The Supernatural

[Snakefoot]

Ordinary Clay please get down to my level and tell me what you consider to be a supernatural event and why?

 

 

He will not do it. Watch...

[Shyone]

I believe in space, and that isn't matter. Though there's usually matter in it.

Awww, what's the matter?

 

Just kidding.

[Ouroboros]

I have no energy for this.

[Snakefoot]

I have no energy for this.

That's so bad it's good.

[OrdinaryClay]

So energy and matter are the same? I don't have a scientific background. Ordinary Clay please get down to my level and tell me what you consider to be a supernatural event and why?

Yes, that is what physics teaches us. See here and following posts for my definition of the supernatural.

 

I am saying we have not got a unified field theory in physics that covers all the observations of subatomic particles and so we don't really know what matter really is.

The unified theory is about unifying gravity(General relativity) and with the standard model of particle physics. The standard model and general relativity do a very, very god job of describing reality according to the empirical evidence we now have - even with out unification. They are superbly accurate theories. We can say with confidence that matter equals energy.

 

The supernatural MAY exist, but you can't prove it by using any story or Biblical text. What is your ground for accepting it?

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is grounds enough for me, personally. Why I have this belief is a deep and long story, that sooner or later I plan to engage in, but first the ground work needs to be laid. As I have said multiple times I have thought through my belief in Christianity. My belief is not shallow.

 

This is a difficult question. How do you prove a thing or an event is something supernatural (outside nature)? Does it purely depend on the definition of the terms?

That is a good question. The root of the question is how do you distinguish it from natural phenomenon. See my post above (along with many follow up posts) to see my take on this.

[Ouroboros]

I have no energy for this.

That's so bad it's good.

The punisher is here. Beware.

 

My kids usually kill me when I do puns.

[Snakefoot]

I have no energy for this.

That's so bad it's good.

The punisher is here. Beware.

 

My kids usually kill me when I do puns.

They're too young to appreciate the cleverness, and I'm too old to miss it.

[Shyone]

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

You have repeatedly cited these three favorite sons of God as the three major representatives of your faith. I think you may want to reconsider.

 

Now that we have established that the supernatural is not only nonexistent but nonsensical, and now that we have also established that the concept of God is self-contradictory and illogical, we can move on to why you think that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is, in fact, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and why you worship him.

 

I don't think you really believe that your god is the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

I imagine that you think that all of us are God's children, and all of the people back in the old days were God's Children. You have read, however, that God chose the Hebrews to be His special tribe to the exclusion of the other tribes on earth, and he revealed his truth only to those people. Because they were better? Because they worshipped him and knew that He had delivered them from Pharaoh?

 

The Hebrews got off to a rough start. It seems that they didn't even know who was doing what for them.

 

4. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

 

Of course, they were no worse than the citizens of Palestine who worshipped other gods. But he drove the Canaanites, his other children, from their homes, slaughtered them "with a great slaughter", and massacred the innocent captives.

 

Were they not His Children? Did they not deserve His mercy and forgiveness; His protection; His revelation?

 

Joshua used trickery, ambush and stealth when he attacked Ai. "Twelve thousand men and women fell that day--all the people of Ai." Very impressive! Except that he was killing his own children.

 

Even Rodney King had a better strategy than that. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

No, I don't think you believe in this petty tribal god that denied his other children in favor of some particular tribe of maruading Jews. You believe in a god that promotes peace, cooperation, evangelism, mercy and mutual respect towards all of his children.

 

But that god doesn't exist either.

[OrdinaryClay]

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

You have repeatedly cited these three favorite sons of God as the three major representatives of your faith. I think you may want to reconsider.

I'm glad you brought that up. I use that description so there is no question as to which God I serve and worship.

Exo 3:6

(6) And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

No, I've made the right choice.

Jos 24:14-15

(14) Now, then, fear Jehovah, and serve Him in sincerity and truth. And put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah.

(15) And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

 

 

Now that we have established that the supernatural is not only nonexistent but nonsensical, and now that we have also established that the concept of God is self-contradictory and illogical, we can move on to why you think that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is, in fact, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and why you worship him.

