Asimov Posted August 26, 2005 Author Share Posted August 26, 2005 I have a bit of a problem with the idea that I have to show anyone anything. I had to meet a standard as a xtian in order to "let christ shine through my life." Fortunatly I got out before the WWJD bullshit came out, but now I don't want to prove anything to anyone. This is probably a reactionary response, and I do find that my morals in many areas are more solid now than they ever were as a xtian, but I don't want to be the beacon light for atheism or any other such nonsense. That's playing in their court and playing to there game. We are just people. Some fit the mold of conventional community standards better than others, but we are just people. Haha, Vigile, I said IF we want to. Some people (such as Neil) think that we do need to fight against this igorance. I agree to an extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Haha, Vigile, I said IF we want to. Some people (such as Neil) think that we do need to fight against this igorance. I agree to an extent. Oh, I want to fight it also. It screws up lives and more. I just don't want to fight it based on their rules. Like I said, it's a bit reactionary, but hey, I like to be emotional every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I was thinking for a second, after reading the "Ex-Christian is an Oxymoron" thread. Why do you guys care that they make these claims that you were never Christians? Does it matter really what they think? Not only do they believe that, but they think that God exists, that snakes talk, that donkeys talk, that demons can possess people and a myriad of other ridiculous things that clearly have no bearing in reality. If they are that stupid then really, why bother trying to correct them? As we've seen before it doesn't matter what YOU tell them, they still think it's true. The only way they will change their mind is if they either experience it themselves or if they spend time with you guys. I am not offended or hurt that Christians denounce my ex-christianity. I expect it. They have to. To accept that I could truly be Christian then just walk away causes lots of problems. For the Calvinists it violates basic doctrine. For others it defies their understanding of how god interacts with man - how can one taste of his riches and then turn away? I wish to impress on them the sincerity and reality of my Christianity so that it causes them to see the error of their doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeccasStillSeeking Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I was thinking for a second, after reading the "Ex-Christian is an Oxymoron" thread. Why do you guys care that they make these claims that you were never Christians? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, in the long run, nothing that these Fundies say or think is worth two squirts of mule piss. But having loser-asshole after loser-asshole blithely tell me that my agonizing experience of true but unanswered faith "never happened" is, for lack of a better word, triggering. It's incredibly hard, having these smiling idiots condescendingly tell me that I was "never a true Christian" when I threw my HEART AND SOUL into it for twenty years, suffered terribly because of it, and cannot get that time back. It's blatant, horrible victim-blaming, judgmental as hell, completely discounts my experience and is generally the emotional equivalent of having some asshole deny that you're wounded after he's ripped off scab after scab to check. I can't help but be riled when some bible-brainwashed asshole claims that I "absolutely must" have left because I was sinful and wanted to be hedonistic, since after all no other conclusion will fit his narrow-ass worldview, and it's easier to parrot his pastor than THINK and be COMPASSIONATE. /I/ know that I left for legitimate reasons, and I also know that a Fundie's opinion is not independently formulated through rational thought, or in any other way worth listening to. But it still hurts, and I wish I could make it stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeccasStillSeeking Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Point well taken Asimov (you too Eponymic). I don't need to unleash pure valkyrie rage in the face of blind idiocy. Can I still dish out paper cuts? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *nudgenudge* *hands over the lemon juice and salt* *wanders off again* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 *nudgenudge* *hands over the lemon juice and salt* *wanders off again* Mmmmwwaaaaahaahaaa! *holds lemon juice and cardboard paper over Troy/Parture's fingers.....just waiting* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 Why I feel it is offense: It is prejudice. Plain and simple. Prejudice is hurtful to anyone who receives it. People may develop a thick skin and try not to let it hurt them, but the hurt is always there. We are social human beings, not rock-people. When my friend's preacher mother says to her, "I'm praying for you." It is offensive. Who are you to judge her spirit? "Fuck you!" is a typical reaction to that crap. Likewise when someone prejudges someone who was a Christian and left it as having never been sincere, that is passing judgment and just blowing us off without any regard to us as individuals and the depth of our souls we put into it! It doesn't matter who it is who is saying it, whether it's a family member or it's some stupid brain-washed moron Christian kid who does it. I respond to these individuals hoping that someone, even if not them, who has any intellegence might open their goddamn eyes and realize what horse's asses they are. And what's more, maybe cause them to look at what kind of asses they've become buying into the rhetoric of their churches. Is it futile to let them know it is offensive? I don't think so. Mostly, it's about us saying we don't have to accept their bullshit by letting them know they are wrong on many levels in what they are doing. It is standing up for ourselves. Rant over.