I don't have credibility myself, any more!

[Houndies]

I find as an "ex" that when I try to explain to a christian that I am no longer a believer I think they dont really believe me. Its like the person I am telling hears the words and nods but it seems like deep down they are just thinking its a phase. They dont seem to grasp the fact that someone can be happy and good w/out some ridiculous religion. The other thing I notice is when I start to point out all the flaws, contradictions, and plagarism in their belief system, some of them actually AGREE! But they are still christians!? I dont get it. Its like being in a sinking ship and water is pouring in and the sheep just sit there on deck watching the boat go down. "look at all the water! Our boat is sinking! baa baaa! but lets just sit here." ayecarumba!

[Guest Davka]

Its like being in a sinking ship and water is pouring in and the sheep just sit there on deck watching the boat go down. "look at all the water! Our boat is sinking! baa baaa! but lets just sit here." ayecarumba!

That's because the ship isn't really sinking, it just looks that way. It's a test of faith. If you just ignore the facts for long enough, your Fairy GodFather will wave his magic wand and carry you away to Candy Mountain.

[ShallowByThyGame]

The logical step a lot of them get stuck at is admitting that their personal feelings and emotions are not proof of God. You have to be able to step outside of your own life and consider humanity as a whole to really gain insight into religion, or anything else really...

 

Personal experiences are useful for teaching social concepts, but never proving them.

[Ro-bear]

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care? Can't blame their God for it? Can't blame their god for what their book says it is? That's what people tell them? They don't actually KNOW any deconverts that they've actually talked to?

 

I'm afraid it is important for many believers that a person's decision to leave the cult reflects badly on that person. Otherwise, God's punishment of them would seem unjust.