 

I don't think you really believe that your god is the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

I imagine that you think that all of us are God's children, and all of the people back in the old days were God's Children. You have read, however, that God chose the Hebrews to be His special tribe to the exclusion of the other tribes on earth, and he revealed his truth only to those people. Because they were better? Because they worshipped him and knew that He had delivered them from Pharaoh?

 

The Hebrews got off to a rough start. It seems that they didn't even know who was doing what for them.

 

4. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

 

Of course, they were no worse than the citizens of Palestine who worshipped other gods. But he drove the Canaanites, his other children, from their homes, slaughtered them "with a great slaughter", and massacred the innocent captives.

 

Were they not His Children? Did they not deserve His mercy and forgiveness; His protection; His revelation?

 

Joshua used trickery, ambush and stealth when he attacked Ai. "Twelve thousand men and women fell that day--all the people of Ai." Very impressive! Except that he was killing his own children.

 

Even Rodney King had a better strategy than that. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

No, I don't think you believe in this petty tribal god that denied his other children in favor of some particular tribe of maruading Jews. You believe in a god that promotes peace, cooperation, evangelism, mercy and mutual respect towards all of his children.

 

But that god doesn't exist either.

You have repeatedly cited this proclamation. I think you may want to reconsider.

 

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

[Snakefoot]

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

You have repeatedly cited these three favorite sons of God as the three major representatives of your faith. I think you may want to reconsider.

I'm glad you brought that up. I use that description so there is no question as to which God I serve and worship.

Exo 3:6

(6) And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

No, I've made the right choice.

Jos 24:14-15

(14) Now, then, fear Jehovah, and serve Him in sincerity and truth. And put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt, and serve Jehovah.

(15) And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

 

 

Now that we have established that the supernatural is not only nonexistent but nonsensical, and now that we have also established that the concept of God is self-contradictory and illogical, we can move on to why you think that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is, in fact, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and why you worship him.

 

I don't think you really believe that your god is the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

I imagine that you think that all of us are God's children, and all of the people back in the old days were God's Children. You have read, however, that God chose the Hebrews to be His special tribe to the exclusion of the other tribes on earth, and he revealed his truth only to those people. Because they were better? Because they worshipped him and knew that He had delivered them from Pharaoh?

 

The Hebrews got off to a rough start. It seems that they didn't even know who was doing what for them.

 

4. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

 

Of course, they were no worse than the citizens of Palestine who worshipped other gods. But he drove the Canaanites, his other children, from their homes, slaughtered them "with a great slaughter", and massacred the innocent captives.

 

Were they not His Children? Did they not deserve His mercy and forgiveness; His protection; His revelation?

 

Joshua used trickery, ambush and stealth when he attacked Ai. "Twelve thousand men and women fell that day--all the people of Ai." Very impressive! Except that he was killing his own children.

 

Even Rodney King had a better strategy than that. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

No, I don't think you believe in this petty tribal god that denied his other children in favor of some particular tribe of maruading Jews. You believe in a god that promotes peace, cooperation, evangelism, mercy and mutual respect towards all of his children.

 

But that god doesn't exist either.

You have repeatedly cited this proclamation. I think you may want to reconsider.

 

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

Don't get satire?

[agnosticator]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

 

Don't patronize us. We were Christians, or do you deny that?

[Ouroboros]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

 

Don't patronize us. We were Christians, or do you deny that?

That's right. I don't think he (or she) really understands how much time and effort some of us put into the religion.

 

I was so serious that I even had 10% drawn automatically from my bank account to the church. I worked for the church too for a while. I could barely afford food for my family, but God never did any financial miracle. I never saw one single miracle, ever. I wanted to. But never saw one. (Except for a video of a lady who had stigmata, and all my friends were so blessed and happy. I was suspicious but accepted it as a miracle. Later it was revealed she was a fraud. So much for believing in the supernatural.)

 

 

 

OrdinaryClay,

 

I will offer you a challenge. This is your chance of a lifetime. I'm giving you the chance to prove that the supernatural exists and that miracles happen.

 

I have a son who is in wheelchair. He was hurt many years ago in an accident.

 

I'm offering you to pray for a miracle, make him walk again, and I wouldn't have any problem converting.

 

Just know this, many people before you had the same chance but blew it. No one came through. They prayed, but nothing happened. Either the have no faith or they believe in the wrong God.