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Why do you guys care that they make these claims that you were never Christians? To be honest, I don't really care what they think, or what they believe. It simply doesn't matter to me in the least. No one's opinion matters more to me than my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Man-Oh-Man... Good replies all, but what Beccasstillseeking said hit my nail on the head. Thank you for saying what I couldn't quite put into words (your whole post). There's twenty years (in my case 30) that I'll never get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 What bugs me more than anything is when we use their very own bible to prove to them that nobody has ever been a Real Christian based upon the requirements and "signs that follow" a True Believer, and they either completely ignore the points that you're making, or they pull the "context" card on you. Rotten, dishonest idiots anyway. I would give some examples, but I really don't feel like presenting bible verses right now. (can't think of the ones I'm talking about but I know they're there. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 I see a lot of emotional responses (reasons are obvious), and I can't help but think..."why bother?" A couple points that I feel I need to bring up. 1) A few of you say that it is prejudice. Well yes, but as I said before that "push-back" tactics rarely work, and the results tend to be less than effective. If they act like children...well, treat em like children (figuratively speaking). And by that I don't mean condescending tones and leaving them in the car while you go shopping, I mean look down on them like they don't know any better. They claim that they must maintain a "child-like faith", well then they are being willfully childlike and should be treated as such. 2) A few of you say that you wasted your time. Don't you think that the fact that you did pull out, that you did realise a truth. Some people go their whole lives without finding something as important as that. Truth is valuable, knowledge is power. I think those things that you obtained in your struggle far outweigh the amount of years. Something is only wasted if you think it's so. 3) This hate that some of you harbour, is merely a tool to help you cope with the emotional trauma...I think it's unnecessary. Our emotions are a double-edged sword, if used properly can be of great service to us. But an uncontrolled mind can harm itself with it's own passions. Of course, I could be wrong and you don't have to listen to anything I say. I am learning as well, and have to control my emotional outbursts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 I would give some examples, but I really don't feel like presenting bible verses right now. (can't think of the ones I'm talking about but I know they're there. ) I love using their own resources against them....although it's using a lie to disprove a lie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Why do you guys care that they make these claims that you were never Christians? From my perspective, it pisses me off because it is a denial of the harm I experienced and the trauma I went through to overcome it. Analogy: While in court testifying against your rapist, he claims "it wasn't rape because you didn't fight back". When you experience harm, it's truly frustrating when others deny you experienced harm. That said, I'm mostly past the anger now. Now I thank them for the complement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I love using their own resources against them....although it's using a lie to disprove a lie... The thing is though, doing so rarely has the desired "effect" on them. You would think that by showing them that they are accusing someone of never being something that they claim to be, even though they could never achieve becoming what it is that they claim to be, would make SOMETHING in their head click and make them realize how absurd their beliefs really are. But, it just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Thanks Asimov. You made me think and you're right. There's no need to be offended. But it still is a bit stupid of a Christian to argue that way, since then they make the definition of True Christian a very loose definition, and in the end, no one is or were a Christian, ever. So defending my previous faith is basically defending the current Christians from attack too. And why the heck should I do that??? I'm about to change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 and in the end, no one is or were a Christian, ever. I added emphasis on your "ever", because this is the crux of the religion. According to their idol bible, the only place a Real Christian could possibly exist is within the contexts of the pages of the bible. In a story! A magical story! Being a True Christian is an impossiblity for anyone in or out of the faith. This is Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Why do you guys care that they make these claims that you were never Christians? The arrogance of the claims is what annoys the hell out of me. It pisses me off to be told by somebody who knows nothing about me or my life that I was never really a Christian, when in fact I most certainly was - and a very devout one at that! Back in my really fanatical fundie days, if somebody had told me that I would one day be a strong atheist and regard my then cherished beliefs as a stinking but hilarious load of mythological bullshit, I would have told them that they were crazy! But, here I am! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Carrion Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I think of it like this: The minute a Christian starts spewing such proscribed, stock-arguments at you, you know that they are no longer worth debating with, since they are not doing you the courtesy that they evidently expect every time they start "preaching the word," that is, having the common intellectual decency to crticially and rationally consider the claims they make and changing or questionning your perspectives based upon their veracity. Why should you deign to even take part in such a fundamentally hyopcritical process? Furthermore, you can be certain that those utilising such arguments have no critical capacity of their own or even the willingness to listen to arguments or perspectives that lie outside of their hard-won self delusions. In effect, the minute they start using the stock arguments their friends, pastors etc have conditioned them with, you have won the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 The real issue isn't about little Jimmy Christian heaping us into a category and dismissing us. It's about what it represents. The people who we do care about - family members, people were are friends, etc, do it because it's what they're taught is the truth. Our anger isn't really even at them, or little Jimmy - it's at the insidiousness of religions to create this unjust or hurtful rift between human beings in the name of a holy god! It's the institutionalization of simple neat categories that lumps people together and tosses them aside without regard for individuality, 'I am a sheep, you are a goat.' (One major reason why religion causes more harm to humanity than good). Rather than angrily "pushing back", I'll stand up and try to voice reason in the hope that it gets out there and may cause some people to think about their actions. Am I trying to change them and am only setting myself up for disappointment? I have no illusions that it will cause the change, but I feel it needs to be said and becomes something for them and others to consider. Ideas have power, and to simply let those ideas go without challenge is to give them free reign to continue their cancerous evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I wish that it didn't bother me.....but it DOES! but....I realize letting someone get to me is giving too much of myself to them...I gave too much for too long... I dont want them to be able to get to me... I think getting to that point is part on the UN-brainwashing.... Asimov makes some good points....something to think about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 I would be worried if none of you did get emotional over it at some point. There is always a limit to how much abuse one can take, but I think we all need to exercise a certain amount of control over how we react and don't let our emotions get the best of us. Anyways, I'm glad some of you have something to think about. These were just some thoughts I was having and thought I'd share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I am not offended or hurt that Christians denounce my ex-christianity. I expect it. They have to. To accept that I could truly be Christian then just walk away causes lots of problems. This thread is rather inspirational, and it occurred to me while reading that point of trashy's post that maybe understanding the christian stance is the way to go. At least for me it seems both emotionally and reasonally most effective reply to accusations of never really being christian is to clarify that i can understand why they are likely to view it that way: it is the only explanation that doesn't contradict their beliefs. Perhaps the ex-christian could drive home the point that they, too, understand and used to trust the "once saved, always saved" dogma and yet God didn't want or wasn't able to keep them 'saved' when they found their beliefs falling apart. Thus, the sooner or later conclusion for them is that there probably isn't a god willing to 'save' them. After explaining this it should be reasonable to express one's hopes that the christian would now understand their point of view, although one would also quite well see why the christian still might judge them lying. Besides, that kind of friendly, yet firm attitude seems to me a powerfully contrasted mature reaction against a cheap accusation, and should appeal to the christian's sense of properness and politeness, should they have such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Asimov: Hey guys, why don't you stop reacting to people on an emotional level? People: Okay Asi, seriously we are human. Unless we suddenly all turn into the Terminator, shit like that isn't going to happn. If someone says something offensive, people are going to be offended. Like if you drop a birck, it's going to smash your toe. It's a pretty much given outcome. Man, this "age of control" thing sucks shit majorly. I'm with Kierkegaard, where is the age of passion? Why can't it come back? Why am I surrounded by wanna be robots!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 Asimov: Hey guys, why don't you stop reacting to people on an emotional level? People: Okay Asi, seriously we are human. Unless we suddenly all turn into the Terminator, shit like that isn't going to happn. If someone says something offensive, people are going to be offended. Like if you drop a birck, it's going to smash your toe. It's a pretty much given outcome. Man, this "age of control" thing sucks shit majorly. I'm with Kierkegaard, where is the age of passion? Why can't it come back? Why am I surrounded by wanna be robots!? What kind of passion are you looking for, Cerise?? The kind of passion that causes people to incite holy wars...or the romantic passion? I didn't say be unemotional robots...being able to control ones emotions does not mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWarrior Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Man, this "age of control" thing sucks shit majorly. I'm with Kierkegaard, where is the age of passion? Why can't it come back? Why am I surrounded by wanna be robots!? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think it's more like "wannabe Spocks". Boring! Give me some of that passion stuff. Sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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