 

It's up to you.

[Legion]

OrdinaryClay,

 

I will offer you a challenge.

 

Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

[Shyone]

No, I don't think you believe in this petty tribal god that denied his other children in favor of some particular tribe of maruading Jews. You believe in a god that promotes peace, cooperation, evangelism, mercy and mutual respect towards all of his children.

 

But that god doesn't exist either.

You have repeatedly cited this proclamation. I think you may want to reconsider.

 

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

One day you will confront the incongruous distorted god you think you beleive in, but not today apparently.

 

Your use of the words "deny" and "dislike" is very revealing. You don't have a clue.

 

You also don't understand the idea of discussing a concept with understanding of your opponent's position. You believe in God; I don't. I could argue that Captain Ahab was really mean and nasty, but it doesn't mean that I believe the Captain Ahab is a real person.

 

I did believe. In God that is. And then it slowly became obvious that Yahweh was no more real than Rah, Baal or Marduk. I learned that Christianity held no more truth than Judaism, Hinduism or Islam. I realized that the idea of God is self-contradictory and impossible. I found the bible to be a mess of conflicting, politically motivated, and fantastical writings that had been rewritten so many times that the authors themselves would not have recognised the writings. I found prayer to be pointless and ineffective. And I knew that the world operates by natural principles that are absolutely not influenced by any "outside agents."

 

A friend of mine said it well when he wrote that education made belief in God impossible. Keep learning.

[Ouroboros]

OrdinaryClay,

 

I will offer you a challenge.

 

Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

If he use that excuse, it only shows that Clay knows it won't happen, or in other words, he can't put the money where his mouth is. He doesn't really believe. It's just talk but no walk.

[mwc]

I will offer you a challenge. This is your chance of a lifetime. I'm giving you the chance to prove that the supernatural exists and that miracles happen.

Whether or not it's a test as Legion has offered it's would be too predictable if we were to pray and a healing were to occur. We're talking about the "god" of dice-rolls after all. I've met this "god" at the casino. She's a real bitch. Answers to everyone but me. Met her sister, the "god" of the buffet. That went pretty well.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

I will offer you a challenge. This is your chance of a lifetime. I'm giving you the chance to prove that the supernatural exists and that miracles happen.

Whether or not it's a test as Legion has offered it's would be too predictable if we were to pray and a healing were to occur. We're talking about the "god" of dice-rolls after all. I've met this "god" at the casino. She's a real bitch. Answers to everyone but me. Met her sister, the "god" of the buffet. That went pretty well.

 

mwc

Ah, you're right. It's only miracle when we don't expect it.

 

Which means that Jesus didn't do any miracles since he intentionally healed people and expected the results. Jesus tested God, and he expected the outcome, hence not miracle or supernatural.

 

It's good to know. The definition now proves that Jesus must have healed people with natural means.

 

Jesus also supposedly knew he was going to be resurrected, so he expected it, which means... it was not a miracle.

[Deva]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

Why can't we do both?

 

We don't believe he exists, but we can still say that if he did we don't like him.

 

 

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is grounds enough for me, personally. Why I have this belief is a deep and long story, that sooner or later I plan to engage in, but first the ground work needs to be laid.

 

I don't like your round about way of trying to prove the Bible is true, either. That is, after all, the ONLY item under discussion if we are talking about the God of Abraham, etc. It is NOT discussing whether or not the supernatural is possible, whether or not we are materialists, or what kind of evidence we will accept. You are trying to find some way to trap us into saying something that will support your only "proof" which is the BIBLE. I think it is dishonest not to come right out at the beginning and state your purpose and your position if you intend to start a debate.

[Ouroboros]

I find Voldemort despicable in the Harry Potter books... does it mean that Tom Riddle did exist for real?

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

To be clear I am going to sum up my impression of the definition of supernatural being used:

 

A free willed agent that exists beyond all bounds of the natural world and its laws

Who is detectable (meaning, I believe, effects the natural world in ways we can observe)

Who is unpredictable (because it is utterly free from all that we understand based on the natural world)

And who is thus all powerful (Having no constraints in our world)

 

To prove a supernatural occurrence performed by this agent, such as the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, would open the possibility for any other claim of supernatural to be true. A supernatural event would not require evidence, would not need to make logical sense and could defy everything we know about reality. Thus even contradictory supernatural events are possible. This agent could be responsible for every supernatural claim ever made. It could have stopped the earth from rotating for the Isrealites, it could have brought Mohammad to heaven on a winged horse, it could have given Joseph Smith the golden plates, it could be represented by every single Hindu god and goddess. Any pregnancy could be a result of immaculate conception, Any person who ever dies has the remote chance of being raised from the dead. We would have no ability to deny any of them because by its nature reasoning and physical evidence or possibility are not required. An unpredictable all powerful supernatural agent could do whatever it wanted whether it made sense or not. Our idea of sense, of logic, of reality, of morality becomes utterly irrelevant when dealing with such an entity.

 

At this point, where could we possible go? Any and all reference points we had to measure reality is gone. Proving one supernatural event opens to the door for absolutely any claim to be true. This is why people who fully believe in miracles today often equally believe in demonic interference in every day events such as loosing an object. Thye pray rather than take their children to the hospital because they believe that the laws of nature will be suspended just for them because their supernatural god has the ability to do so whenever he chooses. They believe in witchcraft, in demonic possession, and that supernatural forces are at work everywhere. Maybe you do too. After all it is the ‘logical’ conclusion belief in the supernatural leads to. The death of reason.

[Shyone]

I find Voldemort despicable in the Harry Potter books... does it mean that Tom Riddle did exist for real?

But you can still, on some level, appreciate Voldemort's motivations, and that makes him like us.

 

We are Harry Potter, and we are Voldemort.

 

In the star wars movies, the emperor (and his minion Darth Vader) are the apotheosis of evil, but the evil is only part of the Force. There is a dark side, and a light side.

 

That's why gods such as Ahura Mazda have different "aspects" of both good and evil. Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu are both emanations of Ahura Mazda.

 

But the world is not binary, and good men do bad things, but creating a binary type of scheme makes it easier to categorize and control the parts of us that really want to do things that aren't nice.

[OrdinaryClay]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

 

Don't patronize us. We were Christians, or do you deny that?

I'm not patronizing you.

 

I have no idea if you were a Christian. If you say you were then Okay.

[Shyone]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

 

Don't patronize us. We were Christians, or do you deny that?

I'm not patronizing you.

 

I have no idea if you were a Christian. If you say you were then Okay.

Ex-Christian.net should give you a clue.

[OrdinaryClay]

I will offer you a challenge. This is your chance of a lifetime. I'm giving you the chance to prove that the supernatural exists and that miracles happen.

Whether or not it's a test as Legion has offered it's would be too predictable if we were to pray and a healing were to occur. We're talking about the "god" of dice-rolls after all.

No, a God of choice. There is an important difference between random and choosing.

[OrdinaryClay]

I can't tell if you deny His existence first or dislike Him first. I find it odd that people seem to gleefully assume He exists while denouncing Him, and then quickly flip to disclaiming His existence.

 

Why can't we do both?

 

We don't believe he exists, but we can still say that if he did we don't like him.

You can do as you say, of course. Somehow it is never phrased that way, though. That was my point.

 

 

I'm a Christian. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is grounds enough for me, personally. Why I have this belief is a deep and long story, that sooner or later I plan to engage in, but first the ground work needs to be laid.

 

I don't like your round about way of trying to prove the Bible is true, either. That is, after all, the ONLY item under discussion if we are talking about the God of Abraham, etc. It is NOT discussing whether or not the supernatural is possible, whether or not we are materialists, or what kind of evidence we will accept. You are trying to find some way to trap us into saying something that will support your only "proof" which is the BIBLE. I think it is dishonest not to come right out at the beginning and state your purpose and your position if you intend to start a debate.

I'm sorry you are disappointed. I've made no secret about my faith. I proclaim it plain and bold. The truth of God has nothing to do with you're being "trapped" into saying anything. That is silly. If He is true, nothing you or I say will change that fact.

 

Regarding my choice of subjects, I would beg to differ. They do matter. The principals that underly our thoughts are important. Whether a supernatural exists is very important to all of us even those that don't believe in